Hulk vs Count Nefaria

Originally posted by carver9
Wonderman isn't as strong as Savage Hulk and Bi Beast and Wendigo is just as strong as Savage Hulk.

Neither Bi Beast or Wendigo is as strong as Savage Hulk in general.
Remember Savage Hulk is variable in two ways:

1. Strength depends on rage
2. Writer's variance

Hulk has been beaten by both lower beings and higher beings than himself.

IMO, Wendigo and Bi Beast operate at the level Savage Hulk does when he is around 1000-10000 tons. IMO, Wonderman's strength is around a few hundred thousand tons at best (and a few thousand on average).

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk did something better and grabbed Thor arm and used Thor own hammer and made Thor beat the hell out of himself.

Come on Carver, admit it. Those scans are nuts! He's just standing there!

1. Nefaria because he is more durable and probably stronger with other powers (like speed and laser vision).
2. WBH because he has HF and is much much stronger and probably as durable

Originally posted by h1a8
Neither Bi Beast or Wendigo is as strong as Savage Hulk in general.
Remember Savage Hulk is variable in two ways:

1. Strength depends on rage
2. Writer's variance

Hulk has been beaten by both lower beings and higher beings than himself.

IMO, Wendigo and Bi Beast operate at the level Savage Hulk does when he is around 1000-10000 tons. IMO, Wonderman's strength is around a few hundred thousand tons at best (and a few thousand on average).

So Bi Beast beating a Hulk that is in a RAGE isn't a ft that puts him in Savage Hulks class?

So Wendigo beating up on both Savage Hulk and Sasquash isn't a ft that puts him in the high tier bracket? Get out of here with your lame math.

You can't discredit everything because the Hulk strength varies, especially if that Hulk is pissed and shaking cities while punching you.

Bye H1.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Which is a strength feat.
I am showing Nefaria's durability by literally being completely unaffected by the Hammer Strikes and a barrage of power punches from Wonder Man.

Come on Carver, admit it. Those scans are nuts! He's just standing there!

I agree, the ft is insane bit it has been repeated by people that Hulk has trounced with 3 punches....Hyperion.

Originally posted by h1a8
Neither Bi Beast or Wendigo is as strong as Savage Hulk in general.
Remember Savage Hulk is variable in two ways:

1. Strength depends on rage
2. Writer's variance

Hulk has been beaten by both lower beings and higher beings than himself.

IMO, Wendigo and Bi Beast operate at the level Savage Hulk does when he is around 1000-10000 tons. IMO, Wonderman's strength is around a few hundred thousand tons at best (and a few thousand on average).

For the record, if Wendigo and Bi-Beast hadn't been completely ruined in newer showings, in an attempt to make Hulk and other characters look good, they would still rank as some top-tier opponents.
They have been turned into fodder.

Originally posted by carver9
So Bi Beast beating a Hulk that is in a RAGE isn't a ft that puts him in Savage Hulks class?

So Wendigo beating up on both Savage Hulk and Sasquash isn't a ft that puts him in the high tier bracket? Get out of here with your lame math.

You can't discredit everything because the Hulk strength varies, especially if that Hulk is pissed and shaking cities while punching you.

Bye H1.

Originally posted by Horrificus

It should be noted that while Nefaria was insanely durable, the only time he actually bounced Mjolnir off of his chest was on the cover.

I'm sure he could, but Thor arrived just as he finished running a train on the entire Avenger's line up.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree, the ft is insane bit it has been repeated by people that Hulk has trounced with 3 punches....Hyperion.

True, Hyperion has replicated it, but tbf, Thor like usual was holding back. As shown here, he drops another -I think more powerful- Hyperion with a throw (One that he also considers a love tap):
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThrowKnocksDownHyperion.jpg

Even a berserk Thing has shrugged off a Mjolnir throw because Thor was afraid that if he threw it with sufficient force, he'd kill him or whatever.

Like I said, Thor holds back a lot.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It should be noted that while Nefaria was insanely durable, the only time he actually bounced Mjolnir off of his chest was on the cover.

I'm sure he could, but Thor arrived just as he finished running a train on the entire Avenger's line up.

True, Hyperion has replicated it, but tbf, Thor like usual was holding back. As shown here, he drops another -I think more powerful- Hyperion with a throw (One that he also considers a love tap):
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThrowKnocksDownHyperion.jpg

Even a berserk Thing has shrugged off a Mjolnir throw because Thor was afraid that if he threw it with sufficient force, he'd kill him or whatever.

Like I said, Thor holds back a lot.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It should be noted that while Nefaria was insanely durable, the only time he actually bounced Mjolnir off of his chest was on the cover.

I'm sure he could, but Thor arrived just as he finished running a train on the entire Avenger's line up.

True, Hyperion has replicated it, but tbf, Thor like usual was holding back. As shown here, he drops another -I think more powerful- Hyperion with a throw (One that he also considers a love tap):
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThrowKnocksDownHyperion.jpg

Even a berserk Thing has shrugged off a Mjolnir throw because Thor was afraid that if he threw it with sufficient force, he'd kill him or whatever.

Like I said, Thor holds back a lot.

Second, wouldn't it be more logical to assume that, although he might hold back against the likes of Hyperion and the Thing, even subconsciously, he would be less likely to be holding back against an obvious villain like Nefaria, whom, as you stated, had just beat on Thor's pals severely?

And, although I understand the point you guys are trying to make about other characters withstanding a hammer strike from Thor, I do not remember too many instances where they just casually reach up and palm it in mid swing, while conversing. And, without any type of shield or barrier.
Just through physical strength and durability and that's all.

Originally posted by Horrificus
I concede that this happens. Sure. But, is that supposed to be a fact that should be factored into every Thor battle then? Or, would it have to be stated somewhere that he held back? Just asking.

Second, wouldn't it be more logical to assume that, although he might hold back against the likes of Hyperion and the Thing, even subconsciously, he would be less likely to be holding back against an obvious villain like Nefaria, whom, as you stated, had just beat on Thor's pals severely?

And, although I understand the point you guys are trying to make about other characters withstanding a hammer strike from Thor, I do not remember too many instances where they just casually reach up and palm it in mid swing, while conversing. And, without any type of shield or barrier.
Just through physical strength and durability and that's all.

While it's true, Thor generally holds back, you misunderstood me, I was pointing out that Nefaria bouncing Mjolnir off of his chest never actually happened, it only appeared on the cover unless Busiek tried to retcon it.

Like I said, Nefaria could do it sure, but Thor saw him trounce the Avengers and wasn't going to be hitting him with love taps.

Yea, palming Mjolnir like that is an awesome showing of strength. He was created to be stronger than Thor/Hulk, at least generally.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Ok. I guess I have to start digging into Wonder Man scans.
If we got paid for all the work we do in these forums, I think we would be a wealthy bunch of comic book nerds. 😛

For the record, if Wendigo and Bi-Beast hadn't been completely ruined in newer showings, in an attempt to make Hulk and other characters look good, they would still rank as some top-tier opponents.
They have been turned into fodder.

Look up Avengers Annual 16. Hyperion vs Wonderman. It shows the gap between Wonderman, and the true big boys.

damn, some serious underrating of ironman. i'd give him 10/10 against bi-beast, for certain. wendigo is different, and variable. some simon would beat, some maybe not, but he would do well against all of them. he scored a ko vs abomination, has wrecked ULTRON, has stalemated hercules, had thor w/o hammer on the ropes, has punked goliath numerous times, etc. he is not as strong as thor, but he's the tier below and is pretty damn close. yeah, simon is being seriously underestimated.

Originally posted by leonidas
damn, some serious underrating of ironman. i'd give him 10/10 against bi-beast, for certain. wendigo is different, and variable. some simon would beat, some maybe not, but he would do well against all of them. he scored a ko vs abomination, has wrecked ULTRON, has stalemated hercules, had thor w/o hammer on the ropes, has punked goliath numerous times, etc. he is not as strong as thor, but he's the tier below and is pretty damn close. yeah, simon is being seriously underestimated.

Was the Abomination jobbing as he did so often to everyone else? Ironman should beat Bi-Beast 10/10 and you use the word underrate? Thor struggled against Bi-Beast, and Ironman wasn't really on or near Thor's level. Ironman Ko'd the Hulk once, and every other time that they fought he ate the bottom of foot. What Ultron did he wreck? Not the one that nearly annihilated the West Coast Avengers lineup that he was also part of. Never claimed that Simon was weak, but he was also never placed in the class 100 tier in any comic power listing, except for here on KMC. Simon as I stated, is that guy that isn't weak, but will never quite reach the big boys when they cut loose. This was evident when Femtron hit the scene, and Simon was flagged off as not being capable of stepping up to this kind of challenge.

Hercules got worked by the Masters of Evil, whereas Thor put them under foot fairly easily. Comparing Simon to the Hulk is a bad idea, when you consider that the Hulk while dying, was taking on Herc, Ironman, Namor, Doc Samson, and Wonderman himself. Seriously read Avengers Annual 16, and see the difference and, what separates Simon from the big boys.

believe the count was intended to b stronger than supes

hulk is hulk

this match isn't hard to say a winner

Originally posted by Stoic
Was the Abomination jobbing as he did so often to everyone else? Ironman should beat Bi-Beast 10/10 and you use the word underrate? Thor struggled against Bi-Beast, and Ironman wasn't really on or near Thor's level. Ironman Ko'd the Hulk once, and every other time that they fought he ate the bottom of foot. What Ultron did he wreck? Not the one that nearly annihilated the West Coast Avengers lineup that he was also part of. Never claimed that Simon was weak, but he was also never placed in the class 100 tier in any comic power listing, except for here on KMC. Simon as I stated, is that guy that isn't weak, but will never quite reach the big boys when they cut loose. This was evident when Femtron hit the scene, and Simon was flagged off as not being capable of stepping up to this kind of challenge.

Hercules got worked by the Master of Evil, whereas Thor put them under foot fairly easily. Comparing Simon to the Hulk is a bad idea, when you consider that the Hulk while dying, was taking on Herc, Ironman, Namor, Doc Samson, and Wonderman himself. Seriously read Avengers Annual 16, and see the difference in what separates Simon from the big boys.

simon has worked ironman as well. thor struggled against simon. not sure which ultron, but any ultron is a beast. he is defintely cl100, not sure how you could contend that, and no, abom wasn't jobbing.....

herc who got worked by masters of evil was drugged and was STILL demolishing them until goliath attacked him from behind.

that hulk was bannerless and took it to everyone. that was the strongest hulk up until recent hulk changes. and i've read that annual but one showing doesn't define a character. hype himself has good and poor showings. seems like some lowballing happening here......

Originally posted by leonidas
simon has worked ironman as well. thor struggled against simon. not sure which ultron, but any ultron is a beast. he is defintely cl100, not sure how you could contend that, and no, abom wasn't jobbing.....

herc who got worked by masters of evil was drugged and was STILL demolishing them until goliath attacked him from behind.

that hulk was bannerless and took it to everyone. that was the strongest hulk up until recent hulk changes. and i've read that annual but one showing doesn't define a character. hype himself has good and poor showings. seems like some lowballing happening here......

With context being considered for the Ironman KO of the Hulk of course. Ironman overcharged the MK1 (or was it MK2?) to KO the Hulk, he never did that in his fight with Simon, nor would he unless Simon was deemed to be as large a threat as the Hulk was at that time.

Simon may be a class 100, but he isn't on the same level of class 100 as Thor, Hulk, Hercules, Sentry, Blue Marvel.... the list goes on and on. I never said that Simon was not strong, but he simply would not beat the big boys if they went all out, while he went all out as well. he was never meant to be that powerful.

Simon was never a match for Ultron on his own, while the Hulk crushed his frame with one strong hit, and that was primary adamantium Ultron that was damaged to the point of being rendered physically useless. This was also a weaker Hulk than the mindless one.

When Hyperion defeated Simon, it was Marvel's stance on how a battle would go if these two fought. look at the way that Gladiator dominated Simon. Thor defeated Gladiator. This is all that I am saying. Against the higher class 100's Simon gets worked. Am I really low-balling Simon, or just telling the truth about his past performances against mid to high class 100's? The scan of Nefaria no selling Simon's punches should lend power to my argument, as it is a prime example.

Originally posted by Stoic

Simon was never a match for Ultron on his own, while the Hulk crushed his frame with one strong hit, and that was primary adamantium Ultron that was damaged to the point of being rendered physically useless.

In Avengers: Children's Crusade #3, Captain America describes Wonder Man as having "Sentry-level" strength. (I think that is a decent source.)

Also, in a fight with Namor, Namor says that WM is almost as strong as Thor. And, WM ends up knocking Namor out cold.

The truth is Wonderman after the 70's has never been the big cowardly gun he was then consistently. In Marvel presents he shreds Iron Man for the love of the Enchatress. He has defeated high ends, Avengers annual 16 like many 80's annuals suffers from being shit, e.g. Surfer V Korvac.... It really shouldn't be canon. If I remember rightly Iron Man is still referring to the armour as transistor powered in that issue. The beating of Abomination is excellent. love the knee to the head!