Galactus vs The Celestials...

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
That doesn't change the fact that Franklin required Galactus' help on both occasions, the first being impressive since Franklin actually burned himself out doing it. The implication being that for all Franklin's power, having Galactus by his side is so significant that he would fail otherwise.

Well, young Franklin isn't the equal of his adult counterpart specifically because he lacks experience (not power). That said, Adult Franklin might not have needed the assistance of Galactus to defeat Abraxas during that particular storyline. He's already proven that he can best Celestials individually (although not more than two at once). Moreover, it's hard to compare events written by two different writers I think. Case in point. Adult Franklin expended a great deal of power acting as post anchor for the new future he created prior to greeting the Celestials. He expended even more power in the actual battle with them. Then he used Young Franklin's powers to resurrect Galactus, who helped to finish off the Space Gods. So considering how much power was expended by both AF and YF, it's interesting that neither of the two is entirely burned out. That's what I mean about "different writers".

I forget who was it that coined the frase that young Franklin was as powerful as a Celestial?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I forget who was it that coined the frase that young Franklin was as powerful as a Celestial?

Ashema the Listener (another Celestial) iirc.

Originally posted by Doon
That said, Adult Franklin might not have needed the assistance of Galactus to defeat Abraxas during that particular storyline..

I highly doubt that Franklin would have been capable of summoning the UN from Abraxas the way Galactus did it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I highly doubt that Franklin would have been capable of summoning the UN from Abraxas the way Galactus did it.

So you think Abraxas is > than one individual Celestial (or even two)?

Originally posted by Doon
So you think Abraxas is > than one individual Celestial (or even two)?

I don't really see how that relates to my statement that I doubt Franklin would have summoned the UN from Abraxas like Galactus did. Do Franklin have some connection with the UN I'm unaware of?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Ashema the Listener (another Celestial) iirc.

Did Reed say it as well? You might be right though.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Did Reed say it as well? You might be right though.

Edit: And Roma the Omniversal guardian too.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I don't really see how that relates to my statement that I doubt Franklin would have summoned the UN from Abraxas like Galactus did. Do Franklin have some connection with the UN I'm unaware of?

It's been a while since I read the Abraxas storyline, but in my opinion, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that Abraxas could have been defeated through another means of attack. That's just speculation on my part though.

Also, Franklin seems to be full of surprises. If he's capable of making Galactus his herald (even for a day, month or year), who knows what else he has a "connection" to?

Originally posted by Utrigita
I think it was just Ashema, saying it in the Heroes Reborn.

Edit: And Roma the Omniversal guardian too.

In F4 vol 2 #8, some evil bald guy said it too. Not sure who he is/was though.

Originally posted by Doon
It's been a while since I read the Abraxas storyline, but in my opinion, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that Abraxas could have been defeated through another means of attack. That's just speculation on my part though.

Also, Franklin seems to be full of surprises. If he's capable of making Galactus his herald (even for a day, month or year), who knows what else he has a "connection" to?

While it's indeed possible that Abraxas could have been defeated through other means, it wouldn't have solved the problem, for that the UN was needed.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. While Franklin was capable of making a knockoutted (or dead) Galactus his herald, I see no reason at all to assume that Franklin would or could suddenly develop a link to the UN like Galactus have, that would be absurd, hence my earlier comment that Franklin couldn't have summoned the UN from Abraxas like Galactus did it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
While it's indeed possible that Abraxas could have been defeated through other means, it wouldn't have solved the problem, for that the UN was needed.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves. While Franklin was capable of making a knockoutted (or dead) Galactus his herald, I see no reason at all to assume that Franklin would or could suddenly develop a link to the UN like Galactus have, that would be absurd, hence my earlier comment that Franklin couldn't have summoned the UN from Abraxas like Galactus did it.

Yeah, I hear ya. Not really assuming though, just suggesting that it seems like anything can happen in comics nowadays. For instance, although Franklin has always been a powerful character since his inception (easily defeating opponents like Blastaar and Mephisto), I never would have imagined that he would be capable of creating his own universes or even challenging the might of the Celestials, and yet he's done just that. And I'm sure some Galactus supporters already consider the whole "herald" thing to be absurd. Regardless of how certain events in comics are perceived by fans, they continue to happen regardless of the fact. Case in point: One More Day 🙂

Originally posted by Doon
I don't think anyone ever said that it was all Franklin's power. They obviously worked together to defeat the Mad Celestials.

My apologies, I was thinking of extreme Galactus haters from another board.

Originally posted by zopzop
Aside from these Rogue Alternate Reality Celestials, who has this Adult Franklin fought? How well did he do against them?

You don't get to sidestep my initial challenge by replying with one of your own. And Franklin's feats are pretty much self-explanatory. Creating universes at whim, manipulating reality. A kid isn't exactly going to be blowing Odin's eye patch off his face on a daily basis. He dispatched Mephisto. You're trying to separate kid Franklin from Adult Franklin.

Originally posted by zopzop

Regarding the 616 Celestials and their fights aside from the Destroyer and the Skyfathers, there was the Kubik/Kosmos incident in the Fantastic Four Annuals in the 90s. Two full Cube Beings were in fear of their lives because an unnamed Celestial was about to pass judgement on them. Kubik told Kosmos that the Celestials were many levels of magnitude above them in power.

^Can you stop trolling?

Originally posted by zopzop
Even implied power is BS.

Originally posted by Doon
Well, young Franklin isn't the equal of his adult counterpart specifically because he lacks experience (not power). That said, Adult Franklin might not have needed the assistance of Galactus to defeat Abraxas during that particular storyline. He's already proven that he can best Celestials individually (although not more than two at once). Moreover, it's hard to compare events written by two different writers I think. Case in point. Adult Franklin expended a great deal of power acting as post anchor for the new future he created prior to greeting the Celestials. He expended even more power in the actual battle with them. Then he used Young Franklin's powers to resurrect Galactus, who helped to finish off the Space Gods. So considering how much power was expended by both AF and YF, it's interesting that neither of the two is entirely burned out. That's what I mean about "different writers".

Even with the aid of Valeria, young Franklin permanently burned out his powers resurrecting Galactus. Hickman's retconned that by stating it was sub-conscious mental blocks.

Also, it's incredibly circumstantial speculation to compare x character under 2 different writers, as you've done and as you've said.

That's why I stated that it is canon that under 2 different writers, Franklin Richards requires Galactus in order to succeed. Wasn't trying to compare as much as make a statement of facts...

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
You don't get to sidestep my initial challenge by replying with one of your own. And Franklin's feats are pretty much self-explanatory. Creating universes at whim, manipulating reality. A kid isn't exactly going to be blowing Odin's eye patch off his face on a daily basis. He dispatched Mephisto. You're trying to separate kid Franklin from Adult Franklin.

But they ARE separate beings. Kid Franklin's feats are his own. Adult Franklin is from the "future" and as we all know the future is subject to change. He's basically one of the many possible future versions of Franklin.

So to repeat, who has Adult Franklin (himself a possible version of 616 Franklin) fought besides the alt reality Celestials?

^Can you stop trolling?

You ask for a reply then tell me to stop trolling? Are you off your meds?

Originally posted by zopzop

But they ARE separate beings. Kid Franklin's feats are his own. Adult Franklin is from the "future" and as we all know the future is subject to change. He's basically one of the many possible future versions of Franklin.

So to repeat, who has Adult Franklin (himself a possible version of 616 Franklin) fought besides the alt reality Celestials?

You ask for a reply then tell me to stop trolling? Are you off your meds?

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
Even with the aid of Valeria, young Franklin permanently burned out his powers resurrecting Galactus. Hickman's retconned that by stating it was sub-conscious mental blocks.

Also, it's incredibly circumstantial speculation to compare x character under 2 different writers, as you've done and as you've said.

That's why I stated that it is canon that under 2 different writers, Franklin Richards requires Galactus in order to succeed. Wasn't trying to compare as much as make a statement of facts...

Fair enough. However, it's a bit of a generalized statement to say that FR requires Galactus to succeed or that he runs to him when "the going gets tough". Instead, one could say that Franklin has required the assistance of Galactus on two occasions under two different writers. Obviously, throughout the character's history, Franklin has overcome other challenging opponents (e.g., Mephisto, Blastaar) without the aid of the Big G.

Looking back in the thread, though, I realize that you were responding to a rather childish comment about The Big G from another forum member.

Originally posted by zopzop

But they ARE separate beings. Kid Franklin's feats are his own. Adult Franklin is from the "future" and as we all know the future is subject to change. He's basically one of the many possible future versions of Franklin.

So to repeat, who has Adult Franklin (himself a possible version of 616 Franklin) fought besides the alt reality Celestials?[/b]

He IS the 616 Adult Franklin. Until retconned by a future writer or otherwise. You can't just blatantly state he ISN'T just to support your unsubstantiated position without concrete proof that he isn't 616 Franklin. Because we've seen alternate reality adult franklins and NONE of them have been explicitly tied to the 616 canon explicitly as hickman has tied this one.

You ask for a reply then tell me to stop trolling? Are you off your meds?

Do you even read what you post? I mean even owning you has gotten irritating.

Don't stamp your feet and cry when I call you out for using IMPLIED FEATS and expose you further by posting a statement of yours not 3 posts prior.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Originally posted by zopzop
Even implied power is BS.

Originally posted by zopzop

Regarding the 616 Celestials and their fights aside from the Destroyer and the Skyfathers, there was the Kubik/Kosmos incident in the Fantastic Four Annuals in the 90s. Two full Cube Beings were in fear of their lives because an unnamed Celestial was about to pass judgement on them. Kubik told Kosmos that the Celestials were many levels of magnitude above them in power.

GTFO with this BS. Either that or make up your mind, cause you've been reduced to arguing with yourself

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
He IS the 616 Adult Franklin. Until retconned by a future writer or otherwise. You can't just blatantly state he ISN'T just to support your unsubstantiated position without concrete proof that he isn't 616 Franklin. Because we've seen alternate reality adult franklins and NONE of them have been explicitly tied to the 616 canon explicitly as hickman has tied this one.

Do you even read what you post? I mean even owning you has gotten irritating.

Don't stamp your feet and cry when I call you out for using IMPLIED FEATS and expose you further by posting a statement of yours not 3 posts prior.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

GTFO with this BS. Either that or make up your mind, cause you've been reduced to arguing with yourself

Genius it's not IMPLIED power if the character is telling you "we stand no chance against this being" or "he's transfinite levels of power above us". There was no "if" or "mabye" or "perhaps", that was the writer speaking through the character of Kubik. Nothing was implied, it was stated straight up, Celestials are more powerful than Cube Beings.

Implied power would be with beings like Order/Chaos/Hate/Love etc.. that have done nothing with themselves at all and yet people still claim they are powerful because of their place in the cosmic hierarchy. In the case of the Celestials/Cube Beings the writer made it clear as day which was more powerful. They didn't even attempt to fight the Celestial or defend themselves because they'd know they'd lose.

And ANY future version of a character is by definition only ONE of the many possible versions. If you can't understand this, I feel sorry for you. SO again, aside from these Rogue Alternate Reality Celestials, who has Adult Franklin fought against?

EDIT :
Just for you, the definition of implied :
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/implied

implied
[im-plahyd]   Origin
im·plied
   [im-plahyd] Show IPA
adjective
involved, indicated, or suggested without being directly or explicitly stated; tacitly understood: an implied rebuke; an implied compliment.

It was DIRECTLY stated by Kubik not once but twice (just in that issue alone, he also said this in a previous issue) that Celestials > Cube Beings.