Originally posted by DarkSaint85
OK, I'll bite (btw Jake, my post wasn't meant to denigrate you in any manner).Which character of J'onn will you go for? The 'Jolly Green Buddha' persona as named by Flash (or maybe it was GL)? The more militaristic, no-nonense J'onn we saw pre-Final Crisis? The persona where he turns his inhibitions off, i.e. Fernus mode? Or the DCnU version who (seems?) to be willing to do what it takes for the greater good?
Usually, I agree, CIS does not equal suddenly someone like Surfer is creating singularities at the speed of light or whatever. But recently (in the last 10 years or so) J'onn underwent quite a radical overhaul of his characteristics.
Most of those incarnations of J'onn would put anywhere from a good to downright valiant effort, but ultimately get worked over by Hulk at this state imo.
A more aggressive J'onn would have to be in play to last longer than a couple of moments here.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
nope.CIS off means characters don't forget their powers in situations where they would normally remember them.
CIP (character induced power (should be inhibited)) is still on meaning that MM's character is still in play. he's not going to be fighting "tourney style" here, just without the usual forgetfulness he usually exhibits in his many humble showings.
for example: in that annihilation comic where surfer said he [could create singularities within the pupils of his enemies], that was not CIS but rather CIP since he knew he could do it, but refrained form such a tactic cause he is in character. if this was a tournament well.....
👆
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Most of those incarnations of J'onn would put anywhere from a good to downright valiant effort, but ultimately get worked over by Hulk at this state imo.A more aggressive J'onn would have to be in play to last longer than a couple of moments here.
Pretty much. It was clear that the Hulk broke out of the top tier league with his showing. J'onn is outgunned. While everyone keeps saying that the Hulk may not be able to touch him for a certainty, no one has considered the idea of J'onn actually being touched. No one has considered that the Hulk also gets his powers from an extra-dimensional source, and that even while being intangible the power that the Hulk puts off may actually effect J'onn in this form.
In character is placed there for a reason, and even while going berserk, the character simply can not break the bonds of who they truly are, and who J'onn truly is, is a guy that has been beaten many times by less than what he would be facing here, regardless of his speed, because it can be easily argued that the Sentry was operating at speeds as great as J'onn, or greater. The Hulk hit him didn't he.
Originally posted by Stoic
Pretty much. It was clear that the Hulk broke out of the top tier league with his showing. J'onn is outgunned. While everyone keeps saying that the Hulk may not be able to touch him for a certainty, no one has considered the idea of J'onn actually being touched. No one has considered that the Hulk also gets his powers from an extra-dimensional source, and that even while being intangible the power that the Hulk puts off may actually effect J'onn in this form.
That's because that's a dark route nobody wants to take - its like saying that MM's intangibility is such that he would majorly mess Hulk up like no-one has ever before, or that his Martian TP would somehow affect the Hulk in a way no one else has before. Sounds silly, doesn't it?
In character is placed there for a reason, and even while going berserk, the character simply can not break the bonds of who they truly are, and who J'onn truly is, is a guy that has been beaten many times by less than what he would be facing here, regardless of his speed, because it can be easily argued that the Sentry was operating at speeds as great as J'onn, or greater. The Hulk hit him didn't he. [/B]
Yes, but the intangibility PLUS speed is what is being touted here. So MM could go intangible at speeds far quicker than the Hulk could punch him, is what is being argued.
Also, if we go by 'who MM truly is'....well, that brings Fernus the Burning to the table. And he was wrecking the JLA
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's because that's a dark route nobody wants to take - its like saying that MM's intangibility is such that he would majorly mess Hulk up like no-one has ever before, or that his Martian TP would somehow affect the Hulk in a way no one else has before. Sounds silly, doesn't it?
What I said really isn't considering the Hulk having a history of such feats.
Yes, but the intangibility PLUS speed is what is being touted here. So MM could go intangible at speeds far quicker than the Hulk could punch him, is what is being argued.
Also, if we go by 'who MM truly is'....well, that brings Fernus the Burning to the table. And he was wrecking the JLA
Like I said above, The Hulk has hit beings capable of becoming intangible before, and has hit guys capable of moving at the speeds that J'onn can.
J'onn has also failed to intangibly seep into several opponents due to them being too dense or durable (dense is a bad word for scientific purposes sorry) in the past, and HOTM Hulk clearly boosted his durability by leaps and bounds. guy's capable of punching more than 100 tons, were incapable of even budging him, or noticing that they were actually hitting him.
Originally posted by Stoic
J'onn has also failed to intangibly seep into several opponents due to them being too dense or durable (dense is a bad word for scientific purposes sorry) in the past, and HOTM Hulk clearly boosted his durability by leaps and bounds. guy's capable of punching more than 100 tons, were incapable of even budging him, or noticing that they were actually hitting him.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I DID ask, several times, early on in this thread and in the WBH vs JLA thread, for scans/examples of people hitting MM when intangible without magical/PIS amps. Just pure physical force (like how the Hulk would smash him). I was still waiting.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Like who? That's good and all but how does that helps here?
Sorry I got him confused with the Weird, my memory is shot. It was the Weird that had trouble seeping into Synnar, not J'onn. While J'onn was just pummeled by Synnar during Hardcore station. Got the characters mixed up there. 😮
Originally posted by abhilegend
No problem stoic.
The Hulk has still hit the supposed unhittable though, and tagged a speeder right on the chin in the form of Sentry. This thread however borders on the ludicrous, because J'onn never ever fights the way that people are saying he does in this thread, J'onn has been hit consistently by character after character, without him being deemed as fighting a stupid fight. The guy simply is not invincible, and has never been portrayed in this light.
Originally posted by StoicHulk didn't break out of the top tier with the feat for two reasons:
Pretty much. It was clear that the Hulk broke out of the top tier league with his showing. J'onn is outgunned. While everyone keeps saying that the Hulk may not be able to touch him for a certainty, no one has considered the idea of J'onn actually being touched. No one has considered that the Hulk also gets his powers from an extra-dimensional source, and that even while being intangible the power that the Hulk puts off may actually effect J'onn in this form.
1. It was a shared feat and without the help of Betty she would have only achieved 1/4 of the feat.
2. Superman has feats above that goes beyond 50 Earth weights of force, not including those infinite feats of course.
In character is placed there for a reason, and even while going berserk, the character simply can not break the bonds of who they truly are, and who J'onn truly is, is a guy that has been beaten many times by less than what he would be facing here, regardless of his speed, because it can be easily argued that the Sentry was operating at speeds as great as J'onn, or greater. The Hulk hit him didn't he.
Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk didn't break out of the top tier with the feat for two reasons:1. It was a shared feat and without the help of Betty she would have only achieved 1/4 of the feat.
2. Superman has feats above that goes beyond 50 Earth weights of force, not including those infinite feats of course.Characters fight at their best as shown before here as a forum rule. Surely that means something and would contradict characters fighting at their average (since best=/= average). The only thing is we can only use things that the character has SHOWN to mean their best and not speculation of the things they can do without on panel proof.
CIS is always on nut. Each person fight in character. We don't ignore on panel evidence because we want a character to fight in a fashion that doesn't show throughout this characters history.
Originally posted by carver9
CIS is always on nut. Each person fight in character. We don't ignore on panel evidence because we want a character to fight in a fashion that doesn't show throughout this characters history.
Except when its off.
Originally posted by TheHulk
CISLess,BFR Is Off And This Fight Takes Place In The Arena In Planet Hulk.
Originally posted by Stoic
The Hulk has still hit the supposed unhittable though, and tagged a speeder right on the chin in the form of Sentry. This thread however borders on the ludicrous, because J'onn never ever fights the way that people are saying he does in this thread, J'onn has been hit consistently by character after character, without him being deemed as fighting a stupid fight. The guy simply is not invincible, and has never been portrayed in this light.
Originally posted by abhilegend
I know it can be furstrating but those feats are unadmissable. Intangibility and speed are not like strength which you can measure. Hulk hitting unhittable and grabbing energy and blah, blah, blah are all fine and dandy but the truth is hulk can't hit j'onn if he's phased. J'onn's phasing record against bricks is nearly flawless, its his record with energy attacks which is his downfall most of the time alongside CIS. His powerset is a ***** for most of the bricks though.
The problem here is that the Hulk is no more a simple brick than any energy user is. WB Hulk clearly shows that he has the ability to project energy in omni blast fashion. J'onn has to come out of his intangible state to land a punch, and the Hulk can bleed energy all day long.