Originally posted by Stoic
With context being considered for the Ironman KO of the Hulk of course. Ironman overcharged the MK1 (or was it MK2?) to KO the Hulk, he never did that in his fight with Simon, nor would he unless Simon was deemed to be as large a threat as the Hulk was at that time.Simon may be a class 100, but he isn't on the same level of class 100 as Thor, Hulk, Hercules, Sentry, Blue Marvel.... the list goes on and on. I never said that Simon was not strong, but he simply would not beat the big boys if they went all out, while he went all out as well. he was never meant to be that powerful.
Simon was never a match for Ultron on his own, while the Hulk crushed his frame with one strong hit, and that was primary adamantium Ultron that was damaged to the point of being rendered physically useless. This was also a weaker Hulk than the mindless one.
When Hyperion defeated Simon, it was Marvel's stance on how a battle would go if these two fought. look at the way that Gladiator dominated Simon. Thor defeated Gladiator. This is all that I am saying. Against the higher class 100's Simon gets worked. Am I really low-balling Simon, or just telling the truth about his past performances against mid to high class 100's? The scan of Nefaria no selling Simon's punches should lend power to my argument, as it is a prime example.
hulk was stunned by an exploding jet when he overloaded that old armor to score that ko. never would have happened had hulk been fresh. a charged IM has handled thor in that old armor, so saying a maxed IM could hang with and maybe score a win over wm is NOT a poor showing. IM has defeated nearly everyone at one point or other.
h brought up the ko'ing of namor which i neglected.
i agree with you (and this is the second time in as many weeks i've found myself defending wm, a character i've never even really liked) in that he's not in the same tier as sentry and thor or hulk, but he is very close and can hang with all of them for extended periods of time and very very rarely gets 'worked'. you seem to put a lot into that hyperion fight. i put a lot in the thor fight. and beating namor. and ko'ing abom. and taking out ultron 1on1. look at the way he was depicted as hollywood in gotg for another take on what he was thought of. hollywood slugged it out for a time with dormammu.
i say lowballing because you're putting a lot of stock in one showing, and (seemingly) ignoring his other showings. and the good showings (vs prof hulk, thor, herc, namor, abom, ultron, etc...) outweigh the lesser ones. completely no-selling his punches was a very impressive feat imo, one no other herald-leveler could accomplish except maybe that most recent version of hulk perhaps.
anyway, not sure why we're on the topic, but......yeah.
he's talking about a late 80's avengers annual where hype is part of grandmaster's group of undead heroes. his team squares off against the avengers and one of the matches is hype vs wm. they stalemate for a bit, then hype smashes him and proceeds to use his speed to blitz wm straight through the planet and into the sun where they both die. very odd. anyway, several of the heroes died against their opponents--it was just that type of arc because death meant nothing. there's also the fact that hype at one time gave thor hell. a great showing? not at all. but losing to that evil version of hyperion in an arc where many of the heroes died isn't exactly awful. 😬
in that arc thor actually battled skurge, someone else simon has had the better of....
Originally posted by leonidas
hulk was stunned by an exploding jet when he overloaded that old armor to score that ko. never would have happened had hulk been fresh. a charged IM has handled thor in that old armor, so saying a maxed IM could hang with and maybe score a win over wm is NOT a poor showing. IM has defeated nearly everyone at one point or other.h brought up the ko'ing of namor which i neglected.
i agree with you (and this is the second time in as many weeks i've found myself defending wm, a character i've never even really liked) in that he's not in the same tier as sentry and thor or hulk, but he is very close and can hang with all of them for extended periods of time and very very rarely gets 'worked'. you seem to put a lot into that hyperion fight. i put a lot in the thor fight. and beating namor. and ko'ing abom. and taking out ultron 1on1. look at the way he was depicted as hollywood in gotg for another take on what he was thought of. hollywood slugged it out for a time with dormammu.
i say lowballing because you're putting a lot of stock in one showing, and (seemingly) ignoring his other showings. and the good showings (vs prof hulk, thor, herc, namor, abom, ultron, etc...) outweigh the lesser ones. completely no-selling his punches was a very impressive feat imo, one no other herald-leveler could accomplish except maybe that most recent version of hulk perhaps.
anyway, not sure why we're on the topic, but......yeah.
The point of the topic is Nefaria no selling Wonder Man's punch to the gut. I mentioned the Hulk no selling hits from Wendigo, Bi-Beast, and Arm'Chedon, which is more impressive than Nefaria taking a gut shot from Simon like it was nothing.
At the time that Wonder Man punched Nefaria he was categorized by Marvel as being a class 95. Wendigo, and Bi-Beast at that same period in time were classified class 100's. What we saw during Heart of the Monster, was Marvel showing us how much more powerful the Hulk was since his days of wrestling for entire issues with those guys. Adding in Arm'Cheddon broke the bank.
My point to the comparison was to show the Hulk's superior power in comparison to Nefaria's feat. I also stated that if anyone want's to compare Nefaria's feats with the Hulk, that I wished them good luck in proving that Nefaria is superior, as I don't believe that he is anywhere near. Nefaria lifted a skyscraper, the Hulk kept a planet from exploding. There is a large gap in feats.
Originally posted by Stoic
The point of the topic is Nefaria no selling Wonder Man's punch to the gut. I mentioned the Hulk no selling hits from Wendigo, Bi-Beast, and Arm'Chedon, which is more impressive than Nefaria taking a gut shot from Simon like it was nothing.At the time that Wonder Man punched Nefaria he was categorized by Marvel as being a class 95. Wendigo, and Bi-Beast at that same period in time were classified class 100's. What we saw during Heart of the Monster, was Marvel showing us how much more powerful the Hulk was since his days of wrestling for entire issues with those guys. Adding in Arm'Cheddon broke the bank.
My point to the comparison was to show the Hulk's superior power in comparison to Nefaria's feat. I also stated that if anyone want's to compare Nefaria's feats with the Hulk, that I wished them good luck in proving that Nefaria is superior, as I don't believe that he is anywhere near. Nefaria lifted a skyscraper, the Hulk kept a planet from exploding. There is a large gap in feats.
meh, i'm not really gonna persue this much more. i get what you're saying but like i said, i don't see anyone in the heralds no-selling those shots except hulk. the recent hulk is also>>simon, so the comparison is sort of moot, though i doubt he'd no sell simon like that.
thor was also listed at cl95 at that time i think, or had only recently been updated to cl100, sooo..... 😬
i don't think anyone is saying cn would beat the hulk as shown in hotm. most (including me) think he would beat classic, savge/incredible though.
we'll simply disagree with regards to the impressiveness of cn feat vs IM (thor's hammer also bounced off the chest of hyperion one time, but i doubt anyone would say hype>cn) and the relative strengths of bi-beast and wendigo compared to simon. my opinion is based on the full body of simon's work. bi-beast in particular has very few feats to support his being able to take simon. wendigo, is, as i said, something different.
Originally posted by leonidas
meh, i'm not really gonna persue this much more. i get what you're saying but like i said, i don't see anyone in the heralds no-selling those shots except hulk.
In Ending Battle, Superman essentially nosold shots from Bizarro Superman and Mongul? ^_^;
Besides, there was a wish factor in effect. Shouldn't that make Worldbreakers feats suspect? (Like how he wanted Betty not to be killed by him, so ended up fighting Red Shulk forever..)
Originally posted by cdtm
In Ending Battle, Superman essentially nosold shots from Bizarro Superman and Mongul? ^_^;Besides, there was a wish factor in effect. Shouldn't that make Worldbreakers feats suspect? (Like how he wanted Betty not to be killed by him, so ended up fighting Red Shulk forever..)
The wish doesnt make it suspect at all, since it was in no way alluded to that he was amped (if thats what u are implying) unlike in the case of betty were it was explicitly mentioned. Plus it would go against the theme of the entire story and thereby clear intentions of the author which was to show hulks full unhindered strength.
Originally posted by the Darkone
no in his bio other radiation also!
This is what his bio states.
Powers
When his body is fully charged with ionic energy, Nefaria possesses tremendous, nearly immeasurable strength and durability, high-level superhuman speed, the power of flight, and the ability to fire powerful laser beams from his eyes. In recent times, he has also proven capable of forming and manipulating crude ionic energy constructs, such as an energy strand used to lasso an opponent. If Nefaria's bodily ionic energy reserves dwindle too low, his powers start to fade and his body begins to wither and age rapidly. Nefaria periodically replenishes his energies by draining power from outside sources of ionic energy, often draining other ionic-powered super-beings like himself. If Nefaria drains too much energy too quickly, his victim will die. Like other ionic super-beings such as Atlas and Wonder Man, Nefaria has apparently developed astounding regenerative powers, enabling him to heal himself from a seemingly deceased state or even reintegrate his bodily matter after exploding.
More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/Count_Nefaria#ixzz1kWBZ1O9z
Originally posted by StoicAt the time of Wonder Man punching Nefaria, Nefaria had not changed into an Ionic Vampire yet.
Yes, which leads to the Wonderman no sell gut punch even more suspect.
The Ionic energy from Power Man, Living Laser and Whirlwind is getting transferred to the Count by the machine created by Professor Sturdy.
They received a treatment specifically for this purpose.
Originally posted by Horrificus
At the time of Wonder Man punching Nefaria, Nefaria had not changed into an Ionic Vampire yet.The Ionic energy from Power Man, Living Laser and Whirlwind is getting transferred to the Count by the machine created by Professor Sturdy.
They received a treatment specifically for this purpose.
But what does that have to do with him having the ability to siphon off gamma rays, or other forms of energy outside of the ionic spectrum?
Originally posted by StoicNothing. As a matter of fact, I don't agree with him being able to do THAT.
But what does that have to do with him having the ability to siphon off gamma rays, or other forms of energy outside of the ionic spectrum?
From what I have read, he dabbles, strictly in Ionic energy.
I was just stating that his clash with Wonder Man was at a point before he had the ability to siphon from anybody but the 3 characters that were specifically targeted.
I never saw Nefaria manipulating anything besides Ionic power.
Originally posted by Horrificus
Nothing. As a matter of fact, I don't agree with him being able to do THAT.From what I have read, he dabbles, strictly in Ionic energy.
I was just stating that his clash with Wonder Man was at a point before he had the ability to siphon from anybody but the 3 characters that were specifically targeted.
I never saw Nefaria manipulating anything besides Ionic power.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, really busy. I can't recall the minor details of Nefaria's first appearances as a super type, so if you say that he did not siphon ion powered characters I believe you. This however does not mean that he could not drain them right? It's kind of strange, and I need to go back and check those Avengers issues, but I faintly recall there being some talk about him being able to siphon, even way back then. Gotta check it out though.
Originally posted by StoicWell, originally, the costume he wore was part of the mechanism.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, really busy. I can't recall the minor details of Nefaria's first appearances as a super type, so if you say that he did not siphon ion powered characters I believe you. This however does not mean that he could not drain them right? It's kind of strange, and I need to go back and check those Avengers issues, but I faintly recall there being some talk about him being able to siphon, even way back then. Gotta check it out though.
Originally posted by Horrificus
Well, originally, the costume he wore was part of the mechanism.
Sturdy was one of the orignial team, with Zemo, that created Wonder man. So, he knew how to work with Ionic energy I guess.
Nefaria and Professor Sturdy got a hold of power man, living laser and whirlwind. Nefaria tricked them into thinking they were simply getting amp'd. In reality, the treatment amp's them, but also set them up so his machine could drain them and transfer the energy.
He didn't even want to wear the costume, but he had to, otherwise he couldn't receive the power from Sturdy's machine.
Yeah I remember this, and in turn Nefaria is imbued with power in the multiples of those that were tricked into participating by a factor of I seem to forget... was it 50x?