Originally posted by Bentleyfinally recovered from our battlezone i see 😉
I agree with PG -and it might be the first time ever-, Kisame steamrolls the no-feats fallacious character.
anyway, it's not like you have much choice here. feats matter cause on-paper hinata and neji have the same kekkei genkai but there is a an enormous gulf in between every single skill they exhibit. even their intellect and mindset are completely different. this stuff matters.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Doesn't mean he had it when he got there. 😛Gates amp one's base speed, as does KCM IMO. So even if they are different, they both do not raise one's speed to a set level, they simply amp one's speed by a certain level.
What a load of BS. 😛 Thus you agree that Mito < Naruto in speed. vinConsidering A was behind Sasuke when he 'blitzed' him, yah. 😛
Considering he would have no idea where they were specifically without it, he probably did. 😛
Naruto went from 3.5 to faster than A, the fastest shinobi alive. Would obviously be a jump of 1.5 at the very least. And of course, she had more of the Kyuubi. Double 1.5, add it to 2, and it would equal 5. awesome
But he got behind him cause he could not keep up. 😮
Originally posted by psycho gundam
finally recovered from our battlezone i see 😉anyway, it's not like you have much choice here. feats matter cause on-paper hinata and neji have the same kekkei genkai but there is a an enormous gulf in between every single skill they exhibit. even their intellect and mindset are completely different. this stuff matters.
This is actually a damn good argument. Be proud of it.
But, since the abilities of the mode seem purely instinctive, it is not the same. Instinctively with this mode, one can outrun A and use chakra claws. Mito would obviously have instinct and would have access to such power.
Close but no cigar.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Considering he would have no idea where they were specifically without it, he probably did. 😛Naruto went from 3.5 to faster than [b]A
, the fastest shinobi alive. Would obviously be a jump of 1.5 at the very least. And of course, she had more of the Kyuubi. Double 1.5, add it to 2, and it would equal 5. awesomeBut he got behind him cause he could not keep up. 😮
[/B]
Nah, he got there, deactivated/lost it, and leaped in. 😛
Besides, you don't really see any trace of Sage Mode disappearing, so I don't see how you can argue against this. 😛
3.5 was long ago. Base Naruto's speed feats then weren't as impressive as his speed feat to save Sakura.
And I don't see that scene as Naruto being outright faster than full-speed A, I see that scene as Naruto being fast enough to dodge A.
She had more of the Kyuubi...Can you prove that this factor's into KCM's stat boosts?
He got behind him because his neck couldn't keep up. His eyes could keep up though. 😛
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah, he got there, deactivated/lost it, and leaped in. 😛
Besides, you don't really see any trace of Sage Mode disappearing, so I don't see how you can argue against this. 😛3.5 was long ago. Base Naruto's speed feats then weren't as impressive as his speed feat to save Sakura.
And I don't see that scene as Naruto being outright faster than full-speed A, I see that scene as Naruto being fast enough to dodge A.
She had more of the Kyuubi...Can you prove that this factor's into KCM's stat boosts?He got behind him because his neck couldn't keep up. His eyes could keep up though. 😛
See, I have the same idea, just he lost it while leaping. 😮
Simple: Naruto didn't show speed like that outside of Sage Mode before. He was in Sage Mode while trying to get there. Sage Mode lasts a short bit so it would deactivate eventually, why not the perfect moment to?
But, aside from that one instance that could/could not be due to Sage Mode, what other feats are there?
So yeah, faster. He moved faster than A. 😮
Well you can't prove KCM just boosts your current stats so we're at an impasse. 313
They didn't since A escaped burning to death.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
See, I have the same idea, just he lost it while leaping. 😮
Simple: Naruto didn't show speed like that outside of Sage Mode before. He was in Sage Mode while trying to get there. Sage Mode lasts a short bit so it would deactivate eventually, why not the perfect moment to?But, aside from that one instance that could/could not be due to Sage Mode, what other feats are there?
So yeah, faster. He moved faster than A. 😮
Well you can't prove KCM just boosts your current stats so we're at an impasse. 313They didn't since A escaped burning to death.
If he had lost it in the middle of saving Sakura, we'd see the eye markings disappearing. Did we?
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v48/c452/13.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v48/c452/14.html Saving Sakura again weirdly enough.
Nah, he just moved out of the way. Like Deidara moved out of the way when Sasuke was trying to slice him.
Pretty much every other physical amp boosts one's stats, instead of increasing it to a singular set level for everyone who might use said physical amp. Why should KCM be any different? You still have to prove that Mito will be as fast as Naruto in KCM. 131
They kept up. Just didn't keep up for the entire thing due to Sasuke's neck not being fast enough.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If he had lost it in the middle of saving Sakura, we'd see the eye markings disappearing. Did we?http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v48/c452/13.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v48/c452/14.html Saving Sakura again weirdly enough.
Nah, he just moved out of the way. Like Deidara moved out of the way when Sasuke was trying to slice him.Pretty much every other physical amp boosts one's stats, instead of increasing it to a singular set level for everyone who might use said physical amp. Why should KCM be any different? You still have to prove that Mito will be as fast as Naruto in KCM. 131
They kept up. Just didn't keep up for the entire thing due to Sasuke's neck not being fast enough.
Not true. Naruto had his head down. Certainly possible the marks could have been disappearing at the time.
...? He didn't save her. She bounced, several times in fact. Sage Mode Naruto would most likely have caught her. 😛
Because it never shows itself to increase other amps beside speed. And chakra, obviously. And what category would speed fall into? Taijutsu of course! Which works differently, as shown here. I propose that KCM is merely one of the few exceptions Kakashi is talking about. Like Raikage's armor. The more power put into it, the faster he becomes. The Kyuubi having more chakra in Mito's case would indicate that she could become potentially faster. ^^
But they didn't catch A with Amaterasu. Had nothing to do with his neck. 😮
I also think you're incorrect about how Sage Mode works.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c409/14.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c414/12.html
Now, it could be possible that they have the same amount of strength in base mode....but it strikes me as unlikely. However, using Sage Mode, both was able to reach the strength necessary to lift the rock. So it does indeed put them on equal footing. awesome
That and they're shown sparring on relatively equal terms. As they both have Sage Chakra control relatively mastered, it seems like they do fight equally. For a Frog and a Human I guess.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not true. Naruto had his head down. Certainly possible the marks could have been disappearing at the time....? He didn't save her. She bounced, several times in fact. Sage Mode Naruto would most likely have caught her. 😛
Because it never shows itself to increase other amps beside speed. And chakra, obviously. And what category would speed fall into? Taijutsu of course! Which works differently, as shown here. I propose that KCM is merely one of the few exceptions Kakashi is talking about. Like Raikage's armor. The more power put into it, the faster he becomes. The Kyuubi having more chakra in Mito's case would indicate that she could become potentially faster. ^^
But they didn't catch A with Amaterasu. Had nothing to do with his neck. 😮
He had his head down when we saw it from one angle. A mere eye turn and another panel later was when we saw his eye.
She bounced once or twice before he caught her. Of course Sage Mode Naruto would have caught her. KCM would have failed though. vin
It increased his strength and his durability. Speed falls into ninjutsu when it is high speed, the same kind of speed A uses.
Naruto uses just a sliver and enters KCM. I highly doubt he's using huge chunks of it to move around at high speeds, while Mito would be using even bigger chunks simply because she "has all of the Kyuubi's chakra." And once again, the upper limit of KCM's duration is dependent on Naruto's/Mito's chakra level, not the Kyuubi's.
Also, there's a limit to how much chakra they took away from the Kyuubi, which means that they obviously did not take all of it. Ergo, no way to know if the Kyuubi chakra Mito had access to was twice that of Naruto's. vin I also doubt she had the *exact* same form, seeing as Naruto is using pure Yang chakra in KCM, whereas Mito would be using Yin & Yang.
I'm talking about the behind the back 'blitzing'.
Not catching him with Amaterasu is something else entirely, seeing as A was fast enough to dodge the first shot of it.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I also think you're incorrect about how Sage Mode works.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c409/14.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v45/c414/12.html
Now, it could be possible that they have the same amount of strength in base mode....but it strikes me as unlikely. However, using Sage Mode, both was able to reach the strength necessary to lift the rock. So it does indeed put them on equal footing. awesome
That and they're shown sparring on relatively equal terms. As they both have Sage Chakra control relatively mastered, it seems like they do fight equally. For a Frog and a Human I guess.
C'mon,
Sage Mode Naruto completely stopped a (approximately, according to calcs on NF) 1000 ton Rhino charging straight at him, and tossed it into the sky much as one would toss a pebble. Compound this with the fact that Fukasaku had mastered Sage Chakra completely, whereas Naruto was "getting the hang of it", and your point falls on its head.
Nah. Naruto was holding back as he was afraid that Fukasaku would use that awesome stick of his to beat the Sage Chakra and shit out of him. awesome
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He had his head down when we saw it from one angle. A mere eye turn and another panel later was when we saw his eye.She bounced once or twice before he caught her. Of course Sage Mode Naruto would have caught her.
It increased his strength and his durability. Speed falls into ninjutsu when it is high speed, the same kind of speed A uses.
Naruto uses just a sliver and enters KCM. I highly doubt he's using huge chunks of it to move around at high speeds, while Mito would be using even bigger chunks simply because she "has all of the Kyuubi's chakra." And once again, the upper limit of KCM's duration is dependent on Naruto's/Mito's chakra level, not the Kyuubi's.
Also, there's a limit to how much chakra they took away from the Kyuubi, which means that they obviously did not take all of it. Ergo, no way to know if the Kyuubi chakra Mito had access to was twice that of Naruto's. vin I also doubt she had the *exact* same form, seeing as Naruto is using pure Yang chakra in KCM, whereas Mito would be using Yin & Yang.I'm talking about the behind the back 'blitzing'.
Not catching him with Amaterasu is something else entirely, seeing as A was fast enough to dodge the first shot of it.
Indeed. But it doesn't take Sage Mode very long to disappear.
Uh....when did he catch her? It seems like he is about to catch her but it also looks like she'll be done bouncy once she hits the ground.
Uh...how does one gauge the mass of that? The durability one isn't actually true. The swords were stopped by claws. And he actually *is* using bigger chunks at higher speeds. He just pulls it out and uses it so quickly that we don't notice it. It's all instinctive. Duration is dependent on the user. The actual powers, perhaps not. Of course there is a limited amount of chakra. It can't be limitless. However, Mito had access to more. Again, fully powered Kyuubi. Of course her form might have looked different I suppose but considering what Tobi said, it works in the same way.
Indeed. Not like blitzing from the front would help.
Indeed. It's called Sasuke can't keep up. 😛
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sage Mode Naruto completely stopped a (approximately, according to calcs on NF) 1000 ton Rhino charging straight at him, and tossed it into the sky much as one would toss a pebble. Compound this with the fact that Fukasaku had mastered Sage Chakra completely, whereas Naruto was "getting the hang of it", and your point falls on its head.Nah. Naruto was holding back as he was afraid that Fukasaku would use that awesome stick of his to beat the Sage Chakra and shit out of him. awesome
Dun care. Not really. If mastering it and getting the hang of it really meant anything, they would never have given Naruto the exact test based on Fukasaku's earlier feat. Sage Mode gives the users relatively the same status in regards to strength. It's possible there might be *slight* differences based on how strong they were before but that is merely a possibility, not a fact. Then again, this is all just speculation.
Probably. Any who, since it is apparently just us still arguing...
Adios! 😮
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Indeed. But it doesn't take Sage Mode very long to disappear.
Uh....when did he catch her? It seems like he is about to catch her but it also looks like she'll be done bouncy once she hits the ground.Uh...how does one gauge the mass of that? The durability one isn't actually true. The swords were stopped by claws. And he actually *is* using bigger chunks at higher speeds. He just pulls it out and uses it so quickly that we don't notice it. It's all instinctive. Duration is dependent on the user. The actual powers, perhaps not. Of course there is a limited amount of chakra. It can't be limitless. However, Mito had access to more. Again, fully powered Kyuubi. Of course her form might have looked different I suppose but considering what Tobi said, it works in the same way.
Indeed. Not like blitzing from the front would help.
Indeed. It's called Sasuke can't keep up. 😛
Should take longer than an eye-turn. 😛
Fine. He reached her.
The force of the Hachibi's shot itself broke through 9 layers. Naruto pushed through most of the remaining 25. Besides, I remember the 4 Tailed Kyuubi's Menacing Ball being massive enough to impede its movement. What? I don't see any claws when he actually stops them, just his arm. He used the claws to hold the swords.
Yeah, he is probably using bigger chunks of it to move faster, and I did not say otherwise. But is he using huge-ass chunks of it, and would Mito have enough control to use 2x huge-ass chunks of it? I don't think that is the case.
Do we know she had access to more? There's only so much one can pull away from it, and we don't know how much Mito pulled away.
Indeed. Not when Amaterasu was right in front of you, and your opponent would see you coming from a mile away, figuratively speaking.
Close but no cigar. It's called Sasuke's body can't keep up. His eyes keep up just fine. 😛
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Dun care. Not really. If mastering it and getting the hang of it really meant anything, they would never have given Naruto the exact test based on Fukasaku's earlier feat. Sage Mode gives the users relatively the same status in regards to strength. It's possible there might be *slight* differences based on how strong they were before but that is merely a possibility, not a fact. Then again, this is all just speculation.Probably. Any who, since it is apparently just us still arguing...
Adios! 😮
On the contrary, it could easily mean that Naruto would have a higher strength level when amped, simply because he had more strength in his base form.
But basically, do you really think Fukusaku could stop a charging Rhino and toss it or a feat of similar strength to compensate for the size difference? 😐
Meh. Q99 & PG are chickens.
So I declare that Itachi steps in and pwns them both. awesome
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. I don't recall A ever going at fullspeed against Bee.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/11.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/15.html
Notice the difference in A's hair. He was at full power, and the text at the end of the chapter mentions Bee surpassed A.
... In base. Bee didn't fight Kisame in base.
Max power, top speed punch. A at his fastest is not as fast as Naruto at his fastest.
Not by much.
2. Not fullspeed. Nor did he go at Bee with the intent to kill. Merely knock him out with his Lariat.
You have no proof at all to suggest it wasn't at full speed.
3. Does it immediately. Got stuck cause he is not accustomed to moving at such speeds.
You misunderstood my question. Prove the speed is instictive from the mode itself. The link you posted pretty obviously alludes that it emanates from him being Minato's son, making a direct comparison between the two.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v58/c545/1.htmlNaruto senses hostility in that mode, Mito can sense hostility. Since both are Kyuubi hosts and both could sense hostility, Mito certainly had that mode.
........ That's it? This is what gets Mito to S+? Really? 😬
No man. You can argue that the power stems from the Kyuubi, but you can't actually claim that she definitely had that mode at all, let alone that it would give her the same abilities as Naruto.
Not buying it. Kisame wins.
Originally posted by NemeBro
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/11.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v57/c543/15.htmlNotice the difference in A's hair. He was at full power, and the text at the end of the chapter mentions Bee surpassed A.
... In base. Bee didn't fight Kisame in base.
The text said it gave him the strength to beat A. And he is obviously stronger. Faster? Shit. Where is the support for that reasoning?
Originally posted by NemeBro
You have no proof at all to suggest it wasn't at full speed.
Considering fullspeed is something he only pulls out when going at someone with intent to kill, I doubt he was.
But if I must prove it...A is in the middle of the area. A goes into the max power.(To Bee's shock. And if we're basing it off his hairspikeyness, it certainly looks spikeyer there)A clears the distance in less than a second. Now moving that much ground certainly looks faster than his actions here.
Originally posted by NemeBro
You misunderstood my question. Prove the speed is instictive from the mode itself. The link you posted pretty obviously alludes that it emanates from him being Minato's son, making a direct comparison between the two.
Minato was the Yellow Flash because his FTG allowed him to quickly port from place to place using Space time techs. What Naruto did was simply use super speed. He has never shown such speed before. We must conclude that yes, the speed comes from his new mode. Him being Minato's son is irrelevant. He was Minato's kid before. He was never described as a flash before. And it is noted later on that yes, the speed comes from the mode.
Now keep in mind, this was Naruto's first time in this mode. It was all new to him. Sensing evil came naturally, creating chakra claws came naturally. And when Kisame got out, Naruto (Not Bee or Yamato) was the first to react. And he moved at speeds he has never shown before, instinctively. The only reason he refrains from moving at such speeds is probably because he has to worry about hurting himself while doing it.
Originally posted by NemeBro
........ That's it? This is what gets Mito to S+? Really? 😬No man. You can argue that the power stems from the Kyuubi, but you can't actually claim that she definitely had that mode at all, let alone that it would give her the same abilities as Naruto.
Not buying it. Kisame wins.
Si.
Then why is she noted to have an ability only Naruto is known to have and then only within that mode?
Perhaps. Then again, this thread should be entitled "*****ing." Because that was what it was made for.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The text said it gave him the strength to beat A. And he is obviously stronger. Faster? Shit. Where is the support for that reasoning?
Check the flashback. You see A chastising Bee regarding that he has to lower his speed so that Bee can match his Lariat.
He at the very least matched his speed. That is clear.
Considering fullspeed is something he only pulls out when going at someone with intent to kill, I doubt he was.
Conjecture.
But if I must prove it...A is in the middle of the area. A goes into the max power.(To Bee's shock. And if we're basing it off his hairspikeyness, it certainly looks spikeyer there)A clears the distance in less than a second. Now moving that much ground certainly looks faster than his actions here.
The difference in "hair spikiness" is very minor.
And no, Bee surpassed A. He didn't surpass "A holding back."
You have no evidence at all, now you are looking at a still manga image and trying to tell me it looks faster.
No.
Minato was the Yellow Flash because his FTG allowed him to quickly port from place to place using Space time techs. What Naruto did was simply use super speed. He has never shown such speed before. We must conclude that yes, the speed comes from his new mode. Him being Minato's son is irrelevant. He was Minato's kid before. He was never described as a flash before. And it is noted later on that yes, the speed comes from the mode.Now keep in mind, this was Naruto's first time in this mode. It was all new to him. Sensing evil came naturally, creating chakra claws came naturally. And when Kisame got out, Naruto (Not Bee or Yamato) was the first to react. And he moved at speeds he has never shown before, instinctively. The only reason he refrains from moving at such speeds is probably because he has to worry about hurting himself while doing it.
Then why is he constantly compared to Minato, rather than Mito? Of course it comes from his new mode (The one Mito is never shown to have), but you ever consider that the Kyuubi mode could be moulded by Naruto's own chakra? Which is why the comparisons to the Yellow Flash are continually being stated, as well as to Naruto himself.
Si.Then why is she noted to have an ability only Naruto is known to have and then only within that mode?
Perhaps. Then again, this thread should be entitled "*****ing." Because that was what it was made for.
Sure, the ability to sense emotions could come from the Kyuubi. You have nothing at all to suggest that Mito has that exact same mode, or the abilities resulting from it.
This thread is stupid. Discussions regarding Mito are stupid. Kisame eats her chakra and then eats her.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngelwell she really dropped the ball during her lifetime cause only someone with the kyuubi can deal with tobi/madara (whoever the F did the deed back in mito's time)
This is actually a damn good argument. Be proud of it.But, since the abilities of the mode seem purely instinctive, it is not the same. Instinctively with this mode, one can outrun A and use chakra claws. Mito would obviously have instinct and would have access to such power.
Close but no cigar.
tobi recalled mito having the evil scanning thing and said naruto would see through the zetsu, so she did at least have that ability for sure, i guess time will tell if tobi likens naruto's fighting ability to mito's as well though that seems unlikely as hell since not even kushina has any legendary status regarding any kyuubi abilities prior to getting knocked up.
-----------------------
naruto never outran A, all he did was dodge his punch once after several failed attempts. if raikage wanted to pursue him it looks like his travel speed is enough to overcome naruto's.
NemeBrosThen why is he constantly compared to Minato, rather than Mito? Of course it comes from his new mode (The one Mito is never shown to have),
Why is he compared to Minato? Because almost all of them were during Minato's time and not Mito's, decades prior (Mito would be fairly old when A and Tsunade were kids, and Bee wasn't born by the time she died).
Except for Tobi, who does compare him to Mito, and Onoki, who's made no comparisons.
I still have a problem with this "She has a power only coming from this mode, and the prerequisites of this mode, but not this mode," stance that your position relies on.
Demonic PhoenixRight, there is a massive speed boost, but to what extent we do not know. Naruto is fast in his base mode. Unless you know Mito's base speed, you cannot tell how fast she would be. For all we know, she could be faster, but that cannot be proven. At best, we can say she is very fast, and I'd agree, but KCM Naruto fast? Nah.
He's only a 3.5 in base mode.
Even if she's only a 3, that'd put her KCM speed in the low 5 range (to Naruto's high-5).
BentleyI agree with PG -and it might be the first time ever-, Kisame steamrolls the no-feats fallacious character.
But what we do know of her gives her one of those most powerful combat modes we know...
I can't help but notice that the anti-Mito people are just saying "Mito loses!" without providing arguments. No-one's providing any arguments as to why she wouldn't have Kyuubi Chakra Mode, and only Demonic Phoenix is actually arguing how KCM would do vs Kisame in a fight.
Which is why I feel it quite safe to ignore them in the ranking thread.
It's not a popularity rating, after all, it's based on how people view the data, and people telling me I should change this or that without an argument that addresses the data or ignores it because they don't like the data is simply irrelevant.
I do so wonder why Tobi didn't mention Mito having that mode, rather than saying "Oh he can sense emotions like her".
Yeah not buying it. It's an assumption without nearly enough evidence to be used in a vs. thread.
And frankly, I'm not convinced even if she has the mode she could beat Kisame.
Kisame makes the area water. All of the sudden he is now faster than she is.
Kisame wins.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
well she really dropped the ball during her lifetime cause only someone with the kyuubi can deal with tobi/madara (whoever the F did the deed back in mito's time)
To be fair, they were believed dead at the time.
Otherwise I'm sure Mito and Tobirama or maybe prime Sarutobi would've gone out to crush heads.
tobi recalled mito having the evil scanning thing and said naruto would see through the zetsu, so she did at least have that ability for sure, i guess time will tell if tobi likens naruto's fighting ability to mito's as well though that seems unlikely as hell since not even kushina has any legendary status regarding any kyuubi abilities prior to getting knocked up.
A remembered her extraordinary chakra.
And in her case, we have a shown really impressive feat with the Kyuubi and her barrier jutsu.