Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Ok, well thanks for your opinion but to me that argument is dead. And on the other argument, Odin is definitely not = or > Galactus.
Odin, unamped off anything, was giving Galactus such a hard time TP battle wise that he was so fully engaged he couldn't defend himself from a wounded Thor's bull rush attack (that rocked him and caused him to cry out in pain). That's a good enough showing for Odin all things considered.
Galactus should be more powerful than a Skyfather and was shown to be. Arishem was shown to be more powerful than three skyfathers (they couldn't even faze him with their combined attack). This event was confirmed in Sacred Invasion.
All this was 616 versions.
When 616 Galactus beats any 616 Celestial, then we'll talk.
I think it's fair to say that a well fed Galactus has the edge in power over an unamped Odin.
I certainly don't think the gap is as large as it was between Odin and the Celestials back in their original encounter though. Pretty clear Galactus would have gotten his ass handed to him hard at the time, any cosmic short of Eternity most likely would have.
I wouldn't be surprised if Galactus was shown as a peer to a 616 Celestial, despite historical evidence, but the Odin Destroyer battle was so major that I don't think we'll ever see Odin as a peer to 616 Celestials. Funny how that works.
No denying that this was a great showing for Galactus. Everyone had their part to play, most writers don't this. It was still really half assed by Hickman though.
Originally posted by zopzop
Odin, unamped off anything, was giving Galactus such a hard time TP battle wise that he was so fully engaged he couldn't defend himself from a wounded Thor's bull rush attack (that rocked him and caused him to cry out in pain). That's a good enough showing for Odin all things considered.Galactus should be more powerful than a Skyfather and was shown to be. Arishem was shown to be more powerful than three skyfathers (they couldn't even faze him with their combined attack). This event was confirmed in Sacred Invasion.
All this was 616 versions.
When 616 Galactus beats any 616 Celestial, then we'll talk.
No need to, I already know that a Celestial being >>>>>Galactus is dead.
Originally posted by zopzop
Were they said to be more powerful or even as powerful as their 616 counterparts? NO.The fact remains they were ALTERNATE REALITY Celestials. Let him do that to 616 versions then we'll talk.
Originally posted by zopzop
Who knows how powerful they were in relation to their 616 versions. They were ALTERNATE REALITY Celestials. When Galactus does this vs their 616 counterparts then Tar-Antado will have had a point (regarding the Skyfather/Celestial/Galactus power level argument).
With this logic, you can never again point to feats as being the deciding factor when you debate. You must ALWAYS use implied power.
Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
With this logic, you can never again point to feats as being the deciding factor when you debate. You must ALWAYS use implied power.
Even implied power is BS. Feats are nice (especially for Respect Threads) but they are not the end all be all. It's the actual fights that count, specifically 616 versions. That way we know for sure where the writers see the respective combatants power wise.
Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
franklin's the guy who goes running to Big G when the going gets tough. Young, adult, and alternate versions!
Let's not forget that Galactus was dead or comatose on the 2 occasions you're referring to and Franklin brought him back. Like someone in another thread stated, the relationship between the two characters is pretty symbiotic; they helped each other out.
As far as Galactus being Franklin's herald, I don't see it being a problem unless it gets out of hand. Both are very powerful in their own right. And having them continuously work together (regardless of who helps who) would only serve to diminish their individual identities. It isn't necessary. My thoughts.
Originally posted by zopzop
Even implied power is BS. Feats are nice (especially for Respect Threads) but they are not the end all be all. It's the actual fights that count, specifically 616 versions. That way we know for sure where the writers see the respective combatants power wise.
This is exactly why I don't believe a Celestial is many times more powerful than Galactus as some claim. They have never had a contest of power in any comic. The Hickman story is the closest thing to it and therefore the basis of my view. That and Brevoort's posts on the matter. Besides, nothing indicates in Hickman's story saying the alternate universe Celestials are weaker, not even a token comment or narrative. As such, the burden is to prove they are not as powerful as 616. For all we know they may even be more powerful.
Originally posted by Tar-Antado
This is exactly why I don't believe a Celestial is many times more powerful than Galactus as some claim. They have never had a contest of power in any comic. The Hickman story is the closest thing to it and therefore the basis of my view. That and Brevoort's posts on the matter. Besides, nothing indicates in Hickman's story saying the alternate universe Celestials are weaker, not even a token comment or narrative. As such, the burden is to prove they are not as powerful as 616. For all we know they may even be more powerful.
Agreed. If the Mad Celestials were meant to be less powerful than their 616 counterparts, a good narrator would be sure to point that out or make it clear for audiences/readers; and Hickman had plenty of time to do so. In light of the absence of such a claim, there's no reason to assume the Mad Celestials are inferior in any way, shape or form.
Originally posted by Doon
Agreed. If the Mad Celestials were meant to be less powerful than their 616 counterparts, a good narrator would be sure to point that out or make it clear for audiences/readers; and Hickman had plenty of time to do so. In light of the absence of such a claim, there's no reason to assume the Mad Celestials are inferior in any way, shape or form.
Besides wasn't this the first timeline in many that Frankling/Galactus actually succeeded in fighting off the mad Celestials? Those guys were freaking monsters.
BTW, the FF #16 preview page says it WAS a Franklin/Big G combo so it disproves claims it was all Franklin's power in play during that final battle.
Originally posted by zopzop
Even implied power is BS. Feats are nice (especially for Respect Threads) but they are not the end all be all. It's the actual fights that count, specifically 616 versions. That way we know for sure where the writers see the respective combatants power wise.
Ironically you say "the actual fights that count" when the most impressive feat that you can say for the 616 Celestials is either the 2000 foot tall Asgardian Destroyer or your 3 skyfather blast.
Both of which totally pale in comparison to actually being superior to 616 Adult Franklin Richards
in fact more evidence suggests that on the whole (excluding Scathan), the 616 celesitals haven't shown anything to depict that they are on the same power level as the Mad Celestials. You'll disagree with me, so tell me who have the 616 Celestials faced that is on the level of a mature Franklin Richards. and to make it more interesting, let's say you pinpoint a scenario where it's 3 Celestials or fewer and actually winning against someone of 616 Franklin's level.
Originally posted by Doon
Let's not forget that Galactus was dead or comatose on the 2 occasions you're referring to and Franklin brought him back. Like someone in another thread stated, the relationship between the two characters is pretty symbiotic; they helped each other out.
That doesn't change the fact that Franklin required Galactus' help on both occasions, the first being impressive since Franklin actually burned himself out doing it. The implication being that for all Franklin's power, having Galactus by his side is so significant that he would fail otherwise.
Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
Ironically you say "the actual fights that count" when the most impressive feat that you can say for the 616 Celestials is either the 2000 foot tall Asgardian Destroyer or your 3 skyfather blast.Both of which totally pale in comparison to actually being superior to 616 Adult Franklin Richards
in fact more evidence suggests that on the whole (excluding Scathan), the 616 celesitals haven't shown anything to depict that they are on the same power level as the Mad Celestials. You'll disagree with me, so tell me who have the 616 Celestials faced that is on the level of a mature Franklin Richards. and to make it more interesting, let's say you pinpoint a scenario where it's 3 Celestials or fewer and actually winning against someone of 616 Franklin's level.
Aside from these Rogue Alternate Reality Celestials, who has this Adult Franklin fought? How well did he do against them?
Regarding the 616 Celestials and their fights aside from the Destroyer and the Skyfathers, there was the Kubik/Kosmos incident in the Fantastic Four Annuals in the 90s. Two full Cube Beings were in fear of their lives because an unnamed Celestial was about to pass judgement on them. Kubik told Kosmos that the Celestials were many levels of magnitude above them in power.
Originally posted by zopzop
Who knows how powerful they were in relation to their 616 versions. They were ALTERNATE REALITY Celestials. When Galactus does this vs their 616 counterparts then Tar-Antado will have had a point (regarding the Skyfather/Celestial/Galactus power level argument).
So alternate reality version automatically means weaker version iyo?
Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Besides wasn't this the first timeline in many that Frankling/Galactus actually succeeded in fighting off the mad Celestials? Those guys were freaking monsters.BTW, the FF #16 preview page says it WAS a Franklin/Big G combo so it disproves claims it was all Franklin's power in play during that final battle.
I don't think anyone ever said that it was all Franklin's power. They obviously worked together to defeat the Mad Celestials.