Kubik vs Abraxas

Originally posted by Galan007

Reed explicitly stated: "our EARTH (earth) seems to be merging
with other alternates (earths.)" One world's creatures melding does
NOT imply that entire universes were melding.

"I could theorize we are in the wrong Reality" (Universe)

"Our Earth" (universe) "seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes)

yawn

Originally posted by Galan007

Impose your opinion on that scene if you'd like. I'll just stick
with what was stated by the "omniscient" Reed Richards.

He knows alot.

"We're dealing with a being of Godlike powers, BENDING Reality means nothing to him"

Meh, he's probably talking about the numerous random individuals that Abraxas mixed.

That is "Reality bending" on a "God-like" level after all. 🙄

Originally posted by Galan007

No more absurd of an idea than you suggesting that an infinite amount of
universes (the multiverse) is completely stagnant and never changes in the
slightest.

Let me know when you got something.

Originally posted by Galan007

Additionally, the "omniscient" Reed Richards never stated Abraxas was
responsible for the multiverse constantly changing. You merely assumed that's
what he was referring to.

Originally posted by Galan007

I suggest you read the latest volume of Exiles in it's entirety.

The answers you seek lie there.

Bring it homie, tell me the issue and/or page.

Don't come at me trying to state something with confidence,
if you got nothing but your idealism as back up.

"I suggest you read ... " ... what? ... lmao

Originally posted by leonidas

i somehow missed this. but the question is easy, you just placed
emphasis on the wrong part. the comparison was not the WORLDS to
the hourglass. the worlds were compared to the SAND in the
hourglass. drop the hourglass and the sand is still intact but the shell
that held them in place--that kept them ordered--is gone. this simply
meant (imo) that he was merging the worlds, blurring lines. and that
is what was shown. each world would in effect cease to be because it
would no longer exist individually. it doens't mean he was going
around 'killing/destroying' universes. he was a force of chaos
according to cap universe. that hourglass scene only reconfirms what
was known and shown as regards abraxas imo.

Abraxas collapsed many Realities via merging them.

The writer is just again, clarifying what it is Abraxas does.

Reality destroyer!

Simple.

......................................................................................

His Job:

[img=http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10720800_Ab2.jpg]

Occupation: "Dimensional Destroyer"

......................................................................................

His power"

[img=http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10720799_A20.jpg]

"Abaraxs ... power enabling him to traverse and manipulate Dimensions at will,
restructure matter ... "

......................................................................................

What he did

AB - FF Ultimate Guide bio:

[img=http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/10720801_Ab6.jpg]

"He can restructure matter and convert physical matter into pure energy ...
he has destroyed entire PLANES of Reality"

......................................................................................

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

Merlyn used to train under a SS in Necrom. And then used the Matrix for his power.

He was created in the multiverse,
and then went to form the Braddock Corps after he rose to power.

That aside,

Show or tell me where you saw Merlin being created in the Multiverse,
or being created at all.

Or show/tell me where anything was stated concerning Merlin's origin.

I have all his appearances,
just tell me where and I'll post it for both of us.

Originally posted by zopzop

No one even knows who or what created the UN or where it comes
from. That thing, in the right hands, was powerful enough to REMAKE
the multiverse. How could it be a part of the multiverse if it's powerful
enough to end and then remake it?

And what would you call that expression on Eternity's face? Joy?
Elation? Pleasant surprise? As Roma is discussing the end of all time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"I could theorize we are in the wrong [b]Reality" (Universe)

"Our Earth" (universe) "seems to be merging with other Alternates." (universes)

yawn[/B]

It was clearly a planetary-level feat. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Mr Master
He knows alot.

"We're dealing with a being of Godlike powers, BENDING Reality means nothing to him"

Look, I'm not saying Abraxas wasn't a universal power--I'm [still] just talking about what we SAW him do on panel.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have all the Exiles books, and read all of them.

Bring it homie, tell me the issue and/or page.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I know Merlin's story well, but thanx anyway.

That aside,

Show or tell me where you saw Merlin being created in the Multiverse,
or being created at all.

Or show/tell me where anything was stated concerning Merlin's origin.

I have all his appearances,
just tell me where and I'll post it for both of us.

Says right there in the first two paragraphs of history that he was born of an Earth

Plus, Merlyn's Godlike power comes from inside the multiverse anyway so that's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Galan007

Whole quote:

"I could theorize that we are in the wrong reality--BUT THAT IS
[b]NOT THE CASE. Our EARTH seems to be merging with
other alternates."

It was clearly a planetary-level feat. Nothing more. [/B]

The reason Reed said they may be in the wrong Universe,
is because other freakin Universes just appeared as one with his.

He then follows, oh no, it's that we're in the wrong Universe,
it's that other Universes have merged with ours.

Planetary level feat? .... laughable.

Originally posted by Galan007

I could warp a Pepsi into a Coke, and technically have "bent
reality." You're applying to much of you own conjecture into some
of the instances you're pointing out, me thinks.

Also, what would you call it,
when Abraxas mind wiped and comatose Uatu (a Watcher) from somewhere in the Multiverse outside of 616.

This is the same pisless Uatu who held an alternate universe in his hands,
and placed it in his chest like a jelly bean.

Or killing all of Reed's alternates simultaneously.

How do you categorize that if he's just planetary?

Originally posted by Galan007

Look, I'm not saying Abraxas wasn't a universal power--I'm
[still] just talking about what we SAW him do on panel.

Abraxas > power of the Multiversal Space-Time Continuum.

Originally posted by Galan007

Read the last series again, then (I'm at work so I can't be
bothered to post scans.) It is made quite clear that the multiverse
isn't some stagnant thing that never changes... the notion that it is
makes me chuckle, in fact. By it's very nature, infinity is ALWAYS
changing. Arguing that fact is laughable, imo.

I never said Infinity is stagnant btw.

You said,
that like in the Abraxas arc, where the Multiverse was shifting violently.
like "the ocean crashing on a sand castle" ...

this happens all the time so it shouldn't be attributed to Abraxas.

Well then, when you post those scans I'll be satisfied cause I can't find em.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah.

The reason Reed said they may be in the wrong Universe,
is because other freakin Universes just appeared as one with his.

He then follows, oh no, it's that we're in the wrong Universe,
it's that other Universes have merged with ours.

Planetary level feat? .... laughable.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also, what would you call it,
when Abraxas mind wiped and comatose Uatu (a Watcher) from somewhere in the Multiverse outside of 616.

This is the same pisless Uatu who held an alternate universe in his hands,
and placed it in his chest like a jelly bean.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Or killing all of Reed's alternates simultaneously.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I never said Infinity is stagnant btw.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well then, when you post those scans I'll be satisfied cause I can't find em.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/merlinyn.htm

Says right there in the first two paragraphs of history that he was born of an Earth

I'm surprised cause they're very thorough.

In Captain Britain Weekly #27 or 28 I believe (I'll flip pages and post the scan)
Merlin tells CB something to the effect that
he manipulated his own existence on this plane.

That sounds to me, like even if he actually had a birth body,
he was in control before said birth.

Imo.

Also, the actual Handbook bio of Merlin tells us nothing is certain:

In the Marvunapp bio, like I told yall before,
it also states that Merlin is unique in the Multiverse,
with no alternates that were not created by him.

The Handbook above corroborates this.

Why would a being that is intrinsically a part of Eternity/infinity
not have alternates and/or other selves like every other sentience?

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb

Plus,
Merlyn's Godlike power comes from inside the multiverse anyway
so that's irrelevant.

He created the Celestial Crystals which embodies the life-force of the Omniverse,
with unchallenged rights to erase these Crystals nullifying Eternity/Infinity.

I agree, this is confusing, who knows what is going on.

Originally posted by Galan007

Red explicitly says: "Our EARTH."
I simply cannot (and will not)
follow your logic that "our earth"="our universe".
That train of thought
makes absolutely no sense to me.

As far as sense is concerned,
you're in the wrong genre if you're looking stability in that.

These are comics friend, on top of that,
I could splatter the page with scans
where the Universes are referred to as "alternate Earths."

I think I will.

Originally posted by Galan007

Same Uatu who was KTFO by Rulk, as well..?

Originally posted by Galan007

This is certainly a great feat--one of Abraxas' best on panel--
however, I still don't think it's on par with warping an entire
universe into a palm-sized sphere.

That aside,
so how do you categorize Abraxas simultaneously killing all of Reed's alternates?

I'm honestly interested.

Originally posted by Galan007

Good, cuz it quite simply can't be. 😛

Originally posted by Galan007

I'll be sure to do that. I work 48 hour shifts, though, so it'll be a few days.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I could splatter the page with scans
where the Universes are referred to as "alternate Earths."

I think I will.

Reed had no problem using words like 'universe' and 'multiverse' during that arc. No reason to think he began referring to whole universes as singular planets in that one instance, and hoped the readers would understand that it was just a 'code phrase' for something vastly larger... 😕

Originally posted by Mr Master
An entire Universe weaker than a single alternate Eternity, let's not forget that.

Sidenote: where was it stated that Beyonder's universe was < Eternity? Can't remember off-hand.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That aside,
so how do you categorize Abraxas simultaneously killing all of Reed's alternates?

Originally posted by Galan007

Unless said scans are from the Abraxas arc, they really don't matter.

Originally posted by Galan007

Reed had no problem using words like 'universe' and 'multiverse'
during that arc. No reason to think he began referring to whole
universes as singular planets in that one instance, and hoped the
readers would understand that it was just a 'code phrase' for
something vastly larger...

We'll agree to disagree cause no one's gonna budge.

Originally posted by Galan007

T'was still a full-blown universe. The scale is still there.

Originally posted by Galan007

Sidenote: where was it stated that Beyonder's universe was < Eternity?
Can't remember off-hand.

Now granted, this is before Beyonder became a full Cube being,
which then he definitely became at-least =/> an alternate Eternity.

The senseless is always a prize though,
because Beyonder is still credited with erasing Death. 😐

Originally posted by Galan007

Hard to say.
I'm not really sure what level of power is required to preform a feat like that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The context of the panel in full is clear imo that it refers to 616
merging with other realities.

We'll agree to disagree cause no one's gonna budge.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Now granted, this is before Beyonder became a full Cube being,
which then he definitely became at-least =/> an alternate Eternity.

The senseless is always a prize though,
because Beyonder is still credited with erasing Death. 😐

Either way, I agree that it is a ridiculous statement to make--as none of Beyonder's high-end feats in SW were retconned. 👇

Originally posted by Galan007
Either way, I agree that it is a ridiculous statement to make--as none of Beyonder's high-end feats in SW were retconned. 👇

They were retconned by default when this went down :

Kubik pwning the sh|t out of the Beyonder and his "universe" :

Kubik AND Kosmos (the Beyonder + Molecule Man minus the sliver that Molecule Man hid away in Marsha) vs ONE unnamed Celestial :

Kubik and Kosmos in the grand scheme of things :

Stating they are insignificant compared to the other powers, even if you take this as merely meaning 'as compared to the Celestials' it still proves my point.

Death > any Celestial (exceptions being Tiamut ascended and Scathan) > Kubik > half Cube Beyonder. And then there's that issue of Quasar when the Contemplater was strolling through the Dimension of Manifestations and spies on the "Trial of Death". Seems to jibe with what Kubik told Kosmos, that the powers and principalities were putting on a show to ease Beyonder's entry into existence.

The killing Death was a show as well as the other things he did. Retconned by default.

Originally posted by zopzop

The killing Death was a show as well as the other things he did. Retconned by default.

ie. Beyonder killing Death is still very much canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
Negatory. Death's 2006 OHOTMU bio still recognizes Beyonder having erased her during SW:

(underlined in red.)

ie. Beyonder killing Death is still very much canon.

If on panel facts contradict handbook entries it's the on panel facts that win out no?

Nothing on panel contradicts Beyonder killing Death. And since her most recent bio fully acknowledges it as FACT, there is absolutely no logical reason to disagree.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nothing on panel contradicts Beyonder killing Death. And since her most recent bio fully acknowledges it as FACT, there is absolutely no logical reason to disagree.

This isn't correct.

Pre-Retcon :

The Beyonder wanted to kill Death and not one of the powers and principalities there had the power to stop him (even though they wanted to). Among the Cosmics present were : the Living Tribunal, Eternity, and the Celestials.

Post - Retcon :

The Molecule Man admits and Kubik later acknowledges that Eternity and the Living Tribunal as well as the Celestials are ALL more powerful than evolved Cube beings like Kubik and Kosmos. These beings were present at the trial of Death.

Death's handbook entry is dead wrong post retcon (it contradicts on panel statements) since any one of the beings I mentioned at the trial could have stepped in and stopped the Beyonder from "killing" Death. Hell Death itself could have swatted him like an insect.

Originally posted by zopzop
This isn't correct.

Pre-Retcon :

The Beyonder wanted to kill Death and not one of the powers and principalities there had the power to stop him (even though they wanted to). Among the Cosmics present were : the Living Tribunal, Eternity, and the Celestials.

Post - Retcon :

The Molecule Man admits and Kubik later acknowledges that Eternity and the Living Tribunal as well as the Celestials are ALL more powerful than evolved Cube beings like Kubik and Kosmos. These beings were present at the trial of Death.

Death's handbook entry is dead wrong post retcon (it contradicts on panel statements) since any one of the beings I mentioned at the trial could have stepped in and stopped the Beyonder from "killing" Death. Hell Death itself could have swatted him like an insect.

That said, the statements made by Marvel staff in Death's most recent bio outweigh much older character statements/your opinion on the matter. Not saying I like it, but arguing with such blatantly stated facts is illogical.

Originally posted by Galan007
The most recent info=the most canon. The scans you posted above are all like 20+ years old. Death's bio was published in 2006.

That said, the statements made by Marvel staff in Death's most recent bio outweigh much older character statements/your opinion on the matter. Not saying I like it, but arguing with such blatantly stated facts is illogical.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what does the age of the ON PANEL info have to do with anything (unless there's been another retcon)? Last time I checked "on panel" info > handbooks.

Death's bio is dead wrong. If you accept it at face value, then you are saying that post retcon half Cube Beyonder that got schooled by Kubik is more powerful than the LT, Eternity, and the Celestials combined. Since they were all there at the Trial and didn't want Death killed, yet were helpless to stop the Beyonder.

We know this to be false because ON panel Kubik, who defeated the half Cube Beyonder, admitted inferiority to the Celestials (on multiple occasions) and said that the powers put on a show for the Beyonder to ease him into existence (backed up by the Quasar issue). We also have on panel statements by the Molecule Man admitting inferiority to the Living Tribunal and Eternity.

You want me to ignore all this on panel statements and accept as fact a handbook entry that's clearly wrong?