Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You want to ignore the majority of comics because they don't go the way you want them to, that's a ridiculous stance.
Take the Siege as an example, where Thor got overwhelmed by the Sentry (who was Void-juiced there).
1. Sentry bullrushed Thor in the midair and flew him out of Asgard.
Where was Thors super reaction time there? He already managed to dodge a lightspeeded attack 40 years ago.
He did it once, probably also twice, but it's not common for him to have superspeed and uber-reflexes, since he does not have these abilities.
That was very well shown when Spider-Man was outspeeding him like a pro.
I think in another comic Thor wanted to help Spider-Man because he thought that Absorbing Man would be too much for Spider-Man, yet Spider-Man was easily bouncing off here and there, totally fooling Creel who was not able to handle Spider-Mans speed.
Thor is not fast. Period.
2. Sentry was squeezing the crap out of Thor and left Thor no chance.
Thor went intangible once or maybe even twice 40 years ago. Why didn't he do it in that instance to get rid of Sentrys grip?
3. Sentry released Thor and brought the entire city Asgard down in one bullrush, while Thor was unable to intervene.
Why didn't he stop him with one of his powers? Was it already too late when Sentry released him since Thor was not able to keep up with the speed? That is actually what happened.
You see in Siege #3 the Voidsentry releasing Thor and taking off in immense speed, where Thor says: "No...".
In the next scan you see Voidsentry bullrushing through Asgard and bringing down the entire city, while Thor didn't even finish lunging out with Mjolnir and the only thing he can do is to again say: "No..."
I would like to post the scans, but the forum wants me to be well known for that, so :-7 Yeah.
Feel Free to check Siege #3 out for that. It happens in the last pages.
4. And in the end the Void was oneshotting Thor alongside with the Avengers easily.
Why didn't Thor prevent the Void from doing so? He was not even able to dodge Voids attacks, simply because he can't move at such a high speed to utilize it in combat.
While Gladiator is of course nowhere near Voids powerlevel, he still has his superspeed which would give him a serious fighting chance.
But yeah, my point is. If the characters would utilize a greater spectrum of their powers, we would have much more entertaining comic book fights.
And Thor would still be slow in the end of the day, yet he would have his advantages thanks to Mjolnir.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So, every time Thor fails to hit someone, it's the norm, but every time he does counter someone's speed or is able to fight someone with superspeed without being at an overwhelming advantage, it's PIS.
No. Ask yourself how often something like that is happening.
I would even go as far to say that Thor moves slower then Wolverine on a regular basis. It's not in his powerset to strike someone 20 times per second, or to dodge these 20 strikes per second.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So, every time Thor fails to hit someone, it's the norm, but every time he does counter someone's speed or is able to fight someone with superspeed without being at an overwhelming advantage, it's PIS.Riiiight.
This love affair with speed is ridiculous.
Mentioning Thor's high speed feats is using his high end 5%.
Really grabbing hermes (not in a fight) and has been used extensively is a good feat?
Countering QS what once. twice is a good representation?
Overall Thor doesn't display use of speed and his ability to counter it is questionable vs his displays of overcoming it.
Spiderman, rocked him, rocked.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So, every time Thor fails to hit someone, it's the norm, but every time he does counter someone's speed or is able to fight someone with superspeed without being at an overwhelming advantage, it's PIS.Riiiight.
This love affair with speed is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Enzeru
Just because he has shown it once or twice in the 60ties it does not mean that it's a standard move for him.
The regular Thor as we see him does not fight at a high speed, since he has not superspeed as one of his abilities.]
The regular Thor we see can react to speed blitzes and go toe to toe with any speedster. That includes Gladiator, Silver Surfer and Sentry. Just because you say its not part of his powerset to do so does not make it true.
Originally posted by Enzeru
[B]Yes, he can travel faster thanks to Mjolnir and yes, he has faster reflexes then a human, but they are nowhere fast enough to tag actual speedsters on a daily basis.
According to comics they are.
Originally posted by Enzeru
[B]That's just you wanting him to.
If he can't tag Spider-Man, who moves so fast, then he won't be able to tag Gladiator / Sentry / and so on, who move faster.
Lowballing.
Originally posted by Enzeru
[B]We are not using PIS in fights, and a character who inflict more damage thanks to his speed advantage should and would also use it.
Its not PIS when its every fight he's in with a speedster. It's just part of his powerset to do so.
Originally posted by Enzeru
Actually Silver Surfer is the superior character, if you want it or not.
He has a higher powerlevel and a higher power spectrum which comes more in handy. Additionally he is even faster when it comes to travel speed and faster in terms of combat ... Yeah, you know that aswell.
Iv already addressed this.
Stan Lee disagrees with you. And SS is one of his favorites. Go read Thor and SS's first encounter, and then you'll realise Thor is simply more powerful than SS. The Power Cosmic was ultimately no match for Mjolnir and Thor's godly strength.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Stan Lee disagrees with you. And SS is one of his favorites. Go read Thor and SS's first encounter, and then you'll realise Thor is simply more powerful than SS. The Power Cosmic was ultimately no match for Mjolnir and Thor's godly strength.
Stan Lee created Thor in the year 1960 and wanted him to be the most powerful superhero in the Marvel universe, yeah. That was his idea.
In the year 1966 the Silver Surfer appeared, created by Jack Kirby and was a more powerful being then Thor, probably Marvels top dog back then.
Later on other characters were created who were more powerful then these two.
Stan Lee is an awesome writer, I love that guy, but even his perception changes with the years and the progress of characters.
Take Sentry as an example. In Stan Lee's What If? #200 Sentry easily killed Thor. That was Stan Lees decision, he portrayed the character as vastly more powerful and even though it was only a What If? there was nothing illogical about it, since it portrayed the characters powerlevel which was always held back, since Paul Jenkins created the character in the year 2000 and wanted him to be more powerful then everyone else.
So yeah, what Stan Lee said in the year 1962 was a nice idea, but times are changing.
Originally posted by Enzeru
In the year 1966 the Silver Surfer appeared, created by Jack Kirby and was a more powerful being then Thor, probably Marvels top dog back then.
No. Thor was Marvel's top dog back then. And he was clearly shown to be a more powerful being than Surfer. Read their first encounter.
It didnt disrespect Surfer in any way. It showed he did have the power to match a god, and showed him stalemating Loki. But Mjolnir was more Powerful than the Power Cosmic. And Thor stronger than Surfer. Read it.
Originally posted by abhilegend
^Hulk has also reacted against every speedster he has faced like Gladiator, sentry, hyperion and many more, so he also has super fast reflexes?
Now that you can make an argument for being repeated PIS. But Thor has been shown to have glodly reflexes, to be able to see speedsters, to spin Mjolnir round faster than light in close combat, to have Mjolnir chasing his opponent, to have omnidirectional blasts...
The list just goes on for Thor's versatility to be able to deal with speedsters. He's not a one trick pony like Hulk.
Edit: Double post by mistake.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Now that you can make an argument for being repeated PIS. But Thor has been shown to have glodly reflexes, to be able to see speedsters, to spin Mjolnir round faster than light in close combat, to have Mjolnir chasing his opponent, to have omnidirectional blasts...The list just goes on for Thor's versatility to be able to deal with speedsters. He's not a one trick pony like Hulk.
Edit: Double post by mistake.
Originally posted by abhilegend
The thing is that none of these are exclusive to thor. I don't think that statements like "faster than lightning he commands" hold any weight. Everyone and their mothers have seen and reacted to speedsters, taking time to build momentum and rotating mjolnir is not a reflex feat for thor.
Really? How many people have reacted to a speed blitz from Gladiator?
Name me a few, when he was actually using his speed. Thor reacted when Glads was clearly using his super speed. The Human Torch as one example could not.
And no Thor doesnt take time to spin Mjolnir. Its something he can do instantly.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Similarly mjolnir chasing someone at lightspeed is not a speed feat for thor.
Urmm.. No its just a speed feat for Mjolnir, Thor's right arm in combat.
Originally posted by abhilegend
How does omnidirectional blasts fit into speed feat?
You really cant see how Omnidirectional blasts would help in hitting speedsters??
Originally posted by abhilegend
It's interesting that you call hulk reacting to gladiator, sentry, quicksilver and hyperion PIS when thor also has reacted to them and has been blitzed by same people who have blitzed hulk wolverine, spidey. Interesting.
Well it actually seems more CIS with the Hulk, because its clear those guys were not using their upper speeds in combat. Just as Thor was clearly not using his upper speeds or omnidirectional blasts when being hit by Spidey or Wolverine (2 characters who are basically marvel's batman in what they can accomplish)..
However Thor has fought beings like Gladiator when it was clear he was using his superspeed, and reacted and hit him back. As he has done against Silver surfer and other top brick speedsters. If you take Hulk's first fight with Silver surfer however, it was clear Hulk was having a hard time getting that first hit on Surfer. Something Thor has never had trouble with.
Thor in his powerset is cleraly too versatile to have too much trouble from super speedsters (UNLIKE HULK), and he also has never had trouble in actual comics hitting a top brick speedster (again UNLIKE HULK who's had to rely more on his opponents CIS to get in his share of hits and even still has been shown to have trouble hitting speedsters on occasions. A problem Thor has never had).
Originally posted by leonidas
well, that's what is supposed to happen. again, i have no problem with that. the issue i have is that when he loses fights, his 'confidence' is rarely alluded to before OR after the fight. hell, characters who doubt themselves ALWAYS get weak. a perfect example is the recently discussed hercules vs wrecking crew issue. thor was stabbed by crusader because he lost his faith in himself. spiderman has been through a simliar experience, as has daredevil. i'm sure many more have. i seem to recall times where both ironman and cap BOTH suffered from a lack of belief in themselves and lost battles because of it, only to return later to overcome their doubts and win the battle. wonderman is yet another clear example, suffering all manner of doubt after his 'death'.in all cases, 'confidence/belief' is overtly mentioned as the reason for their troubles. with glads, it seems 1 of 2 things are to be (usually) assumed:
1--he did not go INTO the battle at full confidence, or,
2--he somehow LOST confidence during the battlein BOTH cases, we are supposed to simply ASSUME one or the other because we are rarely TOLD. i mentioned it was a myth that he lost battles because he lost confidence. i say that because it is so rarely directly stated to be the case and i really don't see how we are supposed to simply assume that to be the case in all his losses. but, maybe that's just me.
In all cases, we should assume Gladiator is walking into the fight with a healthy body, and a healthy mind. Unless the comic specifically shows us his confidence/concentration is broken, or some form of psi dampeners are being used. Than we can label the scene, as a moment of weakness.
A better way to view this is, Gladiator actively internalizes psi energy to augment his strength, no different than how Cable augments his own with TK.
Originally posted by "Id"
I agree with you to an extant, but elements have been added where being confident, is not simply a mental state. But a state of empowerment, where Gladiator is fueling his body with mental energy, to increase physical prowess.In all cases, we should assume Gladiator is walking into the fight with a healthy body, and a healthy mind. Unless the comic specifically shows us his confidence/concentration is broken, or some form of psi dampeners are being used. Than we can label the scene, as a moment of weakness.
A better way to view this is, Gladiator actively internalizes psi energy to augment his strength, no different than how Cable augments his own with TK.
i agree, especially with the underlined part. that's what i've been saying all along.....
Originally posted by JakeTheBankthor doesn't have the powerset to deal with speedsters....hence the PIS when he does and why it isn't PIS when superman does.
So, every time Thor fails to hit someone, it's the norm, but every time he does counter someone's speed or is able to fight someone with superspeed without being at an overwhelming advantage, it's PIS.Riiiight.
This love affair with speed is ridiculous.
not a difficult concept to grasp, jake.
Originally posted by Starscream M
thor doesn't have the powerset to deal with speedsters....hence the PIS when he does and why it isn't PIS when superman does.not a difficult concept to grasp, jake.
Except all the times he's countered speedsters and outright beaten them (save Superman himself, but A.) Crossover which is treated as non-canon for the purposes of the forum, B.) Neither Superman nor Thor were really going all out imo, and C.) Superman barely beating Thor is perfectly acceptable in my book.)
Not to mention Thor doesn't have to tag them in the conventional means to strike them, which is something people forget. He doesn't have to swing a fist in their direction or Mjolnir. He can just as easily throw the hammer at speeds far faster than light, attack in multiple directions at once through omniblasting, an earthquake (for grounded speedsters), weather manipulation (though I can already see your response to this one, Starscream), etc.
And no, all of this stuff doesn't fall into the "5%" of his history. It's all pretty consistent stuff he's done and as such, valid in terms of a debate. You can't cling on to the moments where someone like Wolverine or Mongoose has "embarrassed" Thor and simultaneously ignore or think that all of the times (which are plentiful) that Thor has countered or fought someone with superspeed is PIS or in the minority, because, really it's not.
Furthermore, if you're going to assume that anyone with any degree of super speed suddenly becomes a forum god and proclaim that every moment in comics where they don't use their speed in an "agreeable" fashion is PIS, well, I guess 90% of their comics don't matter because they didn't use their speed right. And that, personally, is dumb.
If you're going to arbitrarily assume speedsters will do shit they've never done just because they're fast enough to conceivable do so, you may as well assume that all powersets, not just speed, can likewise be arbitrarily extrapolated to the nth degree based on what you think they should do given what they've done in comics.
jake, you watched that cinematic opening for DCUO...you saw how black adam beat flash (flash was running toward him at superspeed, black adam yells shazam and the lightning kills them)
thats PIS
you know why? because Flash should've been next to BA before he could even finish the word. I mean, flash, who can travel the world many times over in seconds, couldn't cover 30 feet in the time to say a word?
ridiculous. and comics is rife with this illogical stupidity.
When thor smashes his hammer down and the aftershock gets quicksilver, that is dumb, as the aftershocks should be slow to qs who should be able to outrun.
Speed kills. In real life, being faster is an almost insurmountable advantage. A boxer who punches fast and dodges fast is very hard to beat.
Originally posted by Starscream M
jake, you watched that cinematic opening for DCUO...you saw how black adam beat flash (flash was running toward him at superspeed, black adam yells shazam and the lightning kills them)thats PIS
you know why? because Flash should've been next to BA before he could even finish the word. I mean, flash, who can travel the world many times over in seconds, couldn't cover 30 feet in the time to say a word?
ridiculous. and comics is rife with this illogical stupidity.
When thor smashes his hammer down and the aftershock gets quicksilver, that is dumb, as the aftershocks should be slow to qs who should be able to outrun.
Speed kills. In real life, being faster is an almost insurmountable advantage. A boxer who punches fast and dodges fast is very hard to beat.
Flash =/= Gladiator. Besides, we don't know the context behind Flash's speed. GL was obviously injured and used a constructed cast for his arm, Lex infected by some Cable-ish techno-virus, etc. For all we know, Flash could have been depowered and made less fast as a result. Regardless, Flash has no bearing on this discussion outside of him being the fastest speedster in comics...and even Flash doesn't do anything remotely close to what people actually argue him doing in a forum.
Unfortunately, Thor's swung his hammer at speeds faster than light before and him being able to hit Pietro though shockwaves isn't PIS considering what Thor has done before. I'm not making this shit up, either. Thor has plenty of feats to justify him hanging with superspeed bricks, that's just the reality of it. He has a fair share of lower end ones, but that doesn't mean you can just throw out his other feats just to suit your argument. At best, it leaves room for debate and the fact that he doesn't just have a few seldom feats makes it so if he does lose to someone with superspeed, they're not going to completely obliterate him in due mainly because of speed.
Unless you're Flash or Zoom, whom can hit with galaxy busting force. 😐
"In real life" =/= comic versus debates. They're still comic book characters who shit on science and logic on a daily basis. And that's the problem here. You can't bring these fictional characters from a fictional universe and try to impose reality on them just because it makes sense. It's an exercise in futility.
Thor was swinging his hammer pretty fast when Gladiator bull rushed him.
In the time it took for a speeding Gladiator to hit Thor he had already got off two swings. Had Thor been aiming at Glads, he would've easily decked him. Gladiators speed wont be a deciding factor in a fight against Thor. Thor's shown that he's more than capable of dealing with speedsters.Just cuz no blurry lines are in his movements usually doesnt mean he's slow.