Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You can't go upsetting the Sidious fans of SWVF. Clearly, he wins because he is a G-canon character who becomes very powerful well after his RotS appearance. Nevermind that Revan can absorb and redirect Sith lightning well beyond what Yoda can do.
Are you really comparing Nyriss's power in the force to Yoda or Palpatine?
Really?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Are you really comparing Nyriss's power in the force to Yoda or Palpatine?Really?
lol
No, I'm pointing out that this particular feat on behalf of Revan is incredibly more profound than even Yoda's multiple uses of the same power of redirection. Whether or not Nyriss is approaching Yoda and Sidious' level of power at any reference point is irrelevant; what is relevant is that a core part of Sidious' attack is not only easily blockable, but able to be used as a weapon against him.
It'd help to not confuse RotS Sidious with DE Sidious, who is according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook and common sense, much stronger. Try arguing this in context of the movie feats, not the sweeping DE generalizations that normally make up your arguments.
So before you go off, let's clarify my stance here:
It is entirely likely that Force Lightning, should it be used, will be entirely useless against Revan because:
1. He's a former Sith Lord with plenty of knowledge of how to use it himself and block it.
2. He's demonstrated that he can redirect a charged up version from Nyriss, which was so powerful that it reduced the Sith lady to ash even as she was attempting to defend against it.
3. Revan is an epic duelist, and while substantiating him conclusively higher than Sidious is impossible (they did not fight the exact same people), we can reasonably conclude that he is a master duelist known to have battle precognition and therefore the battle could at worst go either way.
Let's conclude:
1. Force power contest is negligible. If Revan busts out Dark Side abilities, there's every reason to believe he could win through those alone. His showings at this point are well above movie-RotS Sidious'. (Not DE Sidious, I'll grant you that).
2. Force Lightning will not yield a victory for Sidious. If anything, it could presumably end up in his death or mortally wound him.
3. The saber game is at worst anyone's game, at best most likely in Revan's favor. He has a wealth more war-time experience and has killed many powerful Jedi and Sith with his blade.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
lolNo, I'm pointing out that this particular feat on behalf of Revan is incredibly more profound than even Yoda's multiple uses of the same power of redirection. Whether or not Nyriss is approaching Yoda and Sidious' level of power at any reference point is irrelevant; what is relevant is that a core part of Sidious' attack is not only easily blockable, but able to be used as a weapon against him.
Okay.
So, the crux of your argument is Revan did this to a vastly, vastly weaker opponent. It's not like Yoda took on Nyriss and failed in this. We know for a stated fact that Yoda is stronger than Revan, and quite possibly by a considerable margin.
you define Palpatine's attack as 'easily' blockable when this is described as an insanely difficult and rather incredible feat. Yoda did not 'easily' handle it, either. You can see them visibly struggling.
The argument stands thus: While Revan's feat did more damage to Nyriss (obliteration) than Yoda did to Palpatine or what Yoda received? True. But you have to add that Nyriss is so far below the leagues of the real titans of the Force that she scarce deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence
It'd help to not confuse RotS Sidious with DE Sidious, who is according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook and common sense, much stronger.
And your point is? Palpatine's power, even from a young age, is titanic. If you genuinely want to make the argument that Nyriss is stronger than more or less any Dark Lord we've seen in action, let alone someone like Dooku or Palpatine, that onus is on you.
Try arguing this in context of the movie feats, not the sweeping DE generalizations that normally make up your arguments.So before you go off, let's clarify my stance here:
It is entirely likely that Force Lightning, should it be used, will be entirely useless against Revan because:
1. He's a former Sith Lord with plenty of knowledge of how to use it himself and block it.
Yes, we know he can probably attempt to block it, and knows how
2. He's demonstrated that he can redirect a charged up version from Nyriss, which was so powerful that it reduced the Sith lady to ash even as she was attempting to defend against it.
Revan absorbed the energy and unleashed his own barrage to be exact. Now, as I recall, we have seen Yoda absorb the energy of a force user considerably stronger than Nyriss (Dooku).
He doesn't unleashed force lightning back at his opponents as he's...well...Yoda.
And once again, we have seen Yoda and Palpatine struggle in at least a state of equilibrium, with the eventual advantage to Yoda.
The notion that Revan's feat means he can handle the blasts of someone vastly [b]stronger than Nyriss is a baseless one. Lord Farfalla was experienced in fighting Sith and has a barrier to block force lightning. Bane's lightning shredded through his force defenses like nothing.
Luke Skywalker was capable of deflecting Force Lightning with his hands from a Nightsister noted as experienced and talented with force lightning. He did, as I recall, considerably poorer when facing blasts from Palpatine at future dates. I can't quite recall if Joruus C'Baoth used force lightning on him exactly, but I keep recalling that happening.
And furthermore, Revan has been seen to be defeated by lightning from a Sith Lord who could quite well be weaker than Palpatine.
3. Revan is an epic duelist, and while substantiating him conclusively higher than Sidious is impossible (they did not fight the exact same people), we can reasonably conclude that he is a master duelist known to have battle precognition and therefore the battle could at worst go either way.
Yes, Revan is a master duelist. Thing is, so is Palpatine. and Palpatine has been seen to have made fools of other master duelists (including three swordsmen considered some of the finest in the Jedi Order's history). And Darth Maul as well in Maul's backstory.
I don't think anybody is arguing that Revan would be steamrolled in combat, though. But he'd lose.
Let's conclude:1. Force power contest is negligible. If Revan busts out Dark Side abilities, there's every reason to believe he could win through those alone. His showings at this point are well above movie-RotS Sidious'. (Not DE Sidious, I'll grant you that).
2. Force Lightning will not yield a victory for Sidious. If anything, it could presumably end up in his death or mortally wound him.
Silliness. Revan is shown to be, on his own, helpless against the Emperor's force lightning. If Revan tries to reflect Palpatine's lightning, absolutely nothing prevents Palpatine from blocking it or reflecting or absorbing it himself (What, Dooku can do this, but Palp can't?). Not only that, but Palpatine's hardly limited to Force Lightning (even if it is his favorite).
Revan's showings are, by and large, limited to defeating people far weaker than Palpatine. He is shown to go down from a blast of the Emperor's lightning, for a start.
3. The saber game is at worst anyone's game, at best most likely in Revan's favor. He has a wealth more war-time experience and has killed many powerful Jedi and Sith with his blade. [/B]
Name 'em. Malak and Bandon are the obvious ones. He's defeated Mandalore and Yusanis. However, Palpatine defeated Saesee, Agen and Kit, as well as Maul. He's also held his own with Yoda and was good enough to challenge him and Mace Windu.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Okay.
So, the crux of your argument is Revan did this to a vastly, vastly weaker opponent.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's not like Yoda took on Nyriss and failed in this. We know for a stated fact that Yoda is stronger than Revan, and quite possibly by a considerable margin.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
you define Palpatine's attack as 'easily' blockable when this is described as an insanely difficult and rather incredible feat. Yoda did not 'easily' handle it, either. You can see them visibly struggling.
Being powerful does not guarantees that the character would be epic in every aspect of the Force.
Here is an analogy: Satele Shan blocked a Lightsaber strike with bare hands. Master Yoda never performed this feat.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The argument stands thus: While Revan's feat did more damage to Nyriss (obliteration) than Yoda did to Palpatine or what Yoda received? True. But you have to add that Nyriss is so far below the leagues of the real titans of the Force that she scarce deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And your point is? Palpatine's power, even from a young age, is titanic. If you genuinely want to make the argument that Nyriss is stronger than more or less any Dark Lord we've seen in action, let alone someone like Dooku or Palpatine, that onus is on you.
Here is a glimpse of Lord Scourge's dueling prowess:
SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.
Source: SWTOR Revan novel
His preferred combat styles were Juyo, Ataru, and Soresu.
And Nyriss stated this about Lord Scourge:
“I have studied your records from the Academy and observed your battle with the mercenaries in my courtyard,” she said at last. “You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction.”
Source: SWTOR Revan novel
And yet this guy was finding it hard to make an offensive move against Nyriss when she dueling him:
Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.
Source: SWTOR Revan novel
Lord Nyriss was no pushover when it came to affairs of Sith:
Nyriss had held on to her position for the past twenty years; to do so required as much cunning and intelligence as raw power.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes, we know he can probably attempt to block it, and knows how
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan absorbed the energy and unleashed his own barrage to be exact. Now, as I recall, we have seen Yoda absorb the energy of a force user considerably stronger than Nyriss (Dooku).
He doesn't unleashed force lightning back at his opponents as he's...well...Yoda.[/QUPTE]
How have you determined that Force Lightning abilities of Count Dooku are even remotely close to that of Nyriss?His Force Lightning did not kill Anakin who was very young during Battle of Geonosis. His Force Lightning did not kill Oppress who had yet to properly tap in to his potential and Oppress sustained several Force Lightning barrages from Count Dooku.
The best I have seen from Dooku was incapacitating Sora Bulq with his Force Lightning, who isn't that big of a deal.
Nyriss' signature Force Lightning was powerful enough to incinerate powerful Jedi and Sith with relative ease. It extended in to 12 lethal bolts. And when Revan directed that power back at her; she herself could not tolerate it and got destroyed.
Force Lightning has never been a strong aspect of Count Dooku. He has much more impressive showings with his telekinetic abilities.
[QUOTE=13620151]Originally posted by Lightsnake
And once again, we have seen Yoda and Palpatine struggle in at least a state of equilibrium, with the eventual advantage to Yoda.
The notion that Revan's feat means he can handle the blasts of someone vastly stronger than Nyriss is a baseless one. Lord Farfalla was experienced in fighting Sith and has a barrier to block force lightning. Bane's lightning shredded through his force defenses like nothing.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke Skywalker was capable of deflecting Force Lightning with his hands from a Nightsister noted as experienced and talented with force lightning. He did, as I recall, considerably poorer when facing blasts from Palpatine at future dates. I can't quite recall if Joruus C'Baoth used force lightning on him exactly, but I keep recalling that happening.
Galen Marek also effortlessely blocked Sidiou's Force Lightning with bare hands. Master Yoda is not unqiue in this regard.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And furthermore, Revan has been seen to be defeated by lightning from a Sith Lord who could quite well be weaker than Palpatine.
She still wasn’t sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan’s doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be.
Source: SWTOR Revan novel
You what this means?
It can be easily deduced that Lord Vitiate's Force Lightning abilities are extremely overwhelming. The fact that he could kill one of the most powerful Jedi in the history of Star Wars with just his Force Lightning abilities, lends credence to this claim.
However, before Lord Vitiate went all out on Revan; the Jedi easily countered his earlier barrage:
He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy.
Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.
The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor.
For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him.
Source: SWTOR Revan novel
It wasn't that Revan was completely helpless.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You know what this means?Yes, Revan is a master duelist. Thing is, so is Palpatine. and Palpatine has been seen to have made fools of other master duelists (including three swordsmen considered some of the finest in the Jedi Order's history). And Darth Maul as well in Maul's backstory.
I don't think anybody is arguing that Revan would be steamrolled in combat, though. But he'd lose.
Here is a another ability of Revan; he could directly heal his wounds with the Force.
And Revan had no issues with handling heavy objects with the Force.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Silliness. Revan is shown to be, on his own, helpless against the Emperor's force lightning. If Revan tries to reflect Palpatine's lightning, absolutely nothing prevents Palpatine from blocking it or reflecting or absorbing it himself (What, Dooku can do this, but Palp can't?). Not only that, but Palpatine's hardly limited to Force Lightning (even if it is his favorite).
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan's showings are, by and large, limited to defeating people far weaker than Palpatine. He is shown to go down from a blast of the Emperor's lightning, for a start.Name 'em. Malak and Bandon are the obvious ones. He's defeated Mandalore and Yusanis. However, Palpatine defeated Saesee, Agen and Kit, as well as Maul. He's also held his own with Yoda and was good enough to challenge him and Mace Windu.
Lord Nyriss who proved to be an overwhelming opponent for Jedi Exile. And Jedi Exile has history with powerful Sith Lords. She was instrumental in stopping the Sith Triumviate, which by all means, was one of the most dangerous gang of Sith Lords ever assembled.
None of these were far weaker then even OT incarnation of Sidious.
No need to underestimate, Revan's accomplishments.
And Revan' former adversaries used dangerous powers like Force Drain in combat. Revan even had an answer to these abilities.
One of my responses got overshadowed due to a typing error. So here is repeat:
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan absorbed the energy and unleashed his own barrage to be exact. Now, as I recall, we have seen Yoda absorb the energy of a force user considerably stronger than Nyriss (Dooku).
He doesn't unleashed force lightning back at his opponents as he's...well...Yoda.
His Force Lightning did not kill Anakin who was very young during Battle of Geonosis. His Force Lightning did not kill Oppress who had yet to properly tap in to his potential and Oppress sustained several Force Lightning barrages from Count Dooku.
The best I have seen from Dooku was incapacitating Sora Bulq with his Force Lightning, who isn't that big of a deal.
Nyriss' signature Force Lightning was powerful enough to incinerate powerful Jedi and Sith with relative ease. It extended in to 12 lethal bolts. And when Revan directed that power back at her; she herself could not tolerate it and got destroyed.
Force Lightning has never been a strong aspect of Count Dooku. He has much more impressive showings with his telekinetic abilities.
SWL
Galen Marek also effortlessely blocked Sidiou's Force Lightning with bare hands. Master Yoda is not unqiue in this regard.
The Force Unleashed
Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.
This is not effortless. You would do well to become more acquainted with the relevant source material or at least pretend to try to be a little less dishonest.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How have you determined that Force Lightning abilities of Count Dooku are even remotely close to that of Nyriss?His Force Lightning did not kill Anakin who was very young during Battle of Geonosis. His Force Lightning did not kill Oppress who had yet to properly tap in to his potential and Oppress sustained several Force Lightning barrages from Count Dooku.
The best I have seen from Dooku was incapacitating Sora Bulq with his Force Lightning, who isn't that big of a deal.
Dooku didn't want to kill Anakin. He and Sidious had plans for him, as revealed in the ROTS novel. Nor did he want to kill Opress.