Originally posted by Kazenji
At least with Hope she's okay with Wolverine killing her, if all else fails not being able to control the Phoenix.
Even before AvX the two of them had that agreement, it's the reason Wolverine never allowed himself to get close to Hope in the first place. He knows that if someone had to stop her, it would fall on his shoulders. Truthfully he probably should just kill her. They are gambling the lives of 7 billion people on the hope that a 14 year old girl will have the will to control a cosmic force of destruction that has destroyed dozens of civilians in this arc alone simply on its way to Hope. The wait and see approach doesn't make any sense. If they wait and she can't control it... then what? What is Wolverine going to do to Hope with the Pheonix Force? Him killing her now even without it stretches credulity enough. And he is the only one with the balls to pull the trigger.
Originally posted by peejayd
* they are many characters that can kill Hope if she can't control the Phoenix... why does it always have to be freakin' Wolverine?
Like who?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Truthfully he probably should just kill her. They are gambling the lives of 7 billion people on the hope that a 14 year old girl will have the will to control a cosmic force of destruction that has destroyed dozens of civilians in this arc alone simply on its way to Hope. The wait and see approach doesn't make any sense. If they wait and she can't control it... then what?
* it actually part of my rant...
* there has been an issue on "who threw the first punch" to jumpstart the Avengers - X-men war... physically, Cyclops did... but technically, it was Captain America... he did not wish to talk or to negotiate diplomatically, but he just goes to Utopia and demanded (not ask) their leader to hand him his "messiah" grandchild, and that is not the way to talk to someone you claimed to respect... Cap won't just take no for an answer and Cyke unleashing an optic blast is out of the issue... whether Cyke threw a punch or not, if he declined Cap's proposal/demand, Cap will unleash hell on Utopia by unloading the Avengers in the cloaked Helicarrier... it was confirmed by Emma that Cap won't leave without Hope... as i have read in other forums, Cyke blasting Cap telling him to get off his island can be paralleled to Leonidas kicking a Persian messenger to a large pit saying "this is Sparta!", which is so d@mn cool... this is Utopia, Cap!* next, taking Hope in protective custody? Cap obviously does not know what he's thinking or doing... how in the blue hell can he (or the Avengers) protect Hope from the cosmic entity Phoenix? and what is the difference of Hope staying in an isolated island of Utopia compared to Avengers' headquarters or Stark Tower surrounded by thousands of innocent people? considering that both teams (esp. Cap and Cyke) "talk" periodically, why didn't Cap just went to talk to Cyke about the matter and find a better solution rather than forcing Cyke to hand Hope to them? the problem was --- Cap asked for the advice of just one equally stupid and stubborn man like him --- Wolverine... Logan foretold Cap that Cyke won't have it his (Cap's) way, so Cap's ego says, "oh yeah? we'll see about that"... Steve Rogers and the Avengers are not the law... and they need to keep their egos in check... and i also find it hypocritical for Cap by interfering - remember the crime of Scarlet Witch? eventhough Wanda's a mutant, Cap does not want the X-men to interfere because it was an "Avengers problem", fine! now Cap wants to interfere in an "X-men problem"? that's hypocritical... everybody knows that Phoenix was always an "X-men problem" and has an "X-men solution"... in Uncanny X-men #9-10, it shows that Cap reiterated the difference of priorities of Avengers and X-men, but Cap does not know everything... he does not even know that eventhough Cyke pulled his team out of action, it was because there was a crisis in another place... two crises, in the end, was saved because of it, but Cap does not budge, judgmentally saying that the X-men prioritize mutant problems over anything else --- of course! they ARE mutants! but they still save and protect those who hated them and that makes them heroes! Cap is really getting in my nerves...
* next, i have heard in other forums that Cyclops is lunatic for wanting to harness or control the PF (Phoenix Force) and for believing that it can save the mutant population... for a non-mutant, yeah it's ridiculous... but if you have read past issues of X-men comics, Cable entrusted Cyke with Hope knowing full well that Hope is really the Mutant Messiah --- still doubting? Cable's a time-traveller for goodness' sake! he already witnessed the destruction of Earth without Hope! and that's a pretty solid proof for Cyclops to believe in Cable - not to mention why would his own son lie to him? no one can control the PF? ahem, Jean Grey, Scott's dead wife once did it... not convinced? anyone cared to ask another Phoenix avatar for confirmation? who? Rachel Grey-Summers! she confirmed (Wolverine and the X-men #10) that PF can be controlled, and that's the reason why she was secretly helping Scott against the Avengers... Scott's ex-wife, son and daughter... there's no reason to doubt Cyclops' judgment and sanity in my opinion...
* and Wolverine, you freakin' idiot... the only thing you can ever think of is killing Hope? wow, you split the X-men in two because you don't want children to fight and kill, yet you yourself wanted to kill Hope? and you reformed the X-force without Cyke's knowledge, which Cyke himself created and disbanded? Wolverine and Cap are the greatest hypocrites and have the biggest egos in comics today...
* there is no "what-if" that PF can be controlled, Rachel confirmed that... the "what-if" here is if Hope can do it and if Hope is really the Phoenix's target... it may be Rachel, Emma or even Wanda for goodness' sake but the fact that Hope recently manifested Phoenix powers somehow proves she is the most likely target... question is, is Hope capable of controlling it? yes! she is the mutant messiah and she is an omega-level mutant...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And he is the only one with the balls to pull the trigger.
* no, you're wrong... your statement makes all other characters pathetic... it's not that Logan is the only one with "balls", but rather he is the only one dirty enough for easy picking to do it... but other characters without PIS/CIS can do it the same or even better...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Like who?
* do you think Logan can kill Hope without Hope letting herself be killed? this is the Phoenix we're talking about... truthfully, no one can kill a Phoenix-possessed character, whether it be Jean, Rachel or Hope if they don't allow themselves to be killed... needless to say, it doesn't always have to be Wolverine... it can be Hulk, Rulk, Thor, heck even IronMan and Magneto can do it IF the Phoenix avatar allows herself to be killed...
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Well they could take her to an uninhabited planet so the Phoenix would go there instead
* as of AvX #3 or #4 (correct me if i'm wrong), the two teams already raced to the moon, that's where they traced Hope... but Earth needs moon 😱 they can't afford the moon to be destroyed... yeah, the safest should be in an uninhabited planet, and from there, they can observe if Hope can control the Phoenix or not... i have no doubt that she is capable, but she's a newbie and she can't even control her own powers in the last few months... but recently, she was shown using her powers confidently...
Originally posted by peejayd
* it actually part of my rant...* there is no "what-if" that PF can be controlled, Rachel confirmed that... the "what-if" here is if Hope can do it and if Hope is really the Phoenix's target... it may be Rachel, Emma or even Wanda for goodness' sake but the fact that Hope recently manifested Phoenix powers somehow proves she is the most likely target... question is, is Hope capable of controlling it? yes! she is the mutant messiah and she is an omega-level mutant...
* no, you're wrong... your statement makes all other characters pathetic... it's not that Logan is the only one with "balls", but rather he is the only one dirty enough for easy picking to do it... but other characters without PIS/CIS can do it the same or even better...
* do you think Logan can kill Hope without Hope letting herself be killed? this is the Phoenix we're talking about... truthfully, no one can kill a Phoenix-possessed character, whether it be Jean, Rachel or Hope if they don't allow themselves to be killed... needless to say, it doesn't always have to be Wolverine... it can be Hulk, Rulk, Thor, heck even IronMan and Magneto can do it IF the Phoenix avatar allows herself to be killed...
Yeah I saw that part of your rant... it was stupid. How many times did Jean lose her shit, become the Dark Phoenix then beg for someone to kill her in her brief moments of lucidity? Rachel proved she could control it? Literally the first thing Rachel did with the Phoenix Force was try and destroy the universe, and she never wielded as much of the PF as Jean did. This is also a much more complete and unified PF having drawn in all the various fragments of its powers when it prepared for Hope. Cable having been to the future and seen a destroyed earth? Who cares? There are infinite future time lines... and they all change on a whim. Cable saw one future, not the future. Hope can't even control her own mutant abilities, why would anyone have faith in her keeping the Dark Phoenix on a leash? Wolverine been the Phoenix host before, and unlike Rachel he's actually had to contend with compulsion of the Dark Phoenix.
There is little doubt that Hope is the target of the Phoenix Force, even back in Second Coming we've seen the Phoenix Emblem burning in her eyes, and the bonfire surging up in the shape of the Phoenix around her. Then there is the fact that she has tapped into the damn thing several times, and Cable stated that Hope is the Phoenix in X-Sanction.
No, Wolverine is the only one with balls to do it. If you turn of CIS... you aren't even talking about the characters anymore, just their powers. In character Wolverine is the only one involved in this event who would do what needs to be done.
No... which is why Wolverine should kill her now before she becomes one with the Phoenix Force. It's not a matter of who could do it, it's a matter of who would.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah I saw that part of your rant... it was stupid. How many times did Jean lose her shit, become the Dark Phoenix then beg for someone to kill her in her brief moments of lucidity? Rachel proved she could control it? Literally the first thing Rachel did with the Phoenix Force was try and destroy the universe, and she never wielded as much of the PF as Jean did. This is also a much more complete and unified PF having drawn in all the various fragments of its powers when it prepared for Hope. Cable having been to the future and seen a destroyed earth? Who cares? There are infinite future time lines... and they all change on a whim. Cable saw one future, not the future. Hope can't even control her own mutant abilities, why would anyone have faith in her keeping the Dark Phoenix on a leash? Wolverine been the Phoenix host before, and unlike Rachel he's actually had to contend with compulsion of the Dark Phoenix.
* this is actually a defense on why Cyclops has this drive on Hope and the Phoenix will bring positive effects on mutant population... my rant was not stupid, and it's logical actually... by trying to refute it, you're actually being one-sided... tell me, srank, are you talking about the Phoenix or the DARK Phoenix? you seemed confused... the Phoenix actually HELPED Jean from solar radiation storm? and i quote (Marvel Wiki) --- Phoenix Force responded to Jean's anguish and telepathic calls for help, as she was dying aboard the space shuttle. It appeared before her, shaping its form and consciousness after Jean's own. The Phoenix Force told her that she was dying, but that by taking the Phoenix Force's hand, Jean would gain her "heart's desire". What Jean most wanted was to save the lives of the X-Men and herself. Jean held onto the Phoenix Force's arm and fell into a coma-like state and simultaneously, the Phoenix Force fully took on the form, memories, and personality of Jean Grey, by absorbing a portion of her consciousness. The Phoenix Force used its powers to ensure the survival of the X-Men in their return to Earth and crash landing in Jamaica Bay, off New York City. It was also responsible for casting Jean into a coma-like state and placing her within a cocoon-like construction, which rested for years at the bottom of Jamaica Bay, while her injuries healed completely. Thus, the Phoenix Force fulfilled its pledge to Jean...
* in Zero Tolerance, While training, Jean began wearing a costume similar to the one the Phoenix Force incarnation of her wore and seemed to be manifesting the fire bird effect with her telekinesis. While this worried Scott, Jean reassured him that she was well and simply training herself...
* the Phoenix Force also helped Rachel in her journey from a certain timeline, where PF revealed itself to be Kate Pryde... if you're not stubborn, you'll "see" the PF not as a destruction ONLY... it can help and be beneficial...
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, Wolverine is the only one with balls to do it. If you turn of CIS... you aren't even talking about the characters anymore, just their powers. In character Wolverine is the only one involved in this event who would do what needs to be done.No... which is why Wolverine should kill her now before she becomes one with the Phoenix Force. It's not a matter of who could do it, it's a matter of who would.
* are you a Wolverine-fanboy now? i don't remember you as one before... you're being unreasonable... in character, any character would also do it if it needs to be done... that's part of being a superhero, tough decisions, to kill a threat that will save the lives of the many...
* and me asking, "why does it always have to be freakin' Wolverine?" is actually a rhetorical question... but if you want to answer it, you're dumb... it's a sarcastic way of saying, "it's Wolverine again because he's so d@mn overrated"... read between the lines, srank... you used to post intelligent comments before... 😉
Wow, I'm really missing out-
1. How did IRON man beat Magneto?
2. How did Gambit, a mutant with enhanced agility who is still slower and less agile than a baseline human with an adamantium skeleton (Bullseye, who by the way skewered him in NO TIME) last for any significant time against Captain America?
I mean unless these guys are acting like the Great Lakes Avengers and just sitting around watching TV while Squirrel Girl does all the work, I don't see some of these outcomes happening.
Updated list:
Avenger wins:
Captain America beats Cyclops (AvX #2)
Captain America beats Gambit (AvX Versus #2/AvX #4/Wolverine & the X-Men #11)
Captain America beats Warpath (AvX #4)
Iron Man beats Magneto (AvX Versus #1)
Iron Man droid beats Cannonball (X-Men Legacy #267)
Iron Man droid beats Frenzy (X-Men Legacy #267)
Iron Man droid beats Gambit (X-Men Legacy #267)
Iron Man droid beats Mimic (X-Men Legacy #267)
Iron Man droid beats Shadowcat (X-Men Legacy #267)
Rulk beats Colossnaut (Uncanny X-Men #11 & AvX #2) (Clossnaut lost intentionally)
She Hulk beats Hepzibah (Uncanny X-Men #12)
Thing beats Namor (AvX Versus #1)
Thing beats Sunspot (Uncanny X-Men #12)
X-Men Wins:
Colossnaut beats Spider-Man (AvX Versus #2)
Dr.Nemesis beats Quicksilver (AvX #2)
Hope beats Wolverine (AvX #2)
Magik beats Dr.Strange (AvX #2-3)
Namor beats Cage (Uncanny X-Men #12)
Rogue beats Falcon (X-Men Legacy #267)
Rogue beats Iron Man droid (X-Men Legacy #267)
Rogue beats Moon Knight (X-Men Legacy #267) (MK lost intentionally)
Rogue beats She Hulk (X-Men Legacy #267)
Stalemates:
Captain America vs. Wolverine (AvX #3)
Moon Knight vs. Gambit (X-Men Legacy #267)
Namor vs. Thing (Uncanny X-Men #12)
Only fights that are conclusive or have some substance (Rather then just one panel and not shown again) is mentioned in the above list.