Originally posted by Lightsnake
A force shield is a creation of energy with the force that blocks an actual attack incoming at you that is physical.
You're making a grave error believing Plagueis is even using a conventional attack, too. He's not. He's speaking to Bane's midichlorians. A force shield won't stop that, why would it?
What makes you think that Force Shields are limited to the physical? Ignoring of course that the Force itself defies being limited to the physical, heres two quotes:
Rule of Two.Like the Jedi and Sith, one of the first techniques Shadow Assassins learned was the creation of a Force barrier. Channeling their power, they could form a protective shield around themselves to negate the Force attacks of their enemies.
Dynasty of EvilSet fired out a sharp burst of dark side power in a shimmering wave designed to knock her from her feet. Zannah easily countered by throwing up a protective energy barrier, the simplest and most effective way for one Force-user to defend against the attacks of another.
It says attacks period. Nothing about Force Shields being limited to the physical at all.
And if he's talking to the midichlorians through the Force then again thats hardly unblockable. There are ways of blocking telepathy and other mental abilities. Simply put theres nothing you've said that even nearly indicates that the attack is unblockable.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nobody has ever tried and failed, no. Luke, however, states that the way to block it is countering the telekinesis with his own when Sedriss and Goir used it on Kam Solusar in Dark Empire 2 Luke, btw, had used a force shield to block blasts from an AT AT blast.
And that means that theres absoluetly no other way a Force Choke can be blocked? How about that merely being the most effective way to block it?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, how many at once again? He was fighting an army of powerful opponents there. As I recall...how many Doan assassins nearly took out Bane? With the Huntress?
I can't recall. 800? I'm just saying, any Force User can fail to detect an attack at the convenience of the story. Sometimes writers just forget that they can even do that.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And? He's got a much better track record than Bane.
At least Bane wasn't surprised and physically overcome by Princess Freaking Leia at one point. See, I can do this thing too.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Palpatine underestimated Yoda. He realized how wrong he was to do so early.
He didn't just underestimate him, he failed to sense Yoda's attack just as Bane has in the same way. It happens and it probably shouldn't, but it does.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, there's a reason your argument here is incorrect: You're relying on several false premises. Bane has shown nothing to indicate he can perceive midichlorians, or their being affected with the Force. True or false? He has not shown the control over things like midichlorians, true or false?
I've never claimed either of those things, so I don't see how I can be falsely relying upon them.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. Bane has failed to perceive things at a far, far larger scale. You say he can manipulate things at a sub-atomic level? Okay, so can any force user who makes a Holocron.
Here on KMC we argue characters based not on their weakest moments otherwise I would say that DE Sidious gets beaten by Leia. Just because Sidious failed to percieve Yoda's Force Push he'll never percieve any attack in a forum match? I think that what we do here is argue that if a character can do something then they will do something. Bane possesses Force Senses and Danger Sense. I'm not going to assume that Bane rolls a natural one and gets taken out by a random attack because he wasn't paying attention. Here we argue characters at their best, no their worst. Stop trying to undermine Bane just to make your favourite characters look better. You want to say that Bane can't sense attacks for crap? I'll pull the same shit in every single Sidious debate from now on. If you want to actually use common sense however, we can continue.
Look, I never claimed that Sidious couldn't block Traya's Giga Drain because he wouldn't sense it and even try to block it, did I? Despite the fact that Sidious' precognition has failed him before. We just don't do that in these debates.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And you should acknowledge this while we're at it: Plagueis trained [b]decades to master the sensory abilities necessary to perceive and manipulate Midichlorians. In fact, Tenebrous says:
"To detect this infinitesimal percentage would require the precision of a Bith." Plagueis had to train it himself with his own technique. [/b]
Good for him? Relevence?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
To perceive the effects on his midichlorians, perhaps?
Why would he need to? His Danger Sense goes off and tells him to block and he does.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hey, maybe you should check a bit: YOU claimed at first Bane could block it.
Start proving up, thanks.
No, you said that Plagueis could use the technique to maybe solo and then claimed that 'Killing [Bane] is the easiest thing ever'. I replied that nothing I'd seen suggests that it would be that easy or tha the technique was unblockable and you said that 'his opponents have no knowledge nor defense against it.' You made the claims first, so YOU start proving up.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because, maybe you simply don't get this, [b]it's not a physical attack. It's not a rush of energy. It's telepathy to his midichlorians. It's ordering them.Pushing you off a cliff is a physical assault. Talking you into jumping off is not[/b]
Except Plagueis isn't just talking to them, by his own words: 'I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians."
Prove that that is unblockable.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
In The Tenebrous Way, when Plagueis's examination of Tenebrous ended, Plagueis couldn't send Tenebrous midichlorians moving into his body.Inform me: Where is your proof Bane can detect it? Or that it's blockable?
What is the relevence of that exactly?
That isn't how we operate. We don't just assume something isn't blockable without proof.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I am using the point that Plagueis can use a method to kill:
That is beyond Bane's sensory perception
That has no demonstrated method of being stopped
That Bane has not shown he can block this directed at other beings.
As explained already non of this matters.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Furthermore, damaging your point is Zannah was capable of using a Sith spell on Bane regardless of any force shields he brought up.
Yes, some techniques cannot be blocked in regulare ways or even in no ways at all. Your job is to prove that Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation is one such way.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Plagueis certainly can deflect attacks, as he's demonstrated the pre requisites to do so.
But of course Bane can't.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Right, in incredible pain when he had the upper hand? And you'd think the force might warn him Kas'im wasn't done when he was gloating.
The Force isn't msn. It doesn't tap you on the shoulder and tell you that the guy you're fight has another lightsaber stashed and that he has an ace up his sleeve. It guides a users actions and lets them react to threats before they occur via precognition.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Inform me: What ever said midichlorians are larger than atoms?I've also provided evidence from The Tenebrous way that Plagueis trained decades to study midichlorians specifically.
Well they're micro-organisms that reside inside of cells so presumably they're comprised of matter and all matter is made up of atoms.
I still don't see what exactly that proves.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, you're incorrect. Plagueis trained for decades for them.And it's said Plagueis has no record of a Sith of even equal power to him previously.
From what I heard Tenebrous notes in The Tenebrous Way that Plagueis has an innate gift to detect and sense midi-chlorian activity.
Yes, clearly that is binding. That changes everything. Plagueis doesn't think anyone else was as awesome as he was so obviously he wins every fight. Thank god you've opened our eyes. Wait, does Sidious saying no-one can stop him now also mean that he's invincible?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hiding isn't defending.
In order to defend agains tthis, Bane would have to manipulate his midichlorians to not shut down on him. AND the midichlorian sof the orbalisks themselves
Semantics.
No he wouldn't. Prove evidence that thats the only way to stop the technique.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, you're being foolish enough to claim Bane can block it off and you're saying "but nothing says there's no defense!" The force will just warn Bane he's in danger, even though he hasn't shown he can do anything against it. You've laughably relied on a force shield as a defense to Plagueis chatting with his midichlorians.
Untill you actually get some evidence to support your claim, thats all I need to do.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
So why are you debating?
Because I can.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bnae had no mastery, and he could manage against it.
Considering that Zannah's sorcery killed Bane, lolno.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Are you suggesting Bane can hold two more powerful Sith off? Palpatine alone is better than Bane in pretty much everything.
Actually its: Can Bane hold them off for a few seconds? Answer: Yes. I'm not suggesting that Bane can take them both on at once, but he can stall them, certainly.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Here's how the fight goes:Zannah tries this, Plagueis simply initiates his midichlorian shut down on both opponents. He uses it on Bane's orbalisks, killing them instantly.
Prove that Plagueis can use the technique to kill instantly.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
As it is a stated fact from the Tenebrous way that Plagueis only achieved these perception abilities through decades of study and it is an original technique that induces death, the only thing you have is the potential for Bane to possibly sense it.
Its more than potential. All Jedi have precognition. I see absolutely nothing suggesting that Bane will not sense the attack.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, wait, except Bane won't be able to because the presence of Palpatine and Plagueis will be clouding the force and their intentions, because that's another ability they have.
One that they can do instantly and without spending a few months fighting the Force?
If not, please explain this ability.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And since he can't sense their intentions with them shrouded by the Dark Side (Oh, and last I checked: Cognus, before any formal training, one upped him because she clouded herself from him as well. On nothing but instinct.) Palpatine was capable of masking his intentions to Plagueis, as well as even the mightiest Jedi in history to that point. Plagueis could do the same thing, why would he be able to perceive and stop this?
I fail to see how this is a combat ability. Though I'll note that all Force Users can blunt the perceptions of their opponents as explained in PoD. Its how they don't perfectly counter each other all the time. And that was Cognus' innate special ability and Bane was able to overcome it. Don't act as if her doing it proves a damn thing about Banes senses.
Nephthys
Yes, clearly that is binding. That changes everything. Plagueis doesn't think anyone else was as awesome as he was so obviously he wins every fight. Thank god you've opened our eyes. Wait, does Sidious saying no-one can stop him now also mean that he's invincible?
I think both of you need to set aside your biases an examine that quote a little more.
I agree: it's not bindingconclusive in its implication—Plagueis makes room for potential exceptions: those who have eluded his attention, either by total absence of lore or the exclusion of it to absent records.
On the other hand, it would be silly to just write it off as ego maniacal hogwash. Plagueis is self-aware with respect to his Force-based limitations: his natural deficiency in the realm of Sith sorcery, his failure to master certain Sith powers—invisibility, flight, teleportation (which he notes other Sith have been known to master), and so forth.
Likewise, he is the beneficiary of a tremendous wealth of lore and is familiar enough with his predecessors to namedrop plenty of them throughout the book and make reference to specific characteristics and powers they were known to possess.
Now I'm not saying another word on the matter. Plagueis killed a fricking goon in his bed. Theres nothing suggesting this technique is unblockable, can kill swiftly or even can used in combat situations. If Plagueis actually used it on a real opponent that would be another thing. But there is zero evidence on its capabilities.
I can't believe after how much shit I got for claiming that Trayas technique was unblockable, when that had been directly stated as being unblockable and had 3 instances of it being used on powerful opponents to back it up, that you guys try the same thing on a technique thats been used once on a non-force sensitive with nothing to back up its unblockability.
/grouch.
😐
I'm convinced that Plagueis can manipulate an orbalisk: non-sentient and untrained in the ways of the Force, incapable of defending itself, particularly from a technique Bane is unlikely (so unlikely as to literally toe the line of certainty) to detect.
As I explained to you elsewhere, I don't believe it's some sort of ace-in-the-hole, instakill power that can disintegrate Force users. The aggregate of midi-chlorians would be immense in someone like Bane and while Plagueis could undoubtedly exert his will upon them, it would probably take far more time than would be available to him here.
But that doesn't matter when he can just manipulate the orbalisk.
Nephthys
I can't believe after how much shit I got for claiming that Trayas technique was unblockable, when that had been directly stated as being unblockable and had 3 instances of it being used on powerful opponents to back it up, that you guys try the same thing on a technique thats been used once on a non-force sensitive with nothing to back up its unblockability.
Traya's technique constitutes an attack (which Force shields are noted to defend against) and the technique has been resisted in the form of the Dark Reaper.
In contrast, Plagueis communicates directly with the midi-chlorians—something only he and Sidious are known to perceive—and exerts his will upon them, instructing them to obey him.
Conjecture would be more appropriate; there's basis for all of that.
Plagueis did manipulate midi-chlorians; he did use that ability to kill and he did use it casually; it took natural affinity to detect (with concencentration), which Bane is not known to have, and decades of specialized training and meditation to hone, which Bane is not known to have; orbalisks aren't sentient.
Lightsnake's notion that Plagueis could kill Bane is farfetched; to suggest that he could do so instantly is ludacris. But the idea that he can influence the midi-chlorians of an orbalisk is perfectly reasonable.
If you're that eager for Bane to win, just ditch the orbalisks.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What makes you think that Force Shields are limited to the physical? Ignoring of course that the Force itself defies being limited to the physical, heres two quotes:
/Quote]
Wow, you've managed to provide they can stop force attacks, which...manifest as physical energy, fancy that, despite ignoring the clear evidence provided earlier.
It says attacks period. Nothing about Force Shields being limited to the physical at all.
Which is why Luke didn't use one to block a force choke and implied it'd be ineffective[Quote]
And if he's talking to the midichlorians through the Force then again thats hardly unblockable. There are ways of blocking telepathy and other mental abilities. Simply put theres nothing you've said that even nearly indicates that the attack is unblockable.
Except Bane has no idea how to do this, thanks for playing, Neph.
Show me something indicating Bane can block it, or Plagueis's speaking to his midichlorians. Particularly with no knowledge.
And that means that theres absoluetly no other way a Force Choke can be blocked? How about that merely being the most effective way to block it?
Luke said he had to learn from the Jedi holocron how to block it. How interesting if a shield could do th-
Oh, wait.
We've seen force shields bypassed entirely, btw. The Huntress did it to Bane after Prkaith, funnily enough. Her [b]attack to weaken his force abilities worked when he has a barrier up.
I can't recall. 800? I'm just saying, any Force User can fail to detect an attack at the convenience of the story. Sometimes writers just forget that they can even do that.
Try 22. Cognus, Jedder and 20 mercenaries.
And don't throw that "convenience" idiocy. Bane has failed consistently to do this. He didn't even sense sonic disruptors until they exploded
At least Bane wasn't surprised and physically overcome by Princess Freaking Leia at one point. See, I can do this thing too.
He didn't just underestimate him, he failed to sense Yoda's attack just as Bane has in the same way. It happens and it probably shouldn't, but it does.
I've never claimed either of those things, so I don't see how I can be falsely relying upon them.
Despite outright saying his spider sense will warn him
Didn't warn him of Cognus's attack.
Here on KMC we argue characters based not on their weakest moments otherwise I would say that DE Sidious gets beaten by Leia.
If you're stupid or dishonest enough to ignore Palpatine was intentionally provoking her, I'm sure
Just because Sidious failed to percieve Yoda's Force Push he'll never percieve any attack in a forum match? I think that what we do here is argue that if a character can do something then they will do something. Bane possesses Force Senses and Danger Sense.
Which failed him multiple times through all the books, when he was no excuse. Where was it when they lobbed sonic disruptors at him?
Where was it during Cognus or Farfalla's assault? Or Johun's strike that nearly beat him? Or when Worror put a force bubble up around him? Or when Zannah was calling on Ambria's power? Or using her Sith sorcery (which Bane can't block anyways)
I'm not going to assume that Bane rolls a natural one and gets taken out by a random attack because he wasn't paying attention. Here we argue characters at their best, no their worst.
"I'll disregard all evidence that Bane can't perceive this attack for no reason, oh wait, the reason is I'm a Bane fanboy."
Stop trying to undermine Bane just to make your favourite characters look better. You want to say that Bane can't sense attacks for crap? I'll pull the same shit in every single Sidious debate from now on. If you want to actually use common sense however, we can continue.
Oh, give it a rest. You barely even know the source materials you're trying to bleat about.
How can I 'undermine' Bane like this? Plagueis is perfectly geared to take him out. That's all.
Look, I never claimed that Sidious couldn't block Traya's Giga Drain because he wouldn't sense it and even try to block it, did I? Despite the fact that Sidious' precognition has failed him before. We just don't do that in these debates.
No, Palpatine could block it as he's a master of that power and we've seen powerful Sith block being drained of life anyways by the Thought bomb.
Good for him? Relevence?
Bane can't detect workings on midichlorians. How is this hard?
Why would he need to? His Danger Sense goes off and tells him to block and he does.
No, you said that Plagueis could use the technique to maybe solo and then claimed that 'Killing [Bane] is the easiest thing ever'. I replied that nothing I'd seen suggests that it would be that easy or tha the technique was unblockable and you said that 'his opponents have no knowledge nor defense against it.' You made the claims first, so YOU start proving up.
Sure. Neither bane nor Zannah have shown they can perceive or defend against Plagueis's ability to force Midichlorians' return to the force.
Gee, that was simple.
Why would Bane's danger sense warn him? Warn him of what? How would he know to block? Against the nature of the technique? The only person who can prevent it is Palpatine. And he learned how to sense and control the Midichlorians as well
Except Plagueis isn't just talking to them, by his own words: 'I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians."Prove that that is unblockable.
I never said it's unblockable. I said Bane has no idea how to stop it.
Bane has a trilogy of books. show me from evidence contained therein that Bane can do what you're claiming. Palpatine clearly prevented Plagueis from repairing his body at the end, but that's made clear it's because he also studied how to perceive Midichlorians and knew the same abilities
What is the relevence of that exactly?That isn't how we operate. We don't just assume something isn't blockable without proof.
"Bane cna block it."
"Prove it."
God, we're going in circles
As explained already non of this matters.
Yes, some techniques cannot be blocked in regulare ways or even in no ways at all. Your job is to prove that Plagueis' midichlorian manipulation is one such way.
Yeah, it's pretty simple: Unless you train for it, or have the senses for it (like a Bith), you can't even perceive midichlorians or their manipulation
But of course Bane can't.
The Force isn't msn. It doesn't tap you on the shoulder and tell you that the guy you're fight has another lightsaber stashed and that he has an ace up his sleeve. It guides a users actions and lets them react to threats before they occur via precognition.
Well they're micro-organisms that reside inside of cells so presumably they're comprised of matter and all matter is made up of atoms.
I still don't see what exactly that proves. [/B]
Palpatine studied decades to perceive Midichlorians
Bane hasn't.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Now I'm not saying another word on the matter. Plagueis killed a fricking goon in his bed. Theres nothing suggesting this technique is unblockable, can kill swiftly or even can used in combat situations. If Plagueis actually used it on a real opponent that would be another thing. But there is zero evidence on its capabilities.
There is nothing indicating it lacks use in combat. Palpatine using a variant to block Plagueis's healing while multitasking on him.
I can't believe after how much shit I got for claiming that Trayas technique was unblockable, when that had been directly stated as being unblockable and had 3 instances of it being used on powerful opponents to back it up, that you guys try the same thing on a technique thats been used [b]once on a non-force sensitive with nothing to back up its unblockability./grouch. [/B]
Oh, boo ****ing hoo. Except your precious technique of Force Drain has been blocked in the EU already
You're applying that to magical space bugs?
This is not a place where physics can bend. There is no basis for an earnest dissent to the assertion "midichlorians are made of matter."
Originally posted by Nephthys
From what I heard Tenebrous notes in The Tenebrous Way that Plagueis has an innate gift to detect and sense midi-chlorian activity.
Yes, and that he trained as well to do it
Yes, clearly that is binding. That changes everything. Plagueis doesn't think anyone else was as awesome as he was so obviously he wins every fight. Thank god you've opened our eyes. Wait, does Sidious saying no-one can stop him now also mean that he's invincible?
Oh, do stop being silly. Plagueis is a very learned being and he isn't even that arrogant in terms of his own power, unlike Palpatine. Plagueis discusses the deeds of past Sith, and acknowledges their power very accurately. He merely thinks that if another Sith his equal or superior existed, it's not recorded. Plagueis knows of Vitiate, Kun, Nihilus, Ragnos and Bane.
The fact that despite being trained [b]incorrectly, Plagueis is such a monster with the force and saber? The fact that the back of the book calls him the most powerful Sith who ever lived? The entire Banite line being structured with Sith getting stronger over time, lord to Lord?
It's not even that Plagueis thinks he's so awesome. He clearly respects the Sith of old. Nothing indicates it's anything but an intellectual conclusion.
Semantics.No he wouldn't. Prove evidence that thats the only way to stop the technique.
Untill you actually get some evidence to support your claim, thats all I need to do.
We've seen people bypass Force shields completely, btw.
Because I can.Considering that Zannah's sorcery killed Bane, lolno.
Actually its: Can Bane hold them off for a few seconds? Answer: Yes. I'm not suggesting that Bane can take them both on at once, but he can stall them, certainly.
Together? Like hell. They'd make mincemeat out of him. It's not even close. All that has to happen is they cloud his mind and nail him with force lightning and Midichlorian shut down
Prove that Plagueis can use the technique to kill instantly.
Of course, since Palpatine has shown he cna literally shut off your brain by snapping his fingers, it'd be odd if his crown attack couldn't do anything. Palpatine has also said he can use a technique to 'kill instantly' via an exertion of his anger, and he criticizes Plagueis for 'drawing it out' rather than ending it instantly..
Its more than potential. All Jedi have precognition. I see absolutely nothing suggesting that Bane will not sense the attack.
Like he sensed Cognus.
Next.
One that they can do instantly and without spending a few months fighting the Force?
I fail to see how this is a combat ability. Though I'll note that all Force Users can blunt the perceptions of their opponents as explained in PoD. Its how they don't perfectly counter each other all the time. And that was Cognus' innate special ability and Bane was able to overcome it. Don't act as if her doing it proves a damn thing about Banes senses. [/B]
Palpatine and Plagueis blunted the perceptions of the entire Jedi Order.
Yeah, Bane's failed so many times. Palpatine only sensed Plagueis trying to manipulate Midichlorians as he was trained for it.
Plagueis's 'innate special ability' involves the midichlorians. So, Bane does what when Plagueis focuses on the orbalisks? His precognition didn't save him from electrocuting himself, btw
Originally posted by Lightsnake
There is nothing indicating it lacks use in combat. Palpatine using a variant to block Plagueis's healing while multitasking on him.
There was nothing indicating Nihilus' Giga Drain lacked use in combat but that didn't stop you from arguing the potential of charge times and rituals and intensive concentration.
Whats this about a variant?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, boo ****ing hoo. Except your precious technique of Force Drain has been blocked in the EU already
Gideon was never able to successfully prove that. Even when he tracked down the source in which it was 'blocked'.
Originally posted by CityOfHope
😐Really?
I understand and even agree with your overall point, but this was hilariously worded given the feats of Jedi and Sith throughout the mythos. haermm
Nephthys
Gideon was never able to successfully prove that. Even when he tracked down the source in which it was 'blocked'.
The evidence overwhelmingly points to the techniques as being the same, from the effects to the lore. It was a brilliant argument that didn't hinge on vague or potentially hyperbolic testimony from characters, but confined itself strictly to the relevant guides and sourcebooks.
The reasoning was sound.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Feats are by definition things that happened. Whatever the overall system, the things Jedi and Sith do fall within the operating environment of the universe, which categorically includes things like "objects are made of matter."
Like I said, I agree with your point, but you defined the Star Wars universe as a place where physics can't bend. It was funny.
Originally posted by CityOfHope
The evidence overwhelmingly points to the techniques as being the same, from the effects to the lore. It was a brilliant argument that didn't hinge on vague or potentially hyperbolic testimony from characters, but confined itself strictly to the relevant guides and sourcebooks.The reasoning was sound.
Hey.
Shut up. jk