Hulk vs Count Nefaria

Originally posted by carver9
Lol...Rage...a calm Hulk doesn't =WWH. There isn't a single showing in comics proving that Hulk stays at those levels daily. Now he can quickly get to those levels but that doesn't mean he walks around at those levels daily. WWH is one of the strongest incarnation to ever walk the planet and again, its debatable if Nul was at those levels because if he was, Earth defense would have been pissing in their pants like they was before.

You need to get rid of this idea that Hulk not raging is somehow an indication of his overall power level. That reasoning no longer applies I'm afraid. As revealed during HoTM, he doesn't even need to get angry to reach World Breaker levels, he can draw on that well of power on a whim like other heroes, it no longer requires outside stimulation, he simply holds back. Even the entire calm rage angle was introduced way back in the beginning of the WWH event.

The Hulk that grabbed the hammer should be at least on par with the day to day levels of World War Hulk and that's me being reasonable. If the tables were turned, you'd be arguing that Thor is far more powerful than World Breaker or something equally preposterous.

Has Green Scar ever been weaker than his World War Hulk levels? If so, when? And you better provide some actual evidence.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? Green Scar isn't the Savage incarnation, he doesn't have to be foaming at the mouth to be incredibly powerful. He was totally coherent and was able to transform into World Breaker instantaneously. The argument you're presenting for him being less powerful than his World War Hulk levels when he grabbed the hammer is pretty amusing seeing as how it is was right after the HoTM arc.

You might as well not even read Hulk comics.

While carver is an incompetent debater and probably does the hulks case more harm than good with his so called arguments, the core of his point as I understand it is fairly sound. The hulk that picked up the hammer was the green scar in the sense that it was the same incarnation of hulk that appeared in WWH ( I.e more controlled rage, articulate etc). However just like other versions of hulk Green scars strength was anger dependent, so while he certainly didn't need to be foaming at the mouth to be a considerable threat, I highly doubt that while chilling with Betty,he was at the same level strengthens as he was when he thought his entire planet and wife had been killed by the same people who shot him into space....

The HOTM arc didn't eliminate the need or influence of anger in hulks character.... that's a bit of a stretch. If anything we see in the issues leading up to that entire scenario hulk getting mad and stronger in reaction to things like Betty being with tyrannous etc. I'm pretty sure that right before he even goes full on world breaker mode, Betty kisses tyrannous or something like that. Pak certainly didn't do away with the anger part of hulks character....heck even post Zeus fight hulk in order to speed up the healing process kept trying to get himself madder....clearly indicating that the most central part of the character is still intact even if tweaked a bit.

Originally posted by carver9
References that WWH could destroy a planet.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/hulkplanetarythreat1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/hulkplanetarythreat2.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/hulkplanetarythreat3.jpg

Strange stating Hulk has never been this powerful.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/wwhstrongest.jpg

Reed states Hulk power is off the charts.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/hulkpoweroffcharts.jpg

Shield states Hulk is at a power level they have never seen.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/wwhstrongest1.jpg

Gamma corps profile states that WWH is angrier than he has ever been.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/wwhangriest.jpg

Another scan that states Hulk is angrier and stronger than he has ever been.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/wwhstrongest2.jpg

I can go all day with this. Like I said, its DEBATABLE if Nul was as strong as WWH...your average Hulk, you might have an argument with the AVERAGE Hulk but WWH...hell naw.

What are you intending to prove with the scans? Busting a planet isnt big shakes. Savage would be able to do it without to much problem.

And all those statements are pre Nul. So yeah at the time he was the best they had seen of hulk. Until Nul appeared. (Excluding WB of course)

Originally posted by Naija boy
While carver is an incompetent debater and probably does the hulks case more harm than good with his so called arguments, the core of his point as I understand it is fairly sound. The hulk that picked up the hammer was the green scar in the sense that it was the same incarnation of hulk that appeared in WWH ( I.e more controlled rage, articulate etc). However just like other versions of hulk Green scars strength was anger dependent, so while he certainly didn't need to be foaming at the mouth to be a considerable threat, I highly doubt that while chilling with Betty,he was at the same level strengthens as he was when he thought his entire planet and wife had been killed by the same people who shot him into space....

While I'd wager the basis for some of this shit was laid out earlier with the calm rage explanation (Hulk could still maintain the strength of an enraged form while being centered or whatever), I would have still agreed with you, at least somewhat, but not after reading HoTM.

It just doesn't make the most sense to me. While pissing him off obviously directly influences his power level, the implication of him holding back all this power the entire time is that he doesn't need outside stimulation the same way that Savage does. The reason he doesn't go World Breaker regularly is not because he isn't angry enough, it's because he chooses not to.

Now, I'm not arguing when he was possessed by Nul he became more powerful than World Breaker than anything, but I can't imagine how he'd be weaker than he was at World War Hulk levels.

Originally posted by carver9
He wasn't weakened.

Hulk did gain versatility...not denying that. Was he at WWH levels...don't think so. Zom Strange was hitting WWH so hard that it was putting holes in his body and he was ok afterwards...Nul wasn't on those levels.

He wasn't damaged (Hulk/Nul) at all...he wasn't koed either and there is nothing showing that he WAS koed. The only thing you have is speculation which just isnt good enough...especially since we have him busting through an entire race of super humans.

We read that fight completely different buddy.

yeah he was. I provided the evidence. You just choose not to accept it. Doesnt mean im wrong.

What is that statement supposed to prove? Nul never got a hole torn through his body like that. And if he did why wouldn't he able able to heal from it like WWH if not better? Because you say so?

I guess getting knocked off a building while in obvious pan and bleeding isnt being damaged anymore these days. I base it off his eyes being closed and being unable to speak. The empty "" or "..." marks seemed to be Fractions way of saying that the guys was ****ed up. I base that off Angrir, Galactus, and the serpent. So no its not just speculation. To me its all there. Thats because he healed. Why do I have to repeat this? And he wasnt absolutely Knocked the F out. It was brief KO but a KO still.

yep.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You need to get rid of this idea that Hulk not raging is somehow an indication of his overall power level. That reasoning no longer applies I'm afraid. As revealed during HoTM, he doesn't even need to get angry to reach World Breaker levels, he can draw on that well of power on a whim like other heroes, it no longer requires outside stimulation, he simply holds back. Even the entire calm rage angle was introduced way back in the beginning of the WWH event.

The Hulk that grabbed the hammer should be at least on par with the day to day levels of World War Hulk and that's me being reasonable. If the tables were turned, you'd be arguing that Thor is far more powerful than World Breaker or something equally preposterous.

Has Green Scar ever been weaker than his World War Hulk levels? If so, when? And you better provide some actual evidence.

Why get rid of my idea when overall, its true.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
While I'd wager the basis for all this shit was laid out earlier with the calm rage explanation (Hulk could still maintain the strength of an enraged form while being centered or whatever), I would have still agreed with you, at least somewhat, but not after reading HoTM.

It just doesn't make any sense to me. His strength levels no longer requires any outside stimulation (Up until all out World Breaker at least) like the Savage Hulk, he simply chooses to hold back.

Seriously, what's there to disagree with:

Now, I'm not arguing when he was possessed by Nul he became more powerful than World Breaker than anything, but he wasn't weaker than WWH levels.

Im on my ipad so i cant see the scan but having read hotm i think i know which scan that is. I don't take him holding back and his strength level being anger dependent as being mutually exclusive. For instance we know he was holding back during wwh but it was also emphasised that his strength was directly depndent on his anger. Further even within his green scar persona since wwh we have seen direct instances of anger Increasing his strength with simultaneously holding himself back( see Zeus, and the Semi worldbresker mode he entered when facing skaar). This shows the interaction of both his personal choice and rage. Since his rage is more controlled it actually makes sense that he would be able to regulate it and hence spur himself to world breaker levels yet still keep himself in check to a certain extent. Hence he would still be choosing his own level of strength.

I'd say null has certain advantages over WWH and could perhaps win in a fight but prior to picking up the hammer I certainly wouldn't say hulk was at WWH ( during the actual event) levels of strength

Originally posted by Stoic
Nul was written weaker than the Hulk during HOTM, this is certain, and the idea that a Hulk without additional supernatural power can, and has gone toe to toe with Thor several times makes Nul's battle with Thor seem like it was illogically written.

Nul was an amped Hulk. That much was made abundantly clear through the event of Fear Itself. It was Hulk (ala Green Scar/WWH) with an enchanted Asgardian hammer. How that, somehow, impossibly makes him weaker than before makes no sense and is a poor excuse to try and save face for him. The fact that the Nul entity has been described as a "Hulk's Hulk" and legitimately gives Hulk cause for concern, if not outright fear, of its power should be enough, to say nothing of the simple logic that Hulk + Asgardian power = Amped Hulk.

As far as Thor going toe-to-toe with Nul goes...what's the big deal? Nothing PIS about it considering Thor's history of engaging in prolonged battles against foes who are more powerful than he is and being able to harm them. Thor also managed to score more direct hits on Nul than vice versa and his one shot BFR out of Earth's orbit trick he pulled off while injured resulted in him being KO'd while Nul eventually just came back with no issue. This was also a blood lusted Thor who was fighting for more than just his pride to end the long running rivalry between he and Hulk.

Bump

Originally posted by Naija boy
Im on my ipad so i cant see the scan but having read hotm i think i know which scan that is. I don't take him holding back and his strength level being anger dependent as being mutually exclusive. For instance we know he was holding back during wwh but it was also emphasised that his strength was directly depndent on his anger. Further even within his green scar persona since wwh we have seen direct instances of anger Increasing his strength with simultaneously holding himself back( see Zeus, and the Semi worldbresker mode he entered when facing skaar). This shows the interaction of both his personal choice and rage. Since his rage is more controlled it actually makes sense that he would be able to regulate it and hence spur himself to world breaker levels yet still keep himself in check to a certain extent. Hence he would still be choosing his own level of strength.

I'd say null has certain advantages over WWH and could perhaps win in a fight but prior to picking up the hammer I certainly wouldn't say hulk was at WWH ( during the actual event) levels of strength

This post is right on point.