Steve Rogers War Games

Originally posted by Newjak
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Except this isn't math and even if it was that was a horrible example. For one you aren't dealing with a simple equation. You would be dealing multiple ones trying to figure them all out at the same time as quickly as possible. Something I'm sure SH would actually do a lot better than any grad student unless that Grad student happened to be a better Mathematician which could be possible.

Thankfully though Steve is the best strategist, technician, leader, and has the best ability to change the dynamic of a battlefield to suit his needs.

If you honestly think that kind of valuable information shared over two years isn't gonna give his team an edge that is you being asinine. Steve will be able to give insights that other people won't. He'll be able to teach his squad things others can't because he is the best and he is the best because he is better than others because he knows more/ can do work them out faster/ and knows what to look for better.

All things he can teach to his squad.

So yes I wil take a squad of Cap trained soldiers over everyone else on this list because of those reasons.

Add in the fact Cap has live ffeeds into the battle and can coach from the sidelines I think it's a huge advantage.

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It's was an incredibly apt comparison. This is a simple combat scenario. It is. This type of warfare has been perfected, there is nothing he could come up with that hasn't already been documented and executed by military strategists. You know wins at a game of tag? The fastest kid. Being a genius is irrelevant. There isn't anything that can be brought to the table here, that Punisher hasn't seen in Vietnam. You can say "Mumble mumble Caps the best... mumble mumble... he'll think of something" until you are blue in the face... but you are wrong. Everything's already been thought of, and his opponents are better at these specif elements of warfare than he is. Propose a single viable tactic that will swing this in Caps favour that non of the other players have seen before.

Originally posted by Newjak
No their not, that's you pretending there. Steve routinely teaches and spars with people all the time.

And? Where are his Nightwing and Jason Todd? Where is his Black Widow? Wolverine and Batman train people, frequently. I know a guy who rolled with GSP once when he came to his gym... but he wasn't trained by him. Who is the pinacle of Cap's training abilities? Falcon? Sharon Carter? Bucky was primarily trained by the military and Russian secret soldier programming. Batman trained Jason every day for a year before he let him patrol as Robin. Wolverine teaches at least two hours a day at Xavier Institute. Cap spars with his other Avengers from time to time... that is hardly the same thing.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
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It's was an incredibly apt comparison. This is a simple combat scenario. It is. This type of warfare has been perfected, there is nothing he could come up with that hasn't already been documented and executed by military strategists. You know wins at a game of tag? The fastest kid. Being a genius is irrelevant. There isn't anything that can be brought to the table here, that Punisher hasn't seen in Vietnam. You can say "Mumble mumble Caps the best... mumble mumble... he'll think of something" until you are blue in the face... but you are wrong. Everything's already been thought of, and his opponents are better at these specif elements of warfare than he is. Propose a single viable tactic that will swing this in Caps favour that non of the other players have seen before.

And? Where are his Nightwing and Jason Todd? Where is his Black Widow? Wolverine and Batman train people, frequently. I know a guy who rolled with GSP once when he came to his gym... but he wasn't trained by him. Who is the pinacle of Cap's training abilities? Falcon? Sharon Carter? Bucky was primarily trained by the military and Russian secret soldier programming. Batman trained Jason every day for a year before he let him patrol as Robin. Wolverine teaches at least two hours a day at Xavier Institute. Cap spars with his other Avengers from time to time... that is hardly the same thing.

If you think it's just a system of warfare that isn't going to change I would love to meet you on the battlefield because history is full of times where that simply isn't the case.

Well Steve did take a rag tag group of heroes and abilities and turn them into a very devastating fighting force. This includes team work and the ability to function on the battlefield as a unit.

Oh and he's done it twice Civil war and Fear Itself.

Originally posted by Caps Conscience
Your crazy give me the number and the fire power. Your talking a platoon and a half vs. a squad at most. If you think that out of that 50 soldiers there aren't going to be any stellar ones on par with with the ones that survived Castle's, or Wolvie's trainning you are cookoo.

Originally posted by Newjak
Go ahead and ask person whose ever been in combat no one situation is ever going to play out exactly the same as another. The ability to critically think and understand how to adapt is important.

If you think it's just a system of warfare that isn't going to change I would love to meet you on the battlefield because history is full of times where that simply isn't the case.

The real world has a plethora of important strategic and political elements that could come to play and could be manipulate for the advantage of one side or the other... but none those thing exist in this scenario. This is a 50 v 50 fight. That's it. There is land to hold. No resources to capture. It's 50 guys trying to kill / incapacitate each other, and once that happens the game ends. There is no long term goals or survival considerations. Again: this is an incredibly simple combat scenario. When the fight is over they go home, the only goal here is to win a fight, in war the fight is a means to an end used to accomplish the real goal. The team that can avoid detection, set traps and execute hit and run ambushes the most effectively will win. Those are the tactics and strategies that come into play in this type of combat, with the limited resources the players have at their disposal.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The real world has a plethora of important strategic and political elements that could come to play and could be manipulate for the advantage of one side or the other... [b]but none those thing exist in this scenario. This is a 50 v 50 fight. That's it. There is land to hold. No resources to capture. It's 50 guys trying to kill / incapacitate each other, and once that happens the game ends. There is no long term goals or survival considerations. Again: this is an incredibly simple combat scenario. The team that can avoid detection, set traps and execute hit and run ambushes the most effectively will win. Those are the tactics and strategies that come into play in this time of combat, with the limited resources the players have at their disposal. [/B]

Originally posted by Newjak
A simple combat scenario that can still play out a million different ways depending on what happens so excuse me if I still think you're wrong and full of it.

I can walk down the stairs a million different ways... but I'm still going to end up at the bottom of the stairs when I'm finished.

There isn't a tactical genius "win button" for this time of combat. You stay hidden. You scout your enemy. You lay traps and ambushes. You pick the opportune moment of attack. The team who is better trained at those elements will win... and in at least three of these it won't be Captain America's team.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The real world has a plethora of important strategic and political elements that could come to play and could be manipulate for the advantage of one side or the other... [b]but none those thing exist in this scenario. This is a 50 v 50 fight. That's it. There is land to hold. No resources to capture. It's 50 guys trying to kill / incapacitate each other, and once that happens the game ends. There is no long term goals or survival considerations. Again: this is an incredibly simple combat scenario. When the fight is over they go home, the only goal here is to win a fight, in war the fight is a means to an end used to accomplish the real goal. The team that can avoid detection, set traps and execute hit and run ambushes the most effectively will win. Those are the tactics and strategies that come into play in this type of combat, with the limited resources the players have at their disposal. [/B]

Originally posted by Uriel005
Basically I think Newjack is saying he'd take 50 stormtroopers over 25 jedi.

He thinks this is a game of risk, but it's not or if it is it's not the strategic part anyway, where you capture valuable territory for troop deploment and form alliances, it's just two equal forces rolling dice at each other... and one side is rolling more die than their opposition.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He thinks this is a game of risk, but it's not or if it is it's not the strategic part anyway, where you capture valuable territory for troop deploment and form alliances, it's just two equal forces rolling dice at each other... and one side is rolling more die than their opposition.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Basically I think Newjack is saying he'd take 50 stormtroopers over 25 jedi.

IMO, The difference is the soldiers skill level isn't going to be anywhere near that much.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually asked a friend whose currently a marine about the topic. He'd back a squad of seals in jungle/urban/unconventional settings over his fellow marines... He also happens to be one of those guys who is filled with esprit de corps... so I'd take the admission with a bit of weight.

Originally posted by Silent Master
IMO, The difference is the soldiers skill level isn't going to be anywhere near that much.

As someone that actually went through basic, I'll pick the instructor that is best at inspiring people to give it their best.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Basically I think Newjack is saying he'd take 50 stormtroopers over 25 jedi.

Originally posted by Newjak
That assumes Steve's troops are lesser than others which you can't prove.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I can walk down the stairs a million different ways... but I'm still going to end up at the bottom of the stairs when I'm finished.

There isn't a tactical genius "win button" for this time of combat. You stay hidden. You scout your enemy. You lay traps and ambushes. You pick the opportune moment of attack. The team who is better trained at those elements will win... and in at least three of these it won't be Captain America's team.

So you can end up at your destination in a number of ways. And where did I say this is about holding territory or resources. This is a battle and everything I said is still relative to that discussion.

Originally posted by Uriel005
He won't push them to their breaking point and beyond. CIS yes but Steve generally cares too much to push his troops to the point of death.

Steve caring about his troops is what will make him push them to give their best.

Originally posted by Silent Master
As someone that actually went through basic, I'll pick the instructor that is best at inspiring people to give it their best.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Steve caring about his troops is what will make him push them to give their best.

Taking normal people on their missions might get the few that survive some good exp, but then it'll be Frank/Wolverine's 3 soldiers vs Cap's 50.

BTW, setting traps, ambusing and using snipers aren't dirty tactics in regards to warfare, it's SOP.