Can Thor Respond To A Speedblitz?

Started by -Pr-39 pages

Originally posted by I play triangle
Haha, I think it's pretty obvious when you use a character in a plot you are intending to use the named character. If it had been Gladiator Prime after spending 10 months in the hyperbolic time chamber, the intention would obviously have been not to use standard Gladiator.

If the timeline has diverged and the character changed drastically they are usually given a different look and name, e.g. Maestro!

Yes, but it's still a Gladiator from the future. Do we start allowing future versions of other characters too?

Originally posted by biensalsa
But, this is not to prove Glads can achieve that speed, which it has never been my intention.

It was to show Thor dealing with extreme speeds, wouldn't that translate into people proving him dealing with something similar instead of me trying to find a canon comic of Glads at those speeds?

You're trying to use it to prove Thor is fast?

Originally posted by abhilegend
What double standards? Thor in his entire publication history has struggled with street level speed while superman hasn't. Add to that it isn't a superman/thor comparison thread and its clear that ODG is just butthurt that why don't we go by superman's lowest feats while discussing thor's average speed feats. Should I use thor getting koed by his own lightning or by a mast from now on in every thread which is about superman's durability?

So you're going to bash and incite in a post and then expect me to agree with you?

And no, Thor does have feats. Not as many as say, Superman, but still feats.

Originally posted by carver9
Youll have to show someone fighting at those speeds though which would be next to impossible (minus Flash).

Don't ask questions you've had answered before.

Originally posted by -Pr-

You're trying to use it to prove Thor is fast?

.

Not really, I'm using this as an example of Thor not being capable to counter those speeds, even in this issue, he had external speed help and a speedster using insane speeds was able to bull rush him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yes, but it's still a Gladiator from the future. Do we start allowing future versions of other characters too?

You're trying to use it to prove Thor is fast?

So you're going to bash and incite in a post and then expect me to agree with you?

And no, Thor does have feats. Not as many as say, Superman, but still feats.

Don't ask questions you've had answered before.


I'm not bashing at all. Its his MO. Why bring up low feats for the characters that have no relevance to the thread? He did it in every doomsday thread, every thor thread regarding his speed etc. Yeah, he has about half dozen pure speed feats in his nearly 50 years history, still his average is struggling with street level speed.

he has less, and the quality of them is less as well.

Even a high end microsecond level speed thor, is vastly slower than even Byrne era Superman.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I believe Thor can react to speedsters like Mongoose, but I doubt He can react to the type of speeds Gladiator can dish out IF Gladiator is moving at a peak or taxing speed for him.

And this is the example I mentioned yesterday PR.

Thor and his group are using time dilatation to move around

While returning from an interstellar travel Gladiator catches a glimpse of shadows moving at Super speed.

Gladiator bull rushes Thor who is on time dilatation, Gladiator has to be moving at extreme speeds in order for him to be able to see Thor and his group. So basically here Gladiator had the handicap and still managed to bull rush Thor who has the advantage of time dilatation.

Here is the confirmation that Gladiator was moving at Hyper Speeds all that time.

This is why I do not believe Thor can handle a speed blitz delivered at that level of speed, with out external help

BTW, This is not canon for Gladiator anymore as this became a possible future and probably is another universe in the MU, But this is 616 Thor

Masterson Thor bullrushes 616 Gladiator:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator1.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator2.jpg

Thor assaults Gladiator:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator10.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator11.jpg

That comic was definitely a great showing of super speed for Gladiator but I'm not sure why you think blindsiding an opponent proves anything conclusively in terms of reflexes.

Masterson Thor is able to immediately react to a speed charge from behind:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator4.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator5.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator6.jpg

During their last fight Thor is able to turn around and blast a bullrushing Gladiator:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator7-1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator7.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator8.jpg

He also reacts to a bullrush from Hyperion (On par with Gladiator speed wise IIRC):
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsHyperion5.jpg

There's also some of his fights with Surfer where he's illustrated impressive speed.

Pretty much the only time Gladiator's speed gave him an overwhelming advantage was here:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator4.jpg

But there were circumstances there (Holding back, mortal endanger etc.) and we even saw Thor knock debris away in the time it took Gladiator to reach him indicating that he's capable of reacting to that speed.

I think Gladiator having superior true super speed is non-debatable but Thor can prove to be incredibly fast.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Not really, I'm using this as an example of Thor not being capable to counter those speeds, even in this issue, he had external speed help and a speedster using insane speeds was able to bull rush him.

True and why should future versions immediatly be disregarded on the assumption they have a different powerset; more so than, they should be regarded on the more likely assumption; that the writer probably intends them not to have a different powerset, unless otherwise stated.

Originally posted by I play triangle
True and why should future versions immediatly be disregarded on the assumption they have a different powerset; more so than, they should be regarded on the more likely assumption; that the writer probably intends them not to have a different powerset, unless otherwise stated.

Maybe because in MU every potential future version of a character is a different character?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Maybe because in MU every potential future version of a character is a different character?
Not really, the character remains the same unless the choice which led to the divergent future was the character themselves, even then it does not change their power set automatically, an event would have to take place in that future to do that. They are not a different character, they are a different potential future for the original character. It's not semantics. The character unless otherwise stated is still the same.

Is this even about Thor anymore?

Originally posted by I play triangle
Not really, the character remains the same unless the choice which led to the divergent future was the character themselves, even then it does not change their power set automatically, an event would have to take place in that future to do that. They are not a different character, they are a different potential future for the original character. It's not semantics. The character unless otherwise stated is still the same.

No, they are essentialy different characters. That's why there are so many different futures. Don't blame me, marvel has made that abundantely clear since their first alternate future story DOFP.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, they are essentialy different characters. That's why there are so many different futures. Don't blame me, marvel has made that abundantely clear since their first alternate future story DOFP.

No, Marvel has made it clear they are divergent versions. Which they are... E.g. Maestro who even says, "you're me" to the Hulk, paraphrased and has it explained how he was amped, or Wolvie from the Future in days of Future past etc.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Masterson Thor bullrushes 616 Gladiator:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator1.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator2.jpg

Thor assaults Gladiator:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator10.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator11.jpg

That comic was definitely a great showing of super speed for Gladiator but I'm not sure why you think blindsiding an opponent proves anything conclusively in terms of reflexes.

Is not that I do not believe Thor is fast or that he has enhanced or Super reflexes, after all it has been stated that he moves swiftly like the wind or the lightning He commands

What I doubt, is that He can take on Gladiator while Gladiator is using his speed at peak or close to it.

Case in point, The Fantastic Four comic book in which Gladiator having the handicap of time dilatation (relatively frozen in time) is able to bull rush Thor (who knows someone is coming), because Gladiator is using Hyper speed and He engages Thor in a brief fight.

I picture the same brief fight with Thor lacking the advantage of the time dilatation and Gladiator moving at hyper speed and is really hard to rationalize Thor dealing with Glads Hyper speed if there is no time dilatation.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Masterson Thor is able to immediately react to a speed charge from behind:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator4.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator5.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator6.jpg

During their last fight Thor is able to turn around and blast a bullrushing Gladiator:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator7-1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator7.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator8.jpg

He also reacts to a bullrush from Hyperion (On par with Gladiator speed wise IIRC):
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsHyperion5.jpg

There's also some of his fights with Surfer where he's illustrated impressive speed.

Pretty much the only time Gladiator's speed gave him an overwhelming advantage was here:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator4.jpg

But there were circumstances there (Holding back, mortal endanger etc.) and we even saw Thor knock debris away in the time it took Gladiator to reach him indicating that he's capable of reacting to that speed.

I think Gladiator having superior true super speed is non-debatable but Thor can prove to be incredibly fast.

I have seen and read all this comics and I doubt in any of those fights Glads is performing combat FLT. He is moving fast, but not in Hyper Speed mode.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not bashing at all. Its his MO. Why bring up low feats for the characters that have no relevance to the thread? He did it in every doomsday thread, every thor thread regarding his speed etc.

This is done in response to you using Thor's lowest feats to try and prove he can't contend with speedsters. If your going to resort to lowballing then we will too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, he has about half dozen pure speed feats in his nearly 50 years history, still his average is struggling with street level speed.

And he's always been shown to be able to contend with speedsters. Never once has a speedster shown he can take Thor due to his speed advantage alone.

And he's not just fought any old speedster. He's fought heavyweight ones like Gladiator and Silver Surfer.

Fact is Gladiator and Superman don't go around speed blitzing every opponent they fight either.

But the way you debate is you want to take their higher end blitz showings and pit them against Thor's lower speed showings.

And that's why me and others get annoyed at this biased method of debating.

Originally posted by biensalsa

I have seen and read all this comics and I doubt in any of those fights Glads is performing combat FLT. He is moving fast, but not in Hyper Speed mode.

You doubting the extent of their speed is not canon proof.

And Even IF they're not using FTL combat speed, Thor wasn't teleprting, wasn't using Omni-Directional Lightning blasts, wasn't Sending A thousand thousand hurricanes in Omni-Directional waves.

Again your another one who would like to pit Supes or Glads higher end Speed showings and put them against Thor's lowest performances.

Fact is a heavy weight speedster has never shown to be able to Stomp Thor as a result of his superior speed.

When you find an example of that happening then you'll have an argument.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Masterson Thor bullrushes 616 Gladiator:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator1.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator2.jpg

Thor assaults Gladiator:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator10.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator11.jpg

That comic was definitely a great showing of super speed for Gladiator but I'm not sure why you think blindsiding an opponent proves anything conclusively in terms of reflexes.

Masterson Thor is able to immediately react to a speed charge from behind:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator4.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator5.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator6.jpg

During their last fight Thor is able to turn around and blast a bullrushing Gladiator:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator7-1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator7.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator8.jpg

He also reacts to a bullrush from Hyperion (On par with Gladiator speed wise IIRC):
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsHyperion5.jpg

There's also some of his fights with Surfer where he's illustrated impressive speed.

Pretty much the only time Gladiator's speed gave him an overwhelming advantage was here:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator4.jpg

But there were circumstances there (Holding back, mortal endanger etc.) and we even saw Thor knock debris away in the time it took Gladiator to reach him indicating that he's capable of reacting to that speed.

I think Gladiator having superior true super speed is non-debatable but Thor can prove to be incredibly fast.

Hate to say this but I'm not sure if any of those show he can deal with a speedblitz. What I mean is in three of those examples Thor has already been hit he reacts to the speedblitz after it happens.

Also it just seems to be this thing where bricks can deal with objects moving at 1000s of mph if they are big. I've seen Thing deal with a bullrush from Black Bolt and Thing doesn't have superhuman speed. In general bricks seem to be able to deal with missles.

Originally posted by Deadline
Hate to say this but I'm not sure if any of those show he can deal with a speedblitz. What I mean is in three of those examples Thor has already been hit he reacts to the speedblitz after it happens.

Also it just seems to be this thing where bricks can deal with objects moving at 1000s of mph if they are big. I've seen Thing deal with a bullrush from Black Bolt and Thing doesn't have superhuman speed. In general bricks seem to be able to deal with missles.

And yet we've seen Thing not being able to contend with Quicksilver at all.

Thing was also not able to land a hit on Gladiator.

So if I wanted to prove Thing can not contend with a speedster it would be an easy thing to prove.

Whilst no one can provide such proof with Thor.

He's been up against Speedster using their speed on several occasions, and not only contends, but usually wins the fight on top.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But the way you debate is you want to take their higher end blitz showings and pit them against Thor's lower speed showings.

And that's why me and others get annoyed at this biased method of debating.

Has anyone actually posted any higher end blitz showings in the first place? Watching someone speed-eat pie at unspecific speeds doesn't strike me as a particularly useful metric to be testing response times to speedblitzing.

And if that sounds arbitrary, well sounds like the same arbitrary being offered for Thor's fights with high heralds at unspecific speeds. At least Thor's actually fighting.

That these conversations always circle around Thor's reflex feats (or the alleged absence thereof), but never actually start with examples of actual offensive speedblitzing is glaring. It's also an utterly myopic discussion.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet we've seen Thing not being able to contend with Quicksilver at all.

Thing was also not able to land a hit on Gladiator.

So if I wanted to prove Thing can not contend with a speedster it would be an easy thing to prove.

Whilst no one can provide such proof with Thor.

He's been up against Speedster using their speed on several occasions, and not only contends, but usually wins the fight on top.

Thor has other feats that prove he can deal with a speedblitz just not these ones.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Has anyone actually posted any higher end blitz showings in the first place? Watching someone speed-eat pie at unspecific speeds doesn't strike me as a particularly useful metric to be testing response times to speedblitzing.

And if that sounds arbitrary, well sounds like the same arbitrary being offered for Thor's fights with high heralds at unspecific speeds. At least Thor's actually fighting.

That these conversations always circle around Thor's reflex feats (or the alleged absence thereof), but never actually start with examples of actual offensive speedblitzing is glaring. It's also an utterly myopic discussion.

This...

Can anyone post examples of a combat scene where Thor will not be able to tag his opponent...something like the Runner and Thanos fight. What combat fts are people using to suggest Thor would not be able to tag his opponents because realistically, I have seen anything yet proving a case.

Originally posted by Deadline
Thor has other feats that prove he can deal with a speedblitz just not these ones.
Yes, but the natural knee-jerk response is... "Well that feat of Thor's isn't actually responding to a real speedblitz like we're thinking about!!! Because we can't be sure he's operating at the specific superspeed that we're thinking about!!!"

Which of course should beg the following questions: "Well what exactly is the type of real speedblitz you were thinking about? And how exactly are you so sure that this real speedblitz is operating at the specific superspeed you're thinking about (whatever that's supposed to be)? And how exactly do examples of watching someone speed-eat pie suffice as evidence of either?"

Has anybody of the high herald class (within Marvel) ever done a speedblitz like the one Surfer pulled on Nova?

It seems to me Marvel keeps that stuff from happening in their stories. Even when it becomes glaring by its absence (for example whenever Surfer faces off against a stupendously ponderous opponent).