Ventress and Oppress versus Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Like in this case, DP is basically ignoring the rules of engagement and arguing out of the depths of his ass,

Actually everything Iv argued is from On Screen T-Canon feats and showings.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
while I made some detailed ........ rational arguments

Neveeerrrrr Happened..

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
which he typically avoided or answered with assertions.

And yet Im the one who never got an answer to "Do we need more than On-Screen evidence to prove that Maul > Qui-Gon and that Dooku > Obi-Wan..." Which I asked about 3 times.. So who was avoiding answering back?? Hmmm..

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Don't let it annoy you. If the voice in your head drives you mad, I suggest imagining doing my posts. I don't mind giving respect to people who are interested in genuine debating (and even though Advent and I rarely saw the same side of things, I strongly respected her way of expressing her viewpoints), but rabble rattling its cage and calling it logic will always illicit a vicious response.

Needless insults are immature and usually signals the frustrated life of the Insulter. End of.

Thats why despite the number of names you called me I never stooped down to your level.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually everything Iv argued is from On Screen T-Canon feats and showings.

Basically, you argued your opinion in this manner:

"X happened, because I saw it happen. Therefore, X is true."

If that's arguing, I successfully argued everything I've ever seen successfully.

This argument fails to address the following:

1. Context.
2. Objectivity
3. Support for Assertion

The context is important because Opress' 'victory' against Obi-Wan and Anakin is entirely dependent upon the limited fighting room of the hovering platforms and the fact that they passed up a clear instance to outright murder him seconds into the 'battle'.

Objectivity is important because you're arguing your own perception as correct without the third item: support. You say "Opress dominated Obi-Wan/Anakin. They had no chance. He's in another league. He's better." When I ask for proof, you say this: "lol, I saw it. You must be in denial".

That isn't proof. You cannot demonstrate specific examples in the video which we all saw and further spell out the logic behind why X means victory for Opress.

Meanwhile, I argue how the context of the fight, using sources mind you, indicates that Opress - while formidable - is not conclusively better than the Jedi he's up against. His strength and size are an advantage, but tactically, he is a fool. He rushes headfirst into battle and danger, he's entirely reliant upon his own rage to fuel his powers to a level above merely impressive, and he's demonstrated lower martial showings against Dooku, who can act as a measurement to Obi-Wan in a sense.

You simply ignore my points, repeat your own endlessly, and dismiss me out of hand. That's argumentum ad lapidem for those at home keeping track.

Neveeerrrrr Happened..

You'd be surprised, but in the real world, those are arguments.

And yet Im the one who never got an answer to "Do we need more than On-Screen evidence to prove that Maul > Qui-Gon and that Dooku > Obi-Wan..." Which I asked about 3 times.. So who was avoiding answering back?? Hmmm..

You've deliberately skirted having to provide proof for anything you've attempted to argue, while needing an answer for the above is a ridiculous way to stack the lack of argument in your favor.

On-screen evidence is still open to discussion and interpretation, because of a wonderful little thing called subjectivity. It is the onus of the debater to use the source material and evidence to illustrate their well-thought out points. An excellent example of this is the fight between Yoda and Sidious. Many people here have seen the fight, and yet come away with different conclusions. Things that were contended included the lifting of the senatorial pods and whether or not Sidious was disarmed.

So simply having visual evidence does not render all opinions and arguments null and void. There's still a common ground to be found. And having a logical argument is the only way to do it.

Saying "Opress is better because I saw him TK some Jedi" doesn't equate to a rational argument, especially when the purpose of the thread is to debate Opress in a neutral setting against Obi and someone entirely new, Kit Fisto. There's also the point of having Ventress in the mix; when Opress fought alongside Ventress, he basically got in her way and dash-slashed at Dooku to no effect whatsoever, only becoming a threat when he got angry.

So really, what does your posturing prove?

Needless insults are immature and usually signals the frustrated life of the Insulter. End of.

I'm sorry, but when you come out of the woodwork and immediately declare all of my previous arguments to be the products of twisted viewpoints and insanity, you lose the right to play the righteous card, DP. To be fair, I gave you one shot to objectively defend yourself and you squandered it. That's one shot more than I give to most people who come out of the gate deliberately attacking my credibility without the least shred of proof.

Thats why despite the number of names you called me I never stooped down to your level.

Sure. Let me know when you can answer the following:

Opress' rage, which fuels his Force powers above the norm, are entirely conditional on his hate and abuse at the hands of his masters/enemies. Thus in order to argue "Opress will become stronger and overpower them based rage alone", you have to do the following:

1. Establish how Opress will become "enraged" in a neutral fight against two Jedi who have not been previously abusing him.

2. Establish how Opress won't blindly run at them like a stupid shit-chucking ape and get destroyed because he's in a rage.

3. Establish where in the hell Opress has used TK to conclusively KO an opponent in combat.

4. Establish how "peak" in the original post somehow translates into "Opress is enraged, but no one else gets buffs"?

When you answer these questions, maybe... just maybe, you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, keep playing with your Opress action figure and snorting copious amounts of blow.

SM
when Opress fought alongside Ventress, he basically got in her way and dash-slashed at Dooku to no effect whatsoever,

The Count's words to Ventress when she pursues him in the bowels of the ship confirm that he doesn't regard her as a credible threat without Opress.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
The Count's words to Ventress when she pursues him in the bowels of the ship confirm that he doesn't regard her as a credible threat without Opress.

Considering he can lift his finger and disable her in Dark Rendezvous, I think it's clear that she is never truly a threat. And since Opress was floored multiple times by Dooku in their sparring session, and routinely used as a shock absorber in the latter fight, Opress isn't much of a challenge either.

SM
Considering he can lift his finger and disable her in Dark Rendezvous, I think it's clear that she is never truly a threat. And since Opress was floored multiple times by Dooku in their sparring session, and routinely used as a shock absorber in the latter fight, Opress isn't much of a challenge either.

ermm

Not to halt your Dooku-induced erection, but the fact that the Count fled from them indicates, at the very least, they are a challenge.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
ermm

Not to halt your Dooku-induced erection, but the fact that the Count fled from them indicates, at the very least, they are a challenge.

That or the fact that the Jedi were about to show up and make it one big cluster ****.

The point remains that using sources, Ventress is no match for Dooku even on a good day, and Opress is not any better.

SM
That or the fact that the Jedi were about to show up and make it one big cluster ****.

Again, Dooku's words to Ventress indicate differently: "You're no match for me without your pet."

SM
The point remains that using sources, Ventress is no match for Dooku even on a good day, and Opress is not any better.

A match (i.e. equal)? No. A challenge? Yes.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Again, Dooku's words to Ventress indicate differently: "You're no match for me without your pet."

A match (i.e. equal)? No. A challenge? Yes.

It was pretty obvious that Dooku was dominating the fight until Opress got angry and got a huge jump in physical and Force strength. Even then, Opress' rage gave him only a momentary advantage. He was almost immediately removed from the melee via the superior Force abilities of Ventress and Dooku.

But that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto against Ventress and Opress would be a close fight, but Opress is getting far more credit than he deserves. Pretty much Opress' entire career consists of killing two unknowns and being abused by everyone while getting momentary bursts of berserker strength.

I mean really, this is like arguing Icewind Dale trilogy Wulfgar would beat Drizzt because he's really strong.

SM
It was pretty obvious that Dooku was dominating the fight until Opress got angry and got a huge jump in physical and Force strength.

No real dispute here, though I would refine your claim about Force strength. Opress's strength didn't increase, in that his midichlorian count didn't jump; he simply tapped into it. It was his power made manifest.

SM
Even then, Opress' rage gave him only a momentary advantage. He was almost immediately removed from the melee via the superior Force abilities of Ventress and Dooku.

How is it that you define Opress's advantage as momentary but paint the advantage afforded by combined use of power on the part of Dooku and Ventress as a definitive one?

mmm

SM
But that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto against Ventress and Opress would be a close fight, but Opress is getting far more credit than he deserves. Pretty much Opress' entire career consists of killing two unknowns and being abused by everyone while getting momentary bursts of berserker strength.

I mean really, this is like arguing Icewind Dale trilogy Wulfgar would beat Drizzt because he's really strong.

You'll find that your references to obscure fantasy RPGs are lost on me, for the most part. 😐

As for the rest, DP remains correct: Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't fare too well when pitted against Opress.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

"X happened, because I saw it happen. Therefore, X is true."

Lol it wasnt just me who saw it happen. Thats on screen evidence of Opress's clear superiority over Obi-Wan. When we see Obi-Wan put Dooku on the floor, or see Obi-Wan force TK Opress around the room, or Obi-Wan TK Ventress and Dooku together (even getting them by sruprise) then you have an argument here.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The context is important because Opress' 'victory' against Obi-Wan and Anakin is entirely dependent upon the limited fighting room of the hovering platforms and the fact that they passed up a clear instance to outright murder him seconds into the 'battle'.

Sound more like excuses to me. And not very good ones. Obi-Wan and Anakin have no excuse to be dominated so badly due to "limited space" and "hovering platforms".

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Objectivity is important because you're arguing your own perception as correct without the third item: support.

So its just "my perception" that Savage threw Obi-Wan and Anakin around, forced them back, whilst they never got one good hit on them even together???

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You say "Opress dominated Obi-Wan/Anakin. They had no chance. He's in another league. He's better." When I ask for proof, you say this: "lol, I saw it. You must be in denial".

Lol Iv constantly given proof. The episode was full of proof:

1) His force feats were beyond anything we've ever seen from Obi-Wan.
2) Even with the aid of Anakin friggin Skywalker, all Kenobi managed to do against Opress was get chuked around and put on the floor multiple times. Now im not going to pretend im a combat expert, but im pretty sure being on your ass is not a good position to be in mid-fight.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Meanwhile, I argue how the context of the fight, using sources mind you, indicates that Opress - while formidable - is not conclusively better than the Jedi he's up against.

Now thats just your completely speculative opinion, with nothing to back it up.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His strength and size are an advantage, but tactically, he is a fool. He rushes headfirst into battle and danger, he's entirely reliant upon his own rage to fuel his powers to a level above merely impressive, and he's demonstrated lower martial showings against Dooku, who can act as a measurement to Obi-Wan in a sense.

Lol He put Count friggin Dooku on the Floor! Let me know when Obi-Wan accomplishes anything close to that in combat against Dooku. In the meantime your arguments are baseless.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You've deliberately skirted having to provide proof for anything you've attempted to argue, while needing an answer for the above is a ridiculous way to stack the lack of argument in your favor.

In other words "Im not gna answer that DP because it would ruin my argument."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
On-screen evidence is still open to discussion and interpretation, because of a wonderful little thing called subjectivity. It is the onus of the debater to use the source material and evidence to illustrate their well-thought out points. An excellent example of this is the fight between Yoda and Sidious. Many people here have seen the fight, and yet come away with different conclusions. Things that were contended included the lifting of the senatorial pods and whether or not Sidious was disarmed.

Urmm yeah because that wasnt a one sided fight. They both got their hits in, and they were both thrown around at some point.

If however that was Yoda AND Mace fighting Sidious, and Sidious was chuking them Both around with the Force, and Forcing them Both back in Sabers as well, then that fight would not be very subjective at all.

But that obviously would never happen, because Sidious is not that much ahead of Yoda or Mace in combat.

Thats a rubbish example you've given there.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sure. Let me know when you can answer the following:

Opress' rage, which fuels his Force powers above the norm, are entirely conditional on his hate and abuse at the hands of his masters/enemies. Thus in order to argue "Opress will become stronger and overpower them based rage alone", you have to do the following:

1. Establish how Opress will become "enraged" in a neutral fight against two Jedi who have not been previously abusing him.

2. Establish how Opress won't blindly run at them like a stupid shit-chucking ape and get destroyed because he's in a rage.

3. Establish where in the hell Opress has used TK to conclusively KO an opponent in combat.

4. Establish how "peak" in the original post somehow translates into "Opress is enraged, but no one else gets buffs"?

When you answer these questions, maybe... just maybe, you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, keep playing with your Opress action figure and snorting copious amounts of blow.

Iv already responded to this. But Ok Il respond again. This whole idea of a one-off Force Rage thing that can not be repeated in fair combat is complete hyperbole.

Where is the evidence that it was a one-off anger boost, and not a moment of clarity, like ROTS Zone Anakin having the clarity to use his rage to defeat Count Dooku. Are you telling me that wasn't a legitimate defeat?! Or a legitimate use of his power that could be repeated if he could find that clarity again??

And of course it doesnt help Obi-Wan's case that even before Savage's apparent "Force Rage" he still didnt fair too well against him, even with Anakin's help, and still has done nothing in his whole history of TK feats to match Savage's pre-Rage TK Feats.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol it wasnt just me who saw it happen. Thats on screen evidence of Opress's clear superiority over Obi-Wan. When we see Obi-Wan put Dooku on the floor, or see Obi-Wan force TK Opress around the room, or Obi-Wan TK Ventress and Dooku together (even getting them by sruprise) then you have an argument here.

Sound more like excuses to me. And not very good ones. Obi-Wan and Anakin have no excuse to be dominated so badly due to "limited space" and "hovering platforms".

So its just "my perception" that Savage threw Obi-Wan and Anakin around, forced them back, whilst they never got one good hit on them even together???

Lol Iv constantly given proof. The episode was full of proof:

1) His force feats were beyond anything we've ever seen from Obi-Wan.
2) Even with the aid of Anakin friggin Skywalker, all Kenobi managed to do against Opress was get chuked around and put on the floor multiple times. Now im not going to pretend im a combat expert, but im pretty sure being on your ass is not a good position to be in mid-fight.

Now thats just your completely speculative opinion, with nothing to back it up.

Lol He put Count friggin Dooku on the Floor! Let me know when Obi-Wan accomplishes anything close to that in combat against Dooku. In the meantime your arguments are baseless.

In other words "Im not gna answer that DP because it would ruin my argument."

Urmm yeah because that wasnt a one sided fight. They both got their hits in, and they were both thrown around at some point.

If however that was Yoda AND Mace fighting Sidious, and Sidious was chuking them Both around with the Force, and Forcing them Both back in Sabers as well, then that fight would not be very subjective at all.

But that obviously would never happen, because Sidious is not that much ahead of Yoda or Mace in combat.

Thats a rubbish example you've given there.

Iv already responded to this. But Ok Il respond again. This whole idea of a one-off Force Rage thing that can not be repeated in fair combat is complete hyperbole.

Where is the evidence that it was a one-off anger boost, and not a moment of clarity, like ROTS Zone Anakin having the clarity to use his rage to defeat Count Dooku. Are you telling me that wasn't a legitimate defeat?! Or a legitimate use of his power that could be repeated if he could find that clarity again??

And of course it doesnt help Obi-Wan's case that even before Savage's apparent "Force Rage" he still didnt fair too well against him, even with Anakin's help, and still has done nothing in his whole history of TK feats to match Savage's pre-Rage TK Feats.

I believe what SM is trying to say is that Obi Wan's skill with a lightsaber is enough for Obi Wan to draw the fight out until he finds an opening to deliver the fatal blow to Opress. We know that Obi Wan is a defensive fighter and his skills with the blade is superior to Opress's.

However, I do agree that Opress will most likely be the victor in a one on one fight against Obi Wan. Opress's physical strength will make it a very huge risk for Obi Wan to go blade to blade with him, unless Obi Wan can strike a fatal blow early in the fight, and I don't see that happening if Dooku was unable to. Opress's far superior physical strength added with his tremendous power in the force gives Opress the greater advantage IMO.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I believe what SM is trying to say is that Obi Wan's skill with a lightsaber is enough for Obi Wan to draw the fight out until he finds an opening to deliver the fatal blow to Opress. We know that Obi Wan is a defensive fighter and his skills with the blade is superior to Opress's.

Im not really sure what he's trying to say.. I could take his arguments more seriously if he at least admit Opress was superior every time they faced each other, and clearly has better Force feats, and definetely did better against Dooku then Obi-Wan ever did.

But apparently everything that happened in that episode was subjective, and didnt really happen that way 😕

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, I do agree that Opress will most likely be the victor in a one on one fight against Obi Wan. Opress's physical strength will make it a very huge risk for Obi Wan to go blade to blade with him, unless Obi Wan can strike a fatal blow early in the fight, and I don't see that happening if Dooku was unable to. Opress's far superior physical strength added with his tremendous power in the force gives Opress the greater advantage IMO.

👆

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
No real dispute here, though I would refine your claim about Force strength. Opress's strength didn't increase, in that his midichlorian count didn't jump; he simply tapped into it. It was his power made manifest.

True, Opress' power is realized by his rage, in much the same way that Anakin tapped his when he got angry. But the argument then shifts to what can qualify as angering Opress enough to tap his in this fight? Lack of horn polish?

How is it that you define Opress's advantage as momentary but paint the advantage afforded by combined use of power on the part of Dooku and Ventress as a definitive one?

mmm

Because Dooku's Force powers were too much for Opress, in the latter's own words, no less. And I have reason to believe Ventress, with her considerable experience and better record of using the Force against foes, is consistently stronger. Rage Opress might momentarily overwhelm her, but again, that's borderline plot-induced uberness. Arguing Opress' peak as a constant is unrealistic.

You'll find that your references to obscure fantasy RPGs are lost on me, for the most part. 😐

You need to stop living in a cave in KY and get out in the world. Wulfgar and Drizzt are heroes of a NY Times bestselling series, that's been around since the late 80's and all but made Forgotten Realms mainstream.

As for the rest, DP remains correct: Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't fare too well when pitted against Opress.

Which really means that even though Obi-Wan and Anakin could have easily killed Opress in their first encounter, and he luckily was able to TK them into the ether and maintain the high ground on that narrow hovering pod, and later he was able to TK them back, and then attack at them really aggressively, they didn't fare well.

Let's ignore the fact that Opress' technique is pretty much below everyone else's and only his freak strength which was augmented by the Nightsisters gives him any edge, or that it was entirely situational that he outmaneuvered Anakin and Obi-Wan with his TK after they ignored a clear opportunity to murder him.... Suuuure.

It's a lot easier to argue for Opress when you ignore context.

And for the record, I'm going to just ignore DP. He's hopeless at this point. He's basically dismissing my arguments out of hand without direct refuting and going on to say I'll have an argument on my hands when I completely and totally agree with his viewpoints. Suuuure.

SM
Which really means that even though Obi-Wan and Anakin could have easily killed Opress in their first encounter

Even my undeniably brilliant intellect is struggling to come up with different variations of "Obi-Wan and Anakin were the beneficiaries of a distraction created by a third party, which won't be at play in this thread." mmm

Obi-Wan and Anakin never had any advantage over Opress that was the result of their own skill.

Uh, the fact that they could have killed Opress seconds into the first skirmish pretty much undermines that.

And Opress never had any advantages over them that weren't conditional on rage-TK use and environment advantages like the pod and the droids.

In a neutral setting, you have to argue Opress without any of those helping him. So yeah. Nice try.

SM
Uh, the fact that they could have killed Opress seconds into the first skirmish pretty much undermines that.

haermm

Only if you flagrantly disregard context and reimagine the events of the episode as something entirely different than what was actually depicted.

The only time that Obi-Wan and Anakin had any visible advantage over Opress, the only time in which they were in a position to neutralize him, was during the dogpile scene. Apparently it needs to be reiterated that the dogpile only occured because of Katuunko's escape, which distracted Opress, enabling the Jedi to get the drop (literally) on him.

Me
For someone who's keen on arguing that either one is superior to Opress, you sure seem to be fairly light on evidence. How bizarre that despite their infinitely greater combat experience, superior numbers, and so forth that the only moment of dominance they had was due to a distraction engineered by a third party and was then undermined with ease by Opress?

😬

SM
And Opress never had any advantages over them that weren't conditional on rage-TK use and environment advantages like the pod and the droids.

haermm

The platform and droids were advantageous to the Jedi, if anything. It enabled them to avoid engaging Opress in close quarters (which undermines his primary advantage: His strength, reach, and ferocity) and the droids in Dooku's ship were trying to kill him. So in what dimension does a terrain that enables one's smaller, weaker opponents to play to their strengths and third party elements (droids, Katuunko, etc.) that are trying to kill or foil one constitute an advantage for one?

mmm

SM
In a neutral setting, you have to argue Opress without any of those helping him. So yeah. Nice try.

😐

Call me crazy, but I'm sure Opress will do just fine slaying his opponent without floating, maneuverable platforms that work to his enemy's advantage and droids trying to kill him in the process. 😂

Why are you even still talking about that scene? Its obviously all PIS or circumstances. You'll never be able to use it as evidence for the superiority of either side so what is even teh point?

We're still talking about the scene because it illustrates the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin were unable to subdue Opress despite the incontrovertible fact that they enjoyed advantages over him (superior numbers, much greater experience, a third party distraction, etc.). Opress certainly isn't as skilled as the Jedi, but his physical advantages and ability to tap into his raw energy enabled him to come off better.

And likewise the Jedi had disadvantages and bad luck which were also utilised. The scene is PIS. I mean Christ was that scene stupid. The Jedi just hug him? Wtf? It proves nothing.