Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Spoiler:
Anakin and Obi-Wan, let alone solo!Kenobi, weren't in a position of legitimate dominance over Opress. Savage, on the other hand, beat the hell out of them, dropped a platform on them, knocked them the fvck out of Dooku's chambers, drove them into the hanger, and flattened them with telekinesis despite being wounded. There's more actual evidence favoring his superiority over them than the reverse, especially since despite all that experience and all those advantages (numbers, distractions, etc.), they came off looking worse.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir

Spoiler:
Anakin and Obi-Wan, let alone solo!Kenobi, weren't in a position of legitimate dominance over Opress. Savage, on the other hand, beat the hell out of them, dropped a platform on them, knocked them the fvck out of Dooku's chambers, drove them into the hanger, and flattened them with telekinesis despite being wounded. There's more actual evidence favoring his superiority over them than the reverse, especially since despite all that experience and all those advantages (numbers, distractions, etc.), they came off looking worse.

Eh?

1. Opress didn't "beat the hell" out of anybody. He spent more time on his knees then a Thai hooker, so this is moot.

2. Opress opened himself up to immediate death within moments of being flanked by Obi/Ani during the hostage skirmish. Really.

3. Because they had no footing on the hover pods, he was able to seize the momentary advantage and drop the current pod on top of them. This isn't a show of battle awesomeness so much as a show of sheer luck. Next you'll be arguing that Sidious outbattled Yoda because he happened to have a rail on his side of the pod.

4. Opress TKing them out of the chamber is not clear dominance because

a - He was enraged at losing Ventress and Dooku, and thus channeled his rage into that singular push. In each instance of Opress using "exceptional" TK, it's almost always rage/pain which brings it about, and always in small bursts.

b - They got right back up again. Hell, when Obi-Wan and Anakin TK'd each other they didn't get up that fast. How are you basing superiority on a Force push? Really? So Yoda is superior to Sidious because he can Force push him?

5. If driving them into the hangar is indicative of superiority, then Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were superior to Maul, having "driven" him back into the circular chamber of death.

Or perhaps you know, they were aggressively fighting and he was intelligently defending, waiting for an opening. Could be that too.

6. Rawr!Force TK wave, caused by imminent droid-fire death and barely contained rage, which no one was expecting or defending against, and had no decisive advantage because he used that opportunity to run away means nothing, basically. I mean, if Opress was so goddamn superior, why did he run away from prone opponents? Could it be he knew he wasn't going to win? Or was his martial superiority imminent in his running away really fast?

I'm still not seeing the validity of pro-Opress arguments here. I admit that, in the context of the thread, Ventress AND Opress may prove to be a challenge for Kit/Obi and may even beat them. But this idea of Opress being clearly head and shoulders above Obi-Anakin is incredibly silly. He doesn't even have a comparable victory on his hands to equate to beating one of them separately.

Zampanó
You just commented recently about how you have missed Advent's "more comprehensive debating style."

Calling names ("Darth Derp"😉 doesn't lend itself to a comprehensive argument; it made me not want to read to the end. Being angry about something like this is silly and stupid.

Chill the **** out.

Really?

You realize that my initial response was to this, right:

Lol how could anyone possibly give wisdom to a guy who just denies clear evidence shown to him on screen.

If Lucas told you himself Oppress is a good tier above the likes of Obi-Wan/Ventress you'd still deny it. You'd probably rationalise your denial by saying he wasn't making a canon statement, or whatever crap you usually come out with to justify your insane arguments.

DARTH POWER basically attacked from a position of disdain, saying I "denied clear evidence", that I rationalize denial, and I have apparently usual "crap", that I come out with to "justify [my] insane arguments."

Then I basically gave him a chance in defending his position with something other than his swelled arrogance, and he simply stonewalled me with more ignorance. I then e-mocked him in the most immature way for sport.

How does this offend you and concern you?

When did I do anything to warrant being talked down to from you?

This isn't the first time you've called me out, Nemmy. If you have an issue, let's get it in the clear please, because I'm not fond of being ridiculed by someone I haven't consciously wronged. If you don't approve of my routine of using unyielding opponents for fun (no homo), then by all means, ignore me. But don't talk down to me like you're a saint. That's just insulting.

😐

Opress casually removed them from his back the moment he felt so inclined, he outmaneuvered them on the platform and left them to die, he hurled them from Dooku's chambers with contemptuous ease (where is the evidence that that was the product of uber!rage?), he drove them back into the hanger despite the fact that Anakin Skywalker is a Force-boosted anomaly in excess of Savage in that he simply gets stronger as a fight progresses (not to mention the fact that they drove Dooku back during their duel in Revenge of the Sith, who is exponentially more skilled than Opress), and again flattened them with telekinesis.

For someone who's keen on arguing that either one is superior to Opress, you sure seem to be fairly light on evidence. How bizarre that despite their infinitely greater combat experience, superior numbers, and so forth that the only moment of dominance they had was due to a distraction engineered by a third party and was then undermined with ease by Opress?

mmm

To answer your question as to why the "superior" Opress ran, you're [willfully, I suspect] neglecting two important facts, one at play during each duel against the Jedi: [a.] During the first duel, Opress was under orders to return Katuunko to Dooku, which takes priority over fvcking around with Jedi and [b.] during their second duel, Opress was deep in enemy territory, a massive Separatist dreadnought aboard which were legions of hostile droids, two Jedi Knights, and Count fvcking Dooku. While I believe he could best Obi-Wan and Anakin, do not mistake my belief for delusion: He was hardly invincible and those odds don't bode well for him.

Interesting how you interpret his dropping of the platform as luck. For someone who's keen on throwing out the fanboi pejorative to all who oppose him, need I remind you that your oft' cited favorite character from the films is Obi-Wan Kenobi? 😂

Spoiler:
And I'm certainly not arguing that his use of telekinesis against the Jedi is a decisive demonstration of superiority, just pointing out where he put them on their asses and where they didn't return the favor.

I think I'm going to hit the sack (no jokez).

Spoiler:
Before you unleash your fury a la Opress in an attempt to defeat me, my apprentice, remember that I am teasing you. (Though my points are sincere.)

This isn't the first time you've called me out, Nemmy. If you have an issue, let's get it in the clear please, because I'm not fond of being ridiculed by someone I haven't consciously wronged. If you don't approve of my routine of using unyielding opponents for fun (no homo), then by all means, ignore me. But don't talk down to me like you're a saint. That's just insulting.

What I don't like is that you turn from an intelligent, reasonably eloquent contributor into a caricature of the worst the internet has to offer at the drop of a hat. When you are talking about TOR, for example, your posts are intelligent, optimistic, and have several times come close to convincing me to buy the game, despite the flaws everyone else is always moaning about. However, this last post of yours is unpleasant. No joke, I read it in my head with this voice: 5 minute philosophy-- Voltaire wants your feedback. It turns you from someone I respect a lot into something of a joke.

I think it is just the amount of time you've been here; I never had to deal with the 2005 level of shit (Sorgo, for example, never made a post I liked while he was socking last year). Thank you for calling me on it, because in retrospect I realize I've been kind of a ***** without a conscious reason why. Having to explain opened my eyes, if not yours.

WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS? WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS?

Lol jk

[i]

This isn't the first time you've called me out, Nemmy. If you have an issue, let's get it in the clear please, because I'm not fond of being ridiculed by someone I haven't consciously wronged. If you don't approve of my routine of using unyielding opponents for fun (no homo), then by all means, ignore me. But don't talk down to me like you're a saint. That's just insulting. [/B]

qft here actually. what is up with you recently red?

Originally posted by Zampanó
What I don't like is that you turn from an intelligent, reasonably eloquent contributor into a caricature of the worst the internet has to offer at the drop of a hat.

You do realize, that this kind of banter was always part of this forum and certain members - including myself - enjoy a little entertainment of this sort, when oposition in debates turns out to be...not worth a intelligent and or reasonable contribution? Which Janus, mind you, still provided, even if it came in the guise of some mocking comments.

That aside: You're dealing with the same place, in which certain people have accused certain other people of alcoholism, being drug addicts, retardation, living in trailer parks and - in one case - demanded from some member to commit suicide. In that light, Janus reply was not even close to "worst of this forum", much less "worst of the internet". You should pay a visit to 4chan to see the latter. 😉

Nai, note the word "caricature." I'm not saying that it is unforgivable. In fact, until challenged I couldn't have articulated the thought at all. It is just a really ineffective rhetorical strategy; when I hear it I forget about all his other points. Edit: I've been to 4chan. I know what lurks in the hearts of trolls.

tj, I've moved into a dorm and going to class full time. I'm trying to be the sort of person who reads books. I've been doing my homework (which is new). There are enough people around that being anti-social is more work than less. I found this cool play called "Sure Thing" that had an okay performance on youtube.

I flipped over my handlebars yesterday.

Life is good.

I found this cool play called "Sure Thing"

Miguel?

Originally posted by Zampanó

tj, I've moved into a dorm and going to class full time. I'm trying to be the sort of person who reads books. I've been doing my homework (which is new). There are enough people around that being anti-social is more work than less. I found this cool play called "Sure Thing" that had an okay performance on youtube.

When I moved into a dorm and started going to class full time, absolutely nothing changed. I had already liked to read books, homework was still the production of dumb papers and regurgitation of stuff I secretly looked up on wikipedia, and the Internet was still place to insult stupid people and post funny pictures.

The only thing I've gotten out of college is abject terror at the thought of ever using the words "I think that."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Good lawd, fanboy rage engage!

Let's see if our winner, "DARTH POWAH", can actually manage a decent rebuttal!

Have to admit it is difficult arguing against kiddish arguments.. You ever tried arguing with kids? Its very irritationg just like this is getting.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Translation: LOLDERP! I'm acting all witty and sarcastic and then immediately saying you're in denial of Opress' league, even if I haven't conclusively proved Opress' league. Burden of proof is on you, derp!

Considering it was Opress throwing Obi-Wan around, and you made this completely one sided thread, its upto you to prove exactly how Obi-Wan could possibly be a match for Opress.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Translation: LOLDERP! I'm still arguing that all perceptions should be uniform and that subjective viewpoints and judgments should not exist because I saw X and therefore if you didn't see X, you're in denial; it's impossible that your point could also be valid because you didn't see it through my eyes.

Candid Rebuttal: Really, Darth Derp, we have to come to a foundation for objective debate before we can continue. If you insist that "LOL stuff is obvious no subjectivity", then I'm not wasting any more time with you. If you cannot point out specifics in media you and I both saw and draw those specifics into a half-assed argument to support your LOLASSERTION, then we're done here. I'm not wasting my time with your foolishness.

Are you planning to go into politics? Because thats twice now you've refused to answer my question, and decided to go on a rant again.

Do we need more proof that what we saw on screen to say that :

1) Maul> Qui-Gon
2) Dooku> Obi-Wan

Answer the question and then we can discuss your rant.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Second point, Opress being humiliated in combat by Dooku,

Yeah because we've never seen Obi-Wan being completely humiliated by Dooku have we??? Oh apart from every time they fought that is.. But apparaently we need more proof then their on screen fights 😕

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
killing two unknown and unimportant Jedi, and later being really strong physically in combat with about four people (none of which he defeated)

None of whom he defeated, but three of whom he was defeating, and defeating quite badly..

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Never mind that Kenobi has tons of victories under his belt,

None of whom have the feats Opress does (except perhaps Anakin)

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
that he's known as the foremost defensive fighter in the entire Jedi Order,

Wnt help him when he's being force chucked all over the place, or being physically over powered by someone who can pu Dooku on the floor..

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
and that he performs much better against Dooku at a time before his peak than Opress ever did at his peak or ever for that matter.

Yeah because we've seen Obi-Wan put Dooku on the floor that time in ROTS... Remember?? Cause I dnt! Obi-Wan's never been anything less than useless against Dooku.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If him being really strong and looking like Darth Maul makes you moist, then so be it. Just admit to the bias. But don't pretend that you're arguing intelligently with things like "LOL it's obvious he's uber, end of debate, Obi sux!"

Urmm yeah Im the "Fanboy" here.. Its not obvious because Im guessing, We know because thats what we were shown on screen.. He was shown to be superior with the Force and in close comabt.. What more proof do you need?? Just like we know Maul > Qui-Gon. Or do you need further proof to what we saw in TPM?? Il say one thing though, I would'nt put Opress above Anakin (who he was also throwing around) because we know Anakin's showings are sporadic, and from the ROTS novel, we know he's always held back.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So... basically, you're saying that Anakin and Obi-Wan suck for not absorbing a rage-fueled Force wave in the middle of a firefight with droids, but Opress - who all but runs into Sith lightning seven, eight times in a single setting - is somehow better?

What makes you think they could absorb it, when a couple of episodes earlier they were both getting force choked by Ventress? Obi-Wan and Anakin are not known for their Force YK feats.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Are you even reading this before you click "Submit Reply"?

I really wish I wasnt.. And iv spent long enough replying to your rant, which you probably dnt even deserve a response to, but Im bored now.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You're [b]missing the point so badly it's sad really.

Opress' rage, which fuels his Force powers above the norm, are entirely conditional on his hate and abuse at the hands of his masters/enemies. Thus in order to argue "Opress will become stronger and overpower them based rage alone", you have to do the following:

1. Establish how Opress will become "enraged" in a neutral fight against two Jedi who have not been previously abusing him.

2. Establish how Opress won't blindly run at them like a stupid shit-chucking ape and get destroyed because he's in a rage.

3. Establish where in the hell Opress has used TK to conclusively KO an opponent in combat.

4. Establish how "peak" in the original post somehow translates into "Opress is enraged, but no one else gets buffs"?

I mean really, are you going to grasp at straws now? So should I argue "Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto, both eating bota, versus Opress who is in rawr!emo mode and Ventress who just broke a nail"?

What universe are you from, exactly? [/B]

Im not getting into this Rage debate now. Because Im tired of replying to you. But basically by the end of the episode, Savage feels betrayed by everyone, and can very easily get into a Rage.. And thats also how Dooku trained him, to feed off his rage. But for arguments sakes lets just debate with what we saw Before his "Rage".,

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Opress' showings take place in a very small timeframe, this training being the one which immediately precedes the fight with Anakin/Obi and Ventress/Dooku.

Proof of time frame please.. And proof of the number of training sessions he had with Dooku before his confrontations with Obi-Wan and Anakin. He clearly was a factor to be dealt with by the time he faced Dooku with Ventress. Whilst in that first training session he wasnt a factor at all.

Opress's training was clearly much much faster than the training of any Jedi. We can presume that has something to do with the magic the nightsisters used on him.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Wait, so let me get this straight...

You think Opress > Obi-wan because he pushed the narrow standing supports of a ship and its own heavy weight caused it to tumble over the side?

You see those sparks? That's him TKing the supports He's not lifting the whole ship up and chucking it, or TKing the entire side of the ship (because if he did, it would move without tipping over, having been hit by equal force).

Doing that is not outside of the realm of Anakin or Obi-Wan, and furthermore, it's not a conclusive way of winning a battle. Unless Obi-Wan is strapped in to said starship and Opress pushes its supports over and Obi-Wan can't get out in time, guess what? This doesn't mean jack.

LOL LOL Theres no point in argiung because you're just in complete denial of all Opress's feats while just making up what Obi-Wan can do! Prove that feat isnt beyond Obi-Wan or shut it. Im done. Thanks for wasting my time!

Everyone should take some lolicon and calm the **** down.

Zam, take double lolicon (twins?).

btw I agree that we could do without the insult stuff.

Originally posted by Lucius
I had already liked to read books,

I like to read books too!

The trick is being the sort of person who actually does. Internet is unbearably addictive for me (I have six harry potter fanfictions open right now) and I'm working on editing my priority list.

Originally posted by Zampanó
I like to read books too!

The trick is being the sort of person who actually does. Internet is unbearably addictive for me (I have six harry potter fanfictions open right now) and I'm working on editing my priority list.

I can understand that. Like I've been reading The Information on my kindle, but because I have nearly a 1000 books on my kindle I keep getting distracted by some new heroic fantasy novel I picked up. Or something like Snow Crash, but Snow Crash is alright because Neal Stephenson blows my mind.

Originally posted by Zampanó
I don't have an issue with you. I like you.

What I don't like is that you turn from an intelligent, reasonably eloquent contributor into a caricature of the worst the internet has to offer at the drop of a hat. When you are talking about TOR, for example, your posts are intelligent, optimistic, and have several times come close to convincing me to buy the game, despite the flaws everyone else is always moaning about. However, this last post of yours is unpleasant. No joke, I read it in my head with this voice: 5 minute philosophy-- Voltaire wants your feedback. It turns you from someone I respect a lot into something of a joke.

I think it is just the amount of time you've been here; I never had to deal with the 2005 level of shit (Sorgo, for example, never made a post I liked while he was socking last year). Thank you for calling me on it, because in retrospect I realize I've been kind of a ***** without a conscious reason why. Having to explain opened my eyes, if not yours.

The short reply to all this is really, it's part sport and part annoyance with perpetual ignorance. Having debated here for what? Six years now? I'm more apt to make fun of foes to create enjoyment rather than have to basically argue again the same points I made eloquently clear in my previous post(s). Like in this case, DP is basically ignoring the rules of engagement and arguing out of the depths of his ass, while I made some detailed observations and rational arguments which he typically avoided or answered with assertions.

Don't let it annoy you. If the voice in your head drives you mad, I suggest imagining Simon Templeton doing my posts. I don't mind giving respect to people who are interested in genuine debating (and even though Advent and I rarely saw the same side of things, I strongly respected her way of expressing her viewpoints), but rabble rattling its cage and calling it logic will always illicit a vicious response.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
😐

Opress casually removed them from his back the moment he felt so inclined, he outmaneuvered them on the platform and left them to die, he hurled them from Dooku's chambers with contemptuous ease (where is the evidence that that was the product of uber!rage?), he drove them back into the hanger despite the fact that Anakin Skywalker is a Force-boosted anomaly in excess of Savage in that he simply gets stronger as a fight progresses (not to mention the fact that they drove Dooku back during their duel in Revenge of the Sith, who is exponentially more skilled than Opress), and again flattened them with telekinesis.

For someone who's keen on arguing that either one is superior to Opress, you sure seem to be fairly light on evidence. How bizarre that despite their infinitely greater combat experience, superior numbers, and so forth that the [b]only moment of dominance they had was due to a distraction engineered by a third party and was then undermined with ease by Opress?

mmm

To answer your question as to why the "superior" Opress ran, you're [willfully, I suspect] neglecting two important facts, one at play during each duel against the Jedi: [a.] During the first duel, Opress was under orders to return Katuunko to Dooku, which takes priority over fvcking around with Jedi and [b.] during their second duel, Opress was deep in enemy territory, a massive Separatist dreadnought aboard which were legions of hostile droids, two Jedi Knights, and Count fvcking Dooku. While I believe he could best Obi-Wan and Anakin, do not mistake my belief for delusion: He was hardly invincible and those odds don't bode well for him.

Interesting how you interpret his dropping of the platform as luck. For someone who's keen on throwing out the fanboi pejorative to all who oppose him, need I remind you that your oft' cited favorite character from the films is Obi-Wan Kenobi? 😂

Spoiler:
And I'm certainly not arguing that his use of telekinesis against the Jedi is a decisive demonstration of superiority, just pointing out where he put them on their asses and where they didn't return the favor.

[/B]

____________________________________________________

^ Everything above this line is wrong except for general spelling and the timestamp.

SM
Having debated here for what? Six years now?

Oh is that what you call it now. sneer

SM
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^ Everything above this line is wrong except for general spelling and the timestamp.

You have posts above that line. sneer

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
You have posts above that line. sneer

I get to exclude my own post because I make up the rules about what is and isn't valid. Monopoly of the truth, ftw.