Plagueis and Sidious vs Bane and Zannah

Originally posted by Nephthys
A conventional Force Shield perhaps?

Hell, he thinks he's invincible. And it's not even an attack. Plagueis simply instructs the midichlorians to return to the force.

I don't see why you think a specialised defence is necessary.

Please. A shield's never even shown itself able to block a force choke, that takes a different ability. Plagueis doesn't throw energy, he speaks to your midichlorians and controls them. How does a force shield block that? Does putting a shield around an animal prevent the force user from controlling it?

Bane was meditating, the Umbaran Assassins specialise in, well, assassination and Bane did sense them.

Obviously Banes Force senses are not perfect any more any Force Users are. You don't see me citing Palpatine as being taken off-gaurd by Vader as proof that Bane could snap his neck in an instant.

Because he was focused on Luke and Battle meditation for his fleet, maybe?
Bane's failed perceiving things in the heat of battle with the people he's fighting

I could list hundreds of examples of Force Users failing to detect something in the Force. That doesn't mean that they do not have those senses. We might as well argue that all Force Users will fail to detect attacks. Is that what you want us to do?

Okay. So why can Bane perceive this? I'll wait. Plagueis trained and experimented for decades.
You have to face up to one fact: There's no evidence Bane can do what you say. He has not had the specialized training to detect midichlorians.

I've seen no evidence that conventional means would be inadequate.

Probably because you're not making an argument. Show me proof conventional means will work. Show me proof Bane can use them to block it.

especially as there's no attack. Plagueis is simply telling his midichlorians to do something.

Its an attack that will directly cause Banes death, so his danger sense should pick it up.

Like it picked up Zannah's dark side tendrils (no, Bane had to DEDUCE that), Johun's slash at his wrist, Farfalla's stasis field...

There's no evidence this technique is blockable or even detectable unless you know what to look for. Can Bane feel something affecting the midichlorians of other beings?
No, there's no proof he can detect that far in. Plagueis is the only one to his point who's demonstrated that. Because it took him specialized training of decades

Using the Force on an object to cause harm to your opponent is hardly new in Star Wars, and hardly undetectable. Its really no different than Ventress throwing tree limbs at Anakin.

Oh, right. Because we've seen Force Users detect everything. Please, Force users have trouble detecting the use of Morichro and Malacia when it's used on them. Bane's great senses didn't scream at him about Kas'im's extra trick up his sleeve, about Zannah's attacks...he's failed constantly.
And you expect me to believe Bane can, with no evidence, detect and block a technique he has no knowledge of, when it's applied to something else? Plagueis only needs to kill one orbalisk.

I doubt thats entirely accurate in regards to the precision. Remember that Bane was manipulating sub-atomic particles at one point.

Never mind Bane would have to sense his manipulations in the orbalisks and himself

Plenty of writers try to make their creations 'teh most powerfullest evar'. This forum exists partially to determine whether thats accurate or not.

Except Luceno isn't Plagueis's creator, nor did he have nearly the same leeway.
All you're doing is throwing around terrible arguments and claims with zero proof "But maybe it cna be blocked"
"Prove it."
"I can't."

Okay, that was easy, wasn't it?

"Bane will sense it."
"He didn't sense far less complicated techniques and hasn't demonstrated the ability to sense midichlorians in a being to a point this intricate."
"Uhhh....but Bane rocks."

That's the sum of it.

No it doesn't. As I've explained on more than one occasion the 'Giga Drain' does not behave like a conventional drain and can be seen more as a severance between life and the Force than an actual drain in any rate.

No, the 'Giga Drian' is the same thing as Force Drain, applied in a more powerful manner.
The Thought Bomb is another example. We saw people defend against it.

And its also stated that Plagueis has little real talent for sorcery:

"From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to adeficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well." (pg. 278)

It takes real cognitive dissonance to ignore the very next sentence:

But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will
substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. (same page, fancy that)

It is directly said Plagueis's lack of affinity meant nothing in the end there. His will was more than enough.

Remember, this thread takes place on Ambria. Tentacle Rape is a option here.

Except Zannah is defenseless when using it. So why can't they kill her while using it?
Zannah had to put complete concentration for it. There is nothing preventing a well thrown saber, force lightning, midichlorian shut down, force crush, bursting her brain...
You conveniently decide to ignore how Zannah can't function or defend herself while using the tendrils, meaning Force Lightning or a saber will kill her

Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt thats entirely accurate in regards to the precision. Remember that Bane was manipulating sub-atomic particles at one point.

👆 👆

Nephthys gets it.

Oh, sub-atomic particles, which is basic knowledge for Holocron manipulation and usage

DONTBELIEVEHISLIES

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Right, a force shield...despite that fact that won't do shit against against an internal attack? It generates no energy at all, and Bane has no idea to put one on.

Hell, he thinks he's invincible. And it's not even an attack. Plagueis simply instructs the midichlorians to return to the force.

Proof that it won't do shit against an internal attack?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Please. A shield's never even shown itself able to block a force choke, that takes a different ability. Plagueis doesn't throw energy, he speaks to your midichlorians and controls them. How does a force shield block that? Does putting a shield around an animal prevent the force user from controlling it?

Has anyone ever actually tried to use a shield to block a Force Choke and failed? On the subject of controlling the animal, again, has anyone ever actually tried and failed?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right, he sensed them just before they attacked and got fried at first anyways.
And Bane was meditating. A state that should enhance his perceptions unless he's in battle meditation or something.

Not because he failed to sense them, but because he let them hit him because he thought his Orbalisks could tank the blows.

No it wouldn't. Its specifically mentioned that Bane was focusing introspectively and wasn't paying much attention to his surroundings.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Because he was focused on Luke and Battle meditation for his fleet, maybe?
Bane's failed perceiving things in the heat of battle with the people he's fighting

And Plagueis was almost killed by Malidian assassins. And then killed his ****ing sleep. ****ing Luke Skywalker has failed to percieve things in the heart of battle. Nearly all characters do. Sidious sure as shit looked surprised when Yoda punted him over his desk.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Okay. So why can Bane perceive this? I'll wait. Plagueis trained and experimented for decades.
You have to face up to one fact: There's no evidence Bane can do what you say. He has not had the specialized training to detect midichlorians.

Because he has extra-sensory perception that would conceivably allow him to do so.

I never claimed that he did. And you've failed to prove why he would need to be able to do so.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Probably because you're not making an argument. Show me proof conventional means will work. Show me proof Bane can use them to block it.

No 😐

You made the claim that the technique is unblockable, you prove that they are. Until you have something better than base speculation, I'm not willing to indulge your claims much further.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Especially as there's no [b]attack. Plagueis is simply telling his midichlorians to do something.[/b]

As I asked Gideon when he tried to make the same argument, what is the difference between 'attacking' and 'manipulating' someone and why would a Force Shield block the former but be completely ineffective against the latter?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like it picked up Zannah's dark side tendrils (no, Bane had to DEDUCE that), Johun's slash at his wrist, Farfalla's stasis field...

There's no evidence this technique is blockable or even detectable unless you know what to look for. Can Bane feel something affecting the midichlorians of other beings?
No, there's no proof he can detect that far in. Plagueis is the only one to his point who's demonstrated that. Because it took him specialized training of decades

You're the one who has no proof to his claims, not me.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, right. Because we've seen Force Users detect everything. Please, Force users have trouble detecting the use of Morichro and Malacia when it's used on them. Bane's great senses didn't scream at him about Kas'im's extra trick up his sleeve, about Zannah's attacks...he's failed constantly.

And you expect me to believe Bane can, with no evidence, detect and block a technique he has no knowledge of, when it's applied to something else? Plagueis only needs to kill one orbalisk.

If thats the way you want to play it then Bane snaps Plagueis' neck in the first microsecond as Plagueis fails to detect the attack. Because apparantly thats how we debate now. Jedi can't detect shit and can't block shit.

Danger sense only reacts to actual dangers and threats, Kas'im pulling out a second lightsaber is neither and I don't recall Bane failing to detect Zannah's attacks but then he was in incredible pain and extremely focussed on getting to her at the time.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, sub-atomic particles, which [b]is basic knowledge for Holocron manipulation and usage

When did I say that wasn't the case? In fact how is that relevent at all? You mentioned precision and I cited Banes manipulations of things far smaller than midichlorians as evidence.

Also, proof that this is the case?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Manipulation of midichlorians is a discipline so much more advanced and intricate it doesn't even compare. It's like saying someone lifted a rock with the force so they can move a starship.

Certainly more advanced but not necessarily more intricate. IIRC midichlorians are merely 'micro-organisms that reside in living cells', so I find it likely that midichlorians are above sub-atomic size. I believe Plagueis' mastery over the midichlorians was creditted to him having a special attunement to them rather than merely being much more advanced and precise than all of the other Sith who came before him, correct?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Never mind Bane would have to sense his manipulations in the orbalisks and himself

No he wouldn't. This is ridiculous logic. One does not need to perfectly replicate something in order to defend against it. I don't need to see a blast of air to hide from it behind a wall.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Luceno isn't Plagueis's creator, nor did he have nearly the same leeway.

Irrelevent. He's the writer who had the job of creating the character of Plagueis, who had hitherto been just a name.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
All you're doing is throwing around terrible arguments and claims with zero proof "But maybe it cna be blocked"
"Prove it."
"I can't."

Okay, that was easy, wasn't it?

"Bane will sense it."
"He didn't sense far less complicated techniques and hasn't demonstrated the ability to sense midichlorians in a being to a point this intricate."
"Uhhh....but Bane rocks."

That's the sum of it.

Actually its more like this:

'Plagueis can kill Bane easily with his midichlorian technique.'

'Prove that please.'

'Nope! You prove that he can't!'

'Thats what we call the fallacy Argument from Ignorance. You're assuming that because no defence against the technique is mentioned that none exists. Even though theres absolutely no supporting evidence of that whatsoever.'

'No U!'

Thats how I would summerise it. Mines more accurate because in actuality you did make the first claim and then failed to prove any supporting evidence for said claim when I asked you for it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, the 'Giga Drian' is the same thing as Force Drain, applied in a more powerful manner.
The Thought Bomb is another example. We saw people defend against it.

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."

This is fairly irrelevent to the discussion at hand so I'm not willing to go into more detail than this. If you still want to talk about this please create another thread where this topic is less out of place.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It takes real cognitive dissonance to ignore the very next sentence:
[b]
But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will
substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. (same page, fancy that)

It is directly said Plagueis's lack of affinity meant nothing in the end there. His will was more than enough. [/b]

Your mockery is misplaced in light of the fact that I don't possess the novel myself and I'm merely going off of second-hand sources.

And fair enough. Though I severly doubt that his mastery would approach Zannah's, who actually does have an affinity for it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Zannah is defenseless when using it. So why can't they kill her while using it?
Zannah had to put complete concentration for it. There is nothing preventing a well thrown saber, force lightning, midichlorian shut down, force crush, bursting her brain...
You conveniently decide to ignore how Zannah can't function or defend herself while using the tendrils, meaning Force Lightning or a saber will kill her

I imagine the fact that Zannah is not alone in this fight will come into play. I know its a common assumption on this forum that combatants will 'pair up', but co-operation is hardly inconceivable. Bane can adequately defend her from ranged attack enough to allow the tentacles to do their work.

Lol. I wouldn't keep posting unless you want to be drawn into an incoherent, neverending debate.

I've had lots of practise with LeGeND.

Yea but legend stops at a certain point..

So this is why Neph so staunchly opposes midi-chlorian manipulation.

Chronolgically I opposed it before Lightsnake bumped the thread actually.

I'm aware, but your resistance has doubled.
Are you suggesting, by the way, that Bane's sub-atomic perceptions would enable him to perceive midi-chlorians and/or Plagueis's communication with them?

No.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Proof that it won't do shit against an internal attack?

A force shield is a creation of energy with the force that blocks an actual attack incoming at you that is physical.
You're making a grave error believing Plagueis is even using a conventional attack, too. He's not. He's speaking to Bane's midichlorians. A force shield won't stop that, why would it?

Has anyone ever actually tried to use a shield to block a Force Choke and failed? On the subject of controlling the animal, again, has anyone ever actually tried and failed?

Nobody has ever tried and failed, no. Luke, however, states that the way to block it is countering the telekinesis with his own when Sedriss and Goir used it on Kam Solusar in Dark Empire 2 Luke, btw, had used a force shield to block blasts from an AT AT blast.

Not because he failed to sense them, but because he let them hit him because he thought his Orbalisks could tank the blows.

No it wouldn't. Its specifically mentioned that Bane was focusing introspectively and wasn't paying much attention to his surroundings.

Very well, admitted.

And Plagueis was almost killed by Malidian assassins.

Yeah, how many at once again? He was fighting an army of powerful opponents there. As I recall...how many Doan assassins nearly took out Bane? With the Huntress?

And then killed his ****ing sleep.

By Palpatine? Plagueis credits Palpatine with the greatest skill in subterfuge and masking himself than any other Sith ever

****ing Luke Skywalker has failed to percieve things in the heart of battle.

And? He's got a much better track record than Bane.

Nearly all characters do. Sidious sure as shit looked surprised when Yoda punted him over his desk.

Palpatine underestimated Yoda. He realized how wrong he was to do so early.

Now, there's a reason your argument here is incorrect: You're relying on several false premises. Bane has shown nothing to indicate he can perceive midichlorians, or their being affected with the Force. True or false? He has not shown the control over things like midichlorians, true or false?

Because he has extra-sensory perception that would conceivably allow him to do so.[/Quote]

No. Bane has failed to perceive things at a far, far larger scale. You say he can manipulate things at a sub-atomic level? Okay, so can any force user who makes a Holocron.

And you should acknowledge this while we're at it: Plagueis trained decades to master the sensory abilities necessary to perceive and manipulate Midichlorians. In fact, Tenebrous says:
"To detect this infinitesimal percentage would require the precision of a Bith." Plagueis had to train it himself with his own technique.

I never claimed that he did. And you've failed to prove why he would need to be able to do so.

To perceive the effects on his midichlorians, perhaps?

No 😐

You made the claim that the technique is unblockable, you prove that they are. Until you have something better than base speculation, I'm not willing to indulge your claims much further.

Hey, maybe you should check a bit: YOU claimed at first Bane could block it.
Start proving up, thanks.

As I asked Gideon when he tried to make the same argument, what is the difference between 'attacking' and 'manipulating' someone and why would a Force Shield block the former but be completely ineffective against the latter?

Because, maybe you simply don't get this, it's not a physical attack. It's not a rush of energy. It's telepathy to his midichlorians. It's ordering them.

Pushing you off a cliff is a physical assault. Talking you into jumping off is not

You're the one who has no proof to his claims, not me.

In The Tenebrous Way, when Plagueis's examination of Tenebrous ended, Plagueis couldn't send Tenebrous midichlorians moving into his body.

Inform me: Where is your proof Bane can detect it? Or that it's blockable?

If thats the way you want to play it then Bane snaps Plagueis' neck in the first microsecond as Plagueis fails to detect the attack. Because apparantly thats how we debate now. Jedi can't detect shit and can't block shit.

I am using the point that Plagueis can use a method to kill:
That is beyond Bane's sensory perception
That has no demonstrated method of being stopped
That Bane has not shown he can block this directed at other beings.

Furthermore, damaging your point is Zannah was capable of using a Sith spell on Bane regardless of any force shields he brought up.

Plagueis certainly can deflect attacks, as he's demonstrated the pre requisites to do so.

Danger sense only reacts to actual dangers and threats, Kas'im pulling out a second lightsaber is neither and I don't recall Bane failing to detect Zannah's attacks but then he was in incredible pain and extremely focussed on getting to her at the time.

Right, in incredible pain when he had the upper hand? And you'd think the force might warn him Kas'im wasn't done when he was gloating.

When did I say that wasn't the case? In fact how is that relevent at all? You mentioned precision and I cited Banes manipulations of things far smaller than midichlorians as evidence.

Inform me: What ever said midichlorians are larger than atoms?

I've also provided evidence from The Tenebrous way that Plagueis trained decades to study midichlorians specifically.

Also, proof that this is the case?

Oh, and here's a quote:
Each holocron matrix had to meet stringent specifications, usually requiring thousands of precise alterations and adjustments on a subatomic level. Only through the power of the Force could one ensure that each crystalline strand was properly aligned.

Certainly more advanced but not necessarily more intricate. IIRC midichlorians are merely 'micro-organisms that reside in living cells', so I find it likely that midichlorians are above sub-atomic size.

Oh, so you have no proof and only your suspicions?

I believe Plagueis' mastery over the midichlorians was creditted to him having a special attunement to them rather than merely being much more advanced and precise than all of the other Sith who came before him, correct?

No, you're incorrect. Plagueis trained for decades for them.
And it's said Plagueis has no record of a Sith of even equal power to him previously.

No he wouldn't. This is ridiculous logic. One does not need to perfectly replicate something in order to defend against it. I don't need to see a blast of air to hide from it behind a wall.

Irrelevent. He's the writer who had the job of creating the character of Plagueis, who had hitherto been just a name.

Except a good deal of Plagueis had been revealed prior. This isn't Karpyshyn where he was givne carte blanche on Bane.

Actually its more like this:

'Plagueis can kill Bane easily with his midichlorian technique.'

'Prove that please.'

'Nope! You prove that he can't!'

'Thats what we call the fallacy Argument from Ignorance. You're assuming that because no defence against the technique is mentioned that none exists. Even though theres absolutely no supporting evidence of that whatsoever.'

Actually, the argument goes asuch:
I make the claim Plagueis can kill Bane easily because of his midi technique
You ask why
I say it's because Plagueis has demonstrated he can shut down the midichlorians of either Bane or his midichlorians. Your recourse has been to claim Bane can block it or defend. I am challenging this and saying it has no proof.

Thats how I would summerise it. Mines more accurate because in actuality you did make the first claim and then failed to prove any supporting evidence for said claim when I asked you for it. [/B]

No, you're being foolish enough to claim Bane can block it off and you're saying "but nothing says there's no defense!" The force will just warn Bane he's in danger, even though he hasn't shown he can do anything against it. You've laughably relied on a force shield as a defense to Plagueis chatting with his midichlorians

Your mockery is misplaced in light of the fact that I don't possess the novel myself and I'm merely going off of second-hand sources.

So why are you debating?

And fair enough. Though I severly doubt that his mastery would approach Zannah's, who actually does have an affinity for it.

Bnae had no mastery, and he could manage against it.

I imagine the fact that Zannah is not alone in this fight will come into play. I know its a common assumption on this forum that combatants will 'pair up', but co-operation is hardly inconceivable. Bane can adequately defend her from ranged attack enough to allow the tentacles to do their work.

Here's how the fight goes:

Zannah tries this, Plagueis simply initiates his midichlorian shut down on both opponents. He uses it on Bane's orbalisks, killing them instantly.

As it is a stated fact from the Tenebrous way that Plagueis only achieved these perception abilities through decades of study and it is an original technique that induces death, the only thing you have is the potential for Bane to [b]possibly[/]b sense it

Oh, wait, except Bane won't be able to because the presence of Palpatine and Plagueis will be clouding the force and their intentions, because that's another ability they have.

And since he can't sense their intentions with them shrouded by the Dark Side (Oh, and last I checked: Cognus, before any formal training, one upped him because she clouded herself from him as well. On nothing but instinct.) Palpatine was capable of masking his intentions to Plagueis, as well as even the mightiest Jedi in history to that point. Plagueis could do the same thing, why would he be able to perceive and stop this?

Even if he can, by the time they've initiated it, what can he do against it? He lacks the perception abilities to understand what's happening. Nothing shows he'll be alert to something happening to his midichlorians or the midichlorians of his ORBALISKS.

One dies. One. and he's done for. Plagueis can handle him while Palpatine absolutely butchers Zannah

And do shut up, DS

It's tough to shut up with so much rationalizing and reaching.

I love how I'm the one using a technique Plagueis has actually shown while Neph is twisting himself in knots trying to prove Bane can perceive midichlorian manipulation and stop it and I'm the one who's reaching.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I love how I'm the one using a technique Plagueis has actually shown while Neph is twisting himself in knots trying to prove Bane can perceive midichlorian manipulation and stop it and I'm the one who's reaching.

He used it on a non-force sensitive and he didn't even kill him right away with it and yet you're claiming that he can kill Bane instantly and without any hope of a defence. Hell yeah I call bullshit.

How about you actually post the quote of him using it? Then we can actually get somewhere.

He drew Veruna's death out intentionally. and if not Veruna, what prevents the orbalisk from dying straight off? It would, no matter what, remove Bane's strength, mobility and technique as well quite quickly.Imagine Plagueis doing then and then Palpatine cooking him with lightning.

All Plagueis needs is to kill a single orbalisk and that's it as well

So because he doesn't kill someone quickly that proves that he can kill someone quickly? Haha, no. Prove how quickly Plagueis can fatally manipulate the midichlorians.

I'm waiting for you to provide quotes of Plagueis using the technique.

He uses the technique to kill once and, as I explained to you elsewhere, the only description the text provides for it is Plagueis's own words.