Originally posted by janus77
Has anybody of the high herald class (within Marvel) ever done a speedblitz like the one Surfer pulled on Nova?It seems to me Marvel keeps that stuff from happening in their stories. Even when it becomes glaring by its absence (for example whenever Surfer faces off against a stupendously ponderous opponent).
Yea that is what I gathered from marvel. They just typically don't depict anyone other than straight speedsters blitzing
Originally posted by carver9
This...Can anyone post examples of a combat scene where Thor will not be able to tag his opponent...something like the Runner and Thanos fight. What combat fts are people using to suggest Thor would not be able to tag his opponents because realistically, I have seen anything yet proving a case.
Not saying Thor can or cannot evade a blitz, and of course, you guys will probably argue about this being PIS or whatever, but you just wanted an example, so....all credit of course goes to OneDumb.
Yes, Thor may have been holding back, but like he said, Wolverine is evading his 'finest blows'.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I made a point before about low showings/PIS. Posters may argue that's apologist nonsense when it comes to Thor... but whatever it may be, let's not pretend that other characters (even the ones being pitted against Thor) don't possess low showings/PIS as bad, or even worse -- at least Thor actually grabbed and hit Wolverine and defeated him. People should keep this in perspective. And that's only fair.
Not sayingThorSuperman can or cannot evade a blitz, and of course, you guys will probably argue about this being PIS or whatever, but you just wanted an example, so....all credit of course goes toOneDumb...OneDumb.Yes,
ThorSuperman may have been holding back, but like he said,Wolverine is evading his 'finest blows'.Superman's 'not used to fighting someone faster' than he is.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I made a point before about low showings/PIS. Posters may argue that's apologist nonsense when it comes to Thor... but whatever it may be, let's not pretend that other characters (even the ones being pitted against Thor) don't possess low showings/PIS as bad, [b]or even worse -- at least Thor actually grabbed and hit Wolverine and defeated him. People should keep this in perspective. And that's only fair. [/B]
Oh yes, you're absolutely 100% correct. Carver just wanted an example, I found one, and posted it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERYou doubting the extent of their speed is not canon proof.
And Even IF they're not using FTL combat speed, Thor wasn't teleprting, wasn't using Omni-Directional Lightning blasts, wasn't Sending A thousand thousand hurricanes in Omni-Directional waves.
Again your another one who would like to pit Supes or Glads higher end Speed showings and put them against Thor's lowest performances.
Fact is a heavy weight speedster has never shown to be able to Stomp Thor as a result of his superior speed.
When you find an example of that happening then you'll have an argument.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Is not that I do not believe Thor is fast or that he has enhanced or Super reflexes, after all it has been stated that he moves swiftly like the wind or the lightning He commandsWhat I doubt, is that He can take on Gladiator while Gladiator is using his speed at peak or close to it.
Case in point, The Fantastic Four comic book in which Gladiator having the handicap of time dilatation (relatively frozen in time) is able to bull rush Thor (who knows someone is coming), because Gladiator is using Hyper speed and He engages Thor in a brief fight.
I picture the same brief fight with Thor lacking the advantage of the time dilatation and Gladiator moving at hyper speed and is really hard to rationalize Thor dealing with Glads Hyper speed if there is no time dilatation.
I have seen and read all this comics and I doubt in any of those fights Glads is performing combat FLT. He is moving fast, but not in Hyper Speed mode.
Again picture Thor WITH OUT the time dilatation help from Reed Richards and picture Gladiator dishing hyper speed. Remember the time dilatation help from Richards makes everything relatively frozen in time. And yet Gladiator with handicap bull rushed Thor who knew someone was coming to attack.
If Gladiator is moving at Hyper Speed and Thor is not, then Thor is the one who will be relatively frozen in time, which will allow for Glads to dish how many punches? Even if you move as fast as lighting vs those speeds you are effectively frozen in time.
If you are frozen in time how can You defend? How can You attack?
Edit: I know about Thor swinging the mallet twice the speed of light before someone brings that up.
Thor cannot respond to a speed blitz (i.e from someone with Superman's speed) based on logic and reason - this is the first and biggest hurdle. This point is consistently ignored, likely because it is indisputable.
Instead the only arguments I am seeing are over interpretations of feats and showings, which are moot given the above.
Originally posted by PlacidityAs perfect an example of 'assuming your conclusion' as there possibly can be.
Thor cannot respond to a speed blitz (i.e from someone with Superman's speed) based on logic and reason - this is the first and biggest hurdle.The only arguments I am seeing are over interpretations of feats and showings, which are moot given the above.
You have earned my applause. 👆
Originally posted by biensalsa
Again picture Thor WITH OUT the time dilatation help from Reed Richards and picture Gladiator dishing hyper speed. Remember the time dilatation help from Richards makes everything relatively frozen in time. And yet Gladiator with handicap bull rushed Thor who knew someone was coming to attack.If Gladiator is moving at Hyper Speed and Thor is not, then Thor is the one who will be relatively frozen in time, which will allow for Glads to dish how many punches? Even if you move as fast as lighting vs those speeds you are effectively frozen in time.
If you are frozen in time how can You defend? How can You attack?
Edit: I know about Thor swinging the mallet twice the speed of light before someone brings that up.
Again you want me to imagine scenarios. Picture the way you see things, If this happened and that didn't.
Fact is Gladiator has attacked Masterson Thor using superspeed, and Masterson Thor was able to react and combat him.
Fact is another future Glads who also had superspeed used all his powers to try and kill Thor and yet failed.
Fact is Thor has reacted to and fought other speedsters (who did use superspeed against him) like Silver Surfer and Hyperion.
So Thor has the power set and speed to deal with heavyweight speedsters apart from in the imaginary scenarios your trying to offer as some kind of proof to the contrary.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again you want me to imagine scenarios. Picture the way you see things, If this happened and that didn't.Fact is Gladiator has attacked Masterson Thor using superspeed, and Masterson Thor was able to react and combat him.
Fact is another future Glads who also had superspeed used all his powers to try and kill Thor and yet failed.
Fact is Thor has reacted to and fought other speedsters (who did use superspeed against him) like Silver Surfer and Hyperion.
So Thor has the power set and speed to deal with heavyweight speedsters apart from in the imaginary scenarios your trying to offer as some kind of proof to the contrary.
So
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again you want me to imagine scenarios. Picture the way you see things, If this happened and that didn't.Fact is Gladiator has attacked Masterson Thor using superspeed, and Masterson Thor was able to react and combat him.
Fact is another future Glads who also had superspeed used all his powers to try and kill Thor and yet failed.
Fact is Thor has reacted to and fought other speedsters (who did use superspeed against him) like Silver Surfer and Hyperion.
So Thor has the power set and speed to deal with heavyweight speedsters apart from in the imaginary scenarios your trying to offer as some kind of proof to the contrary.
So, You really think- that Thor could respond to gladiator, even if gladiator is moving at hyper speed? Just because he has dealt with a gladiator other times not moving at those speeds?
Well then I guess Hulk has ftl reflexes as he has dealt with gladiator too.
Let me get rid of all the tiers from now on anyone who faces a speedster has flt reflexes.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So now masterson thor is used as thor? You know that the same masterson got blitzed by spiderman?
Your right Masterson Thor is not equal to Thor. He's actually less than Thor. So if Masterson can stand up to Gladiator, then of course Thor can who is superior to Masterson in every way (except in architecture skills).
Originally posted by abhilegend
What imaginary instances? Gladiator was faster than thor with a huge amp in speed, thor was outmatched against gladiator when he actually used his speed. What's so hard to understand?
Oh ok so we're resorting to outright LIES NOW!
Show me now when Thor was outmatched by Gladiator!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your right Masterson Thor is not equal to Thor. He's actually less than Thor. So if Masterson can stand up to Gladiator, then of course Thor can who is superior to Masterson in every way (except in architecture skills).
Lies. He's also better at beard growth. I can prove it with scans (not including King Thor)
Originally posted by biensalsaSo, You really think- that Thor could respond to gladiator, even if gladiator is moving at hyper speed? Just because he has dealt with a gladiator other times not moving at those speeds?
Since when did this thread become specifically about people fghting at Hyper Speed?
Glads has always used his speed to attack Thor, and Thor has always beaten him.
So you've got no point.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Well then I guess Hulk has ftl reflexes as he has dealt with gladiator too.Let me get rid of all the tiers from now on anyone who faces a speedster has flt reflexes.
Thor has been stated on panel to have at least Micro-Second reflexes. Where has Hulk been stated as such?
Thor (with the aid of Mjolnir) can move and fly at Faster than Light speeds. Thor has Omni-Directional attacks. Thor can teleport.
So I really don't see how Hulk(who has none of the above) is a relevant example here.
I suggest you take OneDumbGo's advice and start by showing us speedsters who actually combat at FTL speeds. Alternate future Gladiator doesn't count.
From there we can take the argument as to how Thor differs to Hulk when taking on such opponents.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusLooks like from behind. But that doesn't show speed capable of stopping a high level speedblitz. Many speedsters, even spider-man, has been hit by slower things before.
Masterson Thor bullrushes 616 Gladiator:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator1.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator2.jpg
Again, no dice. Everyone in comics has been hit by slower moving things. It doesn't automatically grant you superspeed anywhere near their level.
Thor assaults Gladiator:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator10.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator11.jpg
That's after he got hit. Too late to respond then.That comic was definitely a great showing of super speed for Gladiator but I'm not sure why you think blindsiding an opponent proves anything conclusively in terms of reflexes.
Masterson Thor is able to immediately react to a speed charge from behind:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator4.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator5.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsGladiator6.jpg
Again too late. He already is being pushed.
During their last fight Thor is able to turn around and blast a bullrushing Gladiator:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator7-1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator7.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator8.jpg
Too late he got hit.
He also reacts to a bullrush from Hyperion (On par with Gladiator speed wise IIRC):
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsHyperion5.jpg
Not really, Surfer mostly fights horrible against Thor. Thor does have superspeed and reflexes (not debatable) but not enough to respond to a high level speedblitz (which is what this thread is about). [quote][b]
There's also some of his fights with Surfer where he's illustrated impressive speed.
Originally posted by h1a8
The most stubborn debating point here is:Thor can keep up with a speedblitz because he has fought beings WHO ARE CAPABLE of fighting at very fast speeds.
This is a clear fallacy (Onedumbg0, Quanchi, etc.). The reason is simple. Thor never reacted to any speedster from up close when he/she were actually using ftl speeds. Rather, he reacted when they weren't using such speeds. Writers don't always have characters use their highest speed in comics, or speed in general. To act as if they do is asinine. Even PR would tell you that Superman don't always uses his speed when fighting. So if someone reacts to him when he's not using his speed doesn't automatically grant them the ability to respond to a speedblitz.
This fallacy creates a dangerous pandora's box. It allows ANY character to have the ability of responding to a speedblitz provided they hang with or respond to a character capable of speedblitzing. The consequences then become silly. Batman, Grundy, Hulk, etc. would instantly gain light speed to be able to deal with a ftl speed blitz just because they responded to a speedster when the speedster wasn't using full ftl speed, or any speed.
The only way to prove Thor can respond to a speedblitz is to show him well... responding to a speedblitz. An alternative, would to show Thor moving his limbs (primarily his legs and feet) and performing complex actions in the nanosecond range. Otherwise, Thor wouldn't be able to stop a speedblitz from all angles (from behind most importantly) and he wouldn't be ablet to stop one if it had initiated from 5-10ft in front of him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I made a point before about low showings/PIS. Posters may argue that's apologist nonsense when it comes to Thor... but whatever it may be, let's not pretend that other characters (even the ones being pitted against Thor) don't possess low showings/PIS as bad, [b]or even worse -- at least Thor actually grabbed and hit Wolverine and defeated him. People should keep this in perspective. And that's only fair. [/B]
Also, I fail to see the point of posting Superman scans in a Thor speed thread...least mine was in response to a request!
Why is it PIS/low showing for Wolverine to keep pace with Thor in reflexes exactly?
It's not like Thor's own reflex feats are beyond what Wolverine has done.
If someone wants to argue Thor blocking a psi-bolt as some lightspeed attack reflex, one also has to remember that cyclops' optic blasts, have been stated to be lightspeed at least once as well. I guess Cap and Logan are lightspeed in reflexes too. 😐
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Why is it PIS/low showing for Wolverine to keep pace with Thor in reflexes exactly?It's not like Thor's own reflex feats are beyond what Wolverine has done.
I'm not sure Wolverine has ever been stated to have Micro-Second reflexes.
Also it wasn't that low. When Thor got serious he had no problem hitting him. He even grabbed his leg and chucked him before he went for a more Omni-attack.
If Thor was flying or whirling Mjolnir at superspeeds or using tornados e.t.c then obvioulsy Wolverine (or even Spiderman) wouldn't have much hope of tagging him.)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
If someone wants to argue Thor blocking a psi-bolt as some lightspeed attack reflex, one also has to remember that cyclops' optic blasts, have been stated to be lightspeed at least once as well. I guess Cap and Logan are lightspeed in reflexes too. 😐
Cyclops Blasts are Light speed. But for Logan or Cap to be FTL they would have to dodge the blast after Cyk has already fired it.
That's more akin to what Thor did. He instinctually raised Mjolnir to block the psi-bolt as it was fired.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85The trends of the thread. Nobody cares about Thor vs Hyperion.
Also, I fail to see the point of posting Superman scans in a Thor speed thread...least mine was in response to a request!
Originally posted by CosmicCometSuch statements categorically ignore their respective feats and performances throughout their careers. The one time Wolverine did it doesn't equate to the many times Thor's done it with lasers, even if you want to ignore how fast a telepathic blast can be in comics. You don't expect Wolverine to do those things.
Why is it PIS/low showing for Wolverine to keep pace with Thor in reflexes exactly?It's not like Thor's own reflex feats are beyond what Wolverine has done.
If someone wants to argue Thor blocking a psi-bolt as some lightspeed attack reflex, one also has to remember that cyclops' optic blasts, have been stated to be lightspeed at least once as well. I guess Cap and Logan are lightspeed in reflexes too. 😐
How many people can say with an honest straight face that Thor doesn't casually deal with bullets and lasers by straight blocking, or twirling his hammer or batting them away with a swing in mid-flight?
Bullets and lasers have so seldom hit Thor that he had the same problem Wonder Woman had for many years, i.e., people wondering if he blocked them out of necessity because he wasn't bullet-proof. Daredevil has perhaps three (or four) instances of batting away bullets and many people accept that he is a step ahead in reflexes to Wolverine. Thor does it often, and even more often with lasers, and somehow he's somewhat even with Wolverine? Think a little bit more rationally about this.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your right Masterson Thor is not equal to Thor. He's actually less than Thor. So if Masterson can stand up to Gladiator, then of course Thor can who is superior to Masterson in every way (except in architecture skills).Oh ok so we're resorting to outright LIES NOW!
Show me now when Thor was outmatched by Gladiator!
Blame rage.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Pretty much the only time Gladiator's speed gave him an overwhelming advantage was here:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsGladiator4.jpg
