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33%
I mean, seriously: Plagueis has fully knowledge on Bane. Killing him is the easiest thing ever: All he does is kill the orbalisk coat by shutting down their midichlorians.
Orbalisks die and release their poison into Bane, taking him out instantly. That leaves Zannah alone against Plagueis who has shown he can handle skilled duelists and is himself a master of the form, with superior strength, speed and skill. Not to mention far better force power.
Her sorcery isn't even a factor here. He's far too strong for that
At the moment we're all contemplating the issue Plagueis' mastery of the midichlorians creates. As of yet I've seen nothing to suggest that the technique is unblockable by conventional means in the same way that theres evidence that Trayas GigaDrain is. The only person Plagueis demonstrated the ability on is a non-force sensitive. All I've heard is some speculation from Gideon giving his opinion on the matter.
So I don't see how it'll be the easiest thing ever.
What's the issue? The Orbalisks have no defense against it whatsoever.
It also brushes over the fact that Plagueis invented the technique and thus his opponents have no knowledge nor defense against it. Especially when Bane wouldn't know when his orbalisks were being attacked from it.
Oh, and it's entirely possible to block being drained by the force as we've seen in the Bane trilogy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I mean, seriously: Plagueis has fully knowledge on Bane. Killing him is the easiest thing ever: All he does is kill the orbalisk coat by shutting down their midichlorians.
Orbalisks die and release their poison into Bane, taking him out instantly. That leaves Zannah alone against Plagueis who has shown he can handle skilled duelists and is himself a master of the form, with superior strength, speed and skill. Not to mention far better force power.
Her sorcery isn't even a factor here. He's far too strong for that [/B]
Originally posted by Lightsnake
What's the issue? The Orbalisks have no defense against it whatsoever.
I wasn't suggesting that Orbalisks would be blocking it, but rather that Bane would.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It also brushes over the fact that Plagueis invented the technique and thus his opponents have no knowledge nor defense against it.
This is what I was referring to. The idea that theres no way to defend against the technique is one that is currently unsupported imo.
Especially when Bane wouldn't know when his orbalisks were being attacked from it.
Because Bane doesn't have Force-senses or precognition?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, and it's entirely possible to block being drained by the force as we've seen in the Bane trilogy
Correct.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't suggesting that Orbalisks would be blocking it, but rather that Bane would.
This is what I was referring to. The idea that theres no way to defend against the technique is one that is currently unsupported imo.
Okay. Show me a defense. I'll wait
Because Bane doesn't have Force-senses or precognition?
Not like he was blindsided multiple times, even in the series that was the literary equivalent of jacking him off. By Umbaran assassins, Farfalla nailed him with force stasis, by the Huntress in book 3, by Zannah's sorcery..
He blocks this attack [b]how? It's an attack not directed at Bane, that there's no evidence he can detect (he doesn't have anything resembling Plagueis's senses and no demonstrated senses on the level of sensing midichlorians in a being, let alone attacks on them
It is an attack Bane has no idea of, is far, far more precise than anything he has ever done, has no known defense, and wouldn't even be against Bane himself.
You'd think Luceno couldn't have made it any clearer Plagueis stood at a level beyond his predecessors
Correct. [/B]
So puts a hole in the "Unblockable giga drain" silliness.
It is an attack Bane has no idea of, is far, far more precise than anything he has ever done, has no known defense, and wouldn't even be against Bane himself.
Using this logic, Zannah would wtfpwn Plagueis with her sorcery because he doesn't have the power for it. Or is this another one of your double standard arguments?
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is quite humorous. Apparently Plagueis' technique is universal and there is no defense (despite the lack of knowledge on it). Also, I guess Krayt defeats all the other sith before him because he has "full knowledge" of them.
Cute.
Except...Plagueis uses a technique only he and Palpatine knew. One Bane has zero knowledge of. Plagueis has the means to defeat Bane and the knowledge. Combine them?
Plagueis needs two things:
1. Knowledge on the orbalisks
2. The ability to kill them.
Nothing indicates he can break her defenses.
He defeated Venamis in direct saber combat, who was capable of continuously switching hands and forms. Hell, when Plagueis simply focused on defense, his guard was impenetrable.
This unsupported assumption is based on??
the fact that we've seen Zannah's sorcery broken before, and the same technique overcome by power and will. We know Plagueis lacked the innate talent for sorcery, but yet when studying for it?
But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will
substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will.
In one of multiple passages on their powers?
paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for
sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric
war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen
out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force.
No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been
tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.
It's very interesting, though:
Plagueis's ability to kill through midichlorians has never been blocked by anyone. Zannah's sorcery has been defeated before.
But somehow Bane and Zannah will survive the former and Palgueis's can't handle the latter
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Using this logic, Zannah would wtfpwn Plagueis with her sorcery because he doesn't have the power for it. Or is this another one of your double standard arguments?
Plagueis knows all about sorcery and it is directly stated it's not beyond him.
We've seen sorcery resisted by someone who had zero talent of the art, and Plagueis directly says if there's a Sith more powerful than him, he hasn't heard of them. And he knows of Kun, Nihilus, Ragnos, Vitiate, Bane, Zannah, Cognus, etc. The back of the book even proclaims him as the most powerful who ever lived.
I mean, Plagueis kills Bane with zero effort. All he has to do is shut down his orbalisk quote and Bane is a twitching, poisoned wreck while Plagueis crushes Zannah with superior physical abilities. Limit to a saber fight and he'd probably still beat her anyways. Give him force abilities and she's even more screwed. Zannah hasn't shown she can survive him. She couldn't hang with Bane in saber combat (Or Sarro Xaj. She would've been screwed if not for Johun Othone several times) and Plagueis's physical abilities are superior.
Zannah's sorcery has been directly countered. On page. Set Harth survived it and clawed his way out several days later. An actual Dark Lord busted free in short order. Krayt broke it from Wyyrlok (who was a superior practitioner to Zannah, given he could multitask with it)
Originally posted by Lightsnake
]Cute.
Except...Plagueis uses a technique only he and Palpatine knew. One Bane has zero knowledge of. Plagueis has the means to defeat Bane and the knowledge. Combine them?Plagueis needs two things:
1. Knowledge on the orbalisks
2. The ability to kill them.
He defeated Venamis in direct saber combat, who was capable of continuously switching hands and forms. Hell, when Plagueis simply focused on defense, his guard was impenetrable.
the fact that we've seen Zannah's sorcery broken before, and the same technique overcome by power and will. We know Plagueis lacked the innate talent for sorcery, but yet when studying for it?
But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will
substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will.[/b]
In one of multiple passages on their powers?
paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for
sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric
war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen
out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force.
No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been
tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.
It's very interesting, though:
Plagueis's ability to kill through midichlorians has never been blocked by anyone. Zannah's sorcery has been defeated before.
But somehow Bane and Zannah will survive the former and Palgueis's can't handle the latter [/B]I didn't say that. I said that it could go either way.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
If this technique was somehow relevant to combat situations, Sidious would have used it multiple times throughout the movies.
Palpatine isn't confirmed to have mastered it to Plagueis's extent with regards to this. Unlike him, Plagueis has shown willingness to use it when he wants to kill someone as well. Plus, Plagueis absolutely despises, long drawn out battles. He's shown to kill without pleasure, without fanfare, and as quickly as possible. Palpatine, as Plagueis says, has the bloodlust of a serial killer who much prefers drawing things out. Unless you want to say Kit Fisto could have resisted it, of course...
So was Zannah's, what makes his feat more impressive than hers? Yoda mastered all 7 forms yet was unable to defeat Sidious.
Yoda only used Ataru in actual combat as far as I recall, just like Dooku used Makashi.
Zannah's guard wasn't impenetrable. Sarro Xaj and Bane had her beat in direct saber combat. She only survived in the first instance because Johun kept getting in the way and he was a horrible duelist.
I doubt Zannah can outlast him. The second he realizes her style of fighting, he'll just do what he did with Venamis and let her go on the offensive
If Bane couldn't overcome the tendrils, there's nothing suggesting Plagueis can.
What prevents him from baking Zannah in Force Lightning while she's using it? Or snapping his fingers and rupturing the vessels in her brain?
Zannah is incapable of defense while using that technique.
And Bane's attempt to overcome them equated to trying to destroy them without force powers.
Great! We get an insight on his thoughts. Explain their relevance.
That's about sorcery. Plagueis, like Bane, lacked the innate ability for it. He could still have mastered it.[Quote]
Dear lord, explain the relevance of this.
So the tiny little fact of Plagueis [b]literally overcoming the will of the Force at a point where it might have killed him and Palpatine for what they were doing by sheer power is just irrelevant
Plagueis and Palpatine had the will to throw the force out of whack and resist its attempts to stop them, and Zannah's breakable spell will solo them both?
No it hasn't. Bane could do nothing against the tendrils.
Show me Bane trying a defense
I didn't say that. I said that it could go either way. [/B]
Bane ends up a twitching, sobbing wreck from the poison in his veins in a split second if Plagueis gets his way. Zannah won't use the tendrils first, and if she does, what stops Palpatine or Plagueis from killing her with the force when she's not capable of defense?
Never mind if she engages either in saber combat, she is screwed
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And he'll do that how?
A conventional Force Shield perhaps?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Okay. Show me a defense. I'll wait.
I don't see why you think a specialised defence is necessary.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not like he was blindsided multiple times, even in the series that was the literary equivalent of jacking him off. By Umbaran assassins,
Bane was meditating, the Umbaran Assassins specialise in, well, assassination and Bane did sense them.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Farfalla nailed him with force stasis, by the Huntress in book 3, by Zannah's sorcery..
Obviously Banes Force senses are not perfect any more any Force Users are. You don't see me citing Palpatine as being taken off-gaurd by Vader as proof that Bane could snap his neck in an instant. I could list hundreds of examples of Force Users failing to detect something in the Force. That doesn't mean that they do not have those senses. We might as well argue that all Force Users will fail to detect attacks. Is that what you want us to do?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He blocks this attack how?
I've seen no evidence that conventional means would be inadequate.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's an attack not directed at Bane, that there's no evidence he can detect (he doesn't have anything resembling Plagueis's senses and no demonstrated senses on the level of sensing midichlorians in a being, let alone attacks on them
Its an attack that will directly cause Banes death, so his danger sense should pick it up. Using the Force on an object to cause harm to your opponent is hardly new in Star Wars, and hardly undetectable. Its really no different than Ventress throwing tree limbs at Anakin.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It is an attack Bane has no idea of, is far, far more precise than anything he has ever done, has no known defense, and wouldn't even be against Bane himself.
I doubt thats entirely accurate in regards to the precision. Remember that Bane was manipulating sub-atomic particles at one point.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You'd think Luceno couldn't have made it any clearer Plagueis stood at a level beyond his predecessors
Plenty of writers try to make their creations 'teh most powerfullest evar'. This forum exists partially to determine whether thats accurate or not.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
So puts a hole in the "Unblockable giga drain" silliness.
No it doesn't. As I've explained on more than one occasion the 'Giga Drain' does not behave like a conventional drain and can be seen more as a severance between life and the Force than an actual drain in any rate.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Plagueis knows all about sorcery and it is directly stated it's not beyond him.
And its also stated that Plagueis has little real talent for sorcery:
"From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to adeficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well." (pg. 278)
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Plagueis's ability to kill through midichlorians has never been blocked by anyone. Zannah's sorcery has been defeated before.
I think thats more because Plagueis has never actually used the ability on anyone of note, rather than a pre-supposed 'l33tness' of the skill.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Zannah's sorcery has been directly countered. On page. Set Harth survived it and clawed his way out several days later. An actual Dark Lord busted free in short order. Krayt broke it from Wyyrlok (who was a superior practitioner to Zannah, given he could multitask with it)
Remember, this thread takes place on Ambria. Tentacle Rape is a option here.