CISless Surfer vs HP Doomsday

Originally posted by Galan007
You're making shit up entirely. Superman was NOT weakened, whatsoever. He received the amp because he NEEDED to be stronger than ever to have any chance at matching Doomsday's new evolutionary level. This was explicitly stated.

If you opt to make up your own story again, I'll report you for trolling.

Sorry. 😮

It's been 10+ yrs since I've read it and you could be right...I'm going to make sure though because I am about to relook at it all and if I am correct, I will post a scan.

Originally posted by Odekahn
/facepalm @ not acknowledging writer's more than obvious intentions.

Did Sentry actually fight Galactus to a standoff or was it just Spiderman who said it? If it's just Spiderman saying it and it happened off panel, did it ever really happen?

I think this is all fairly obvious. But I've got posters who honestly believe Doomsday's faster than Flash, people who deny that but still suggests he's far faster than Superman, people who deny even that and suggest Doomsday is only on par with Superman's combat superspeed and then people who won't even go so far as that and just want me to admit Hulk's outclassed in speed here.

Based on what? Character statemnents over on-panel measurable speed feats? Gimme a kit-kat break. It's hard enough keeping track over hjow everyone's falling over themselves on just how fast Doomsday is. It's much harder to deal with the false absolutes here that refuse categorically to read Death of Superman for what it is: a rerhash of Mindless Hulk vs the Avengers. A really iuninspired rehash.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
. TThe wirters' intentions are fairly obvious to me. Doomsday was a helluva lot faster and agile than he looked. Combine that with his massive strength and ruthlessness and you have Mindless Hulk rampaging the Avengers all over again. I don't think the writer wanted us to take Booster Gold's statement literally, I.e. He's faster than Flash. I don't think the writer meant for us to interpret a dying exhausted Superman bemoaning his inability to keep pace with the seemingly indefatiguable Doomsday as if Superman literally meant he had to surpass his peak nanosecond combat superspeeds. I don't think the writer meant for us to assume that because Doomsday surprised people with his speed, that Superman went into omgwtfbbq superspeed blitz mode throughout the entire fight (especially at the end).

I think this is all fairly obvious. But I've got posters who honestly believe Doomsday's faster than Flash, people who deny that but still suggests he's far faster than Superman, people who deny even that and suggest Doomsday is only on par with Superman's combat superspeed and then people who won't even go so far as that and just want me to admit Hulk's outclassed in speed here.

Based on what? Character statemnents over on-panel measurable speed feats? Gimme a kit-kat break. It's hard enough keeping track over hjow everyone's falling over themselves on just how fast Doomsday is. It's much harder to deal with the false absolutes here that refuse categorically to read Death of Superman for what it is: a rerhash of Mindless Hulk vs the Avengers. A really iuninspired rehash.

No one is taking it literal in the sense that they believe that he's actually faster than Flash, but the writer had Booster say it to get an idea of how fast Doomsday was attacking. It was happening faster than they could even think. What sense would it make for Booster to say such a thing if DD was only as fast as every other brick? The fact that his speed is mentioned multiple times throughout the story is there for a reason. This is why so many people acknowledge that he does indeed have super-speed. Not like Hulk, not like Thing, not like Juggernaut. It's an integrated part of the story.

Just because the artist didn't draw the conflict in the same way that we've seen Flash (or anyone speed blitz attacking, with trails fading off the arms/fists) doesn't make it any less a part of what happened.

You aren't seeing it because you don't want to see it. Because it might give Doomsday an edge on some of your beloved Marvel bricks. God forbid.

^ There are people on this forum who believe Doomsday is faster than Flash. There are people on this forum who think the only reason Doomsday doesn't rebuild a city in moments is because he lacks flight and heat vision. Don't even begin to try to tell me how all over the place KMC is on Doomsday's speed.

Doomsday isn't a special case. He's got character statements shared by other DC bricks and Marvel bricks. He doesn't have any measurable speed feats on-panel other than making n exhausted Superman force himself to keep up his speed while mustering his last bits of stamina to deliver blows strong enough to kill Doomsday.

Cap aint as quick as Quicksilver. And that statement and all the others made of Cap, don't vault him past other streets. Not people like Cassanadra Cain anyway who, to my knowledge, has never been compared to a speedster.

This upsets you? I don't care. General or Lobo smashin the crap out of Superman doesn't make me believe they're capable of macthing Flash, matching Superman, etc. no matter Superman's exclamations. Such exclamations are commonplace for bricks who have agility and speed that bely their size and strength. That you compare Hulk to Thing and Juggernaut betrays your own narrowminded preconceptions.

Seriously, get over it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ There are people on this forum who believe Doomsday is faster than Flash. There are people on this forum who think the only reason Doomsday doesn't rebuild a city in moments is because he lacks flight and heat vision. Don't even begin to try to tell me how all over the place KMC is on Doomsday's speed.

Doomsday isn't a special case. He's got character statements shared by other DC bricks and Marvel bricks. He doesn't have any measurable speed feats on-panel other than making n exhausted Superman force himself to keep up his speed while mustering his last bits of stamina to deliver blows strong enough to kill Doomsday.

Cap aint as quick as Quicksilver. And that statement and all the others made of Cap, don't vault him past other streets. Not people like Cassanadra Cain anyway who, to my knowledge, has never been compared to a speedster.

This upsets you? I don't care. General or Lobo smashin the crap out of Superman doesn't make me believe they're capable of macthing Flash, matching Superman, etc. no matter Superman's exclamations. Such exclamations are commonplace for bricks who have agility and speed that bely their size and strength. That you compare Hulk to Thing and Juggernaut betrays your own narrowminded preconceptions.

Seriously, get over it.

So what if other people on this forum have said that? This is here and now and I haven't seen anyone say that DD is faster than Flash here. So that's a moot point.

Also, a lot of Superman's bad guys DO have super speed/strength/reflexes because that's how they are able to even challenge him. And one panel of Superman saying that Lobo is too quick and strong while he is being pummeled is not the same as an entire league remarking repeatedly during a character's DEBUT about his speed.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
@leonidas I could cut and paste scans of Hulk for pretty much every single scene that Doomsday is in. I'm not taking Superman"s statements (which is what they remain) anymore seriously than I do for the ones he's given about Grundy, Mongul, Lobo or Darkseid.

You take character statements accompanied by the prototypical agile brick stomping through and busting teams over that of measurable speed feats? Your cup of tea.

not at all, actually. difference is i see him overwhelming kal with speed AS A FEAT. you for whatever reason think he's just bs'ing. and actually, i utterly defy you to show hulk doing to anyone what dd did in the scan i posted, let alone anyone with actual speed. you still compare him with hulk, but.....i still don't see speed feats that counter anything.

When you're done moving the goalposts,

i genuinely have no clue wtf you're talking about here. i do know the guy doing the accusing switched the discussion from speed to agility though.....

you can come back to the original premise that I found incredulous: Superman's statements -- ones he's expressed for multiple bricks -- don't vault Doomsday past Hulk's speed.

of course they don't. the feats themselves, the echoed statements by others, expressed repeatedly within and across arcs, however, do.

what i really don't get though is your unwillingness to simply accede to what has been repeatedly highlighted in virtually all of his battles--he has superspeed. what degree is a discussion that could certainly be wide ranging, but to simply toss out all all the references and examples just.....makes no sense to me. it's not like it's a one-off statement. it begins to seem like you have some nearly carver-esque agenda when you continually downplay/lowball/reinterpret what is pretty clear imo and most others. you've gone to a great deal of trouble to attempt to deconstruct the scans that have been shown. not sure why. but, your cup of tea. 🙂

After Reading all 12 pages I'm just 😑

There's just something odd happening in here

Anyway....

Originally posted by leonidas
not at all, actually. difference is i see him overwhelming kal with speed AS A FEAT. you for whatever reason think he's just bs'ing. and actually, i utterly defy you to show hulk doing to anyone what dd did in the scan i posted, let alone anyone with actual speed. you still compare him with hulk, but.....i still don't see speed feats that counter anything.

i genuinely have no clue wtf you're talking about here. i do know the guy doing the accusing switched the discussion from speed to agility though.....

Nott surprised. Overewhelmed Superman with speed. Are you kidding me? He overwhelmed him the way bricks overwhelm Supermen, with surprising speed, agility and maneuverability that belies their size. The one time Superman stated he was slowing down and had to keep up with the seemingly indefatiguable Doomsday was at the very end of the fight. At no point did anybody state Doomsday was faster than Superman before then (absent Booster Gold's garbage).

Originally posted by leonidas
of course they don't. the feats themselves, the echoed statements by others, expressed repeatedly within and across arcs, however, do.

what i really don't get though is your unwillingness to simply accede to what has been repeatedly highlighted in virtually all of his battles--he has superspeed. what degree is a discussion that could certainly be wide ranging, but to simply toss out all all the references and examples just.....makes no sense to me. it's not like it's a one-off statement. it begins to seem like you have some nearly carver-esque agenda when you continually downplay/lowball/reinterpret what is pretty clear imo and most others. you've gone to a great deal of trouble to attempt to deconstruct the scans that have been shown. not sure why. but, your cup of tea. 🙂

Doomsday has superspeed like Darkseid, Lobo, Hulk and Thor have superspeed. You've gone through a great deal to cover up the fact that all you have are character statements, flimsy reverse-projections to justify taking character statements to their literal limit, and nothing else. I know why. And while you are far more reasonable than the schnooks who argue that Doomsday is faster than Flash or Superman or Surfer, it's the same garbage based on the same character statements: Superman says he's fast, he must have superspeed.

Excuse me while I lol.

Superman was surprised by Deathstroke's speed once.

Originally posted by Odekahn
So what if other people on this forum have said that? This is here and now and I haven't seen anyone say that DD is faster than Flash here. So that's a moot point.

Also, a lot of Superman's bad guys DO have super speed/strength/reflexes because that's how they are able to even challenge him. And one panel of Superman saying that Lobo is too quick and strong while he is being pummeled is not the same as an entire league remarking repeatedly during a character's DEBUT about his speed.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what it is. The only reason people give credence to Booster's statements is because Superman made similar statements. So long as Superman fights a brick, his statements can be taken literally. Once that floodgate is open (as flimsy and hypocritical as it is), then everything suddenyl becomes imbued with Superman aura and can be taken literally or close to literally. Frankly speaking, Lobo has more impressive independent speed feats than Doomsday. And I can find random goons talking up his speed also.

But we're not talking about Lobo. We're talking about Doomsday being faster than Flash, Surfer, Superman and Hulk. And no matter how many people backhandedly ridicule each other, they refuse to believe that the common ground they share is character statements being taken literally. Character statements that are not unique to Doomsday, much less DC bricks. But please, by all means, tell me again how Superman's statement should be taken literally, or almost literally, because we know for a fact that Superman was operating at nanosecond superspeeds at the end of the fight. By all means, it's so clear to several of you, convince me.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Superman was surprised by Deathstroke's speed once.

Like I haven't riled up the natives enough.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not really.

Your description of Darkseid's actions resemble almost all surprisingly agile bricks. The only difference being, you assume that Superman is superspeeding around in a manner that makes it different from when other agile bricks do it to Superman analogues.

I'm not getting pulled into a conversation on the case for Darkseid's vaulted combat superspeed. It's almost flimsier than Doomsday's. And ironically, all of their cases are built in a circular manner that revolves back to the same underlying premise: if Superman says something, extrapolate out his character statement to the utmost limit because it's gospel, no measurable speed feats necessary. It's just different for Superman, because he's Superman.

I don't care for it. I really just don't. And my arguing with posters that Doomsday isn't faster than Surfer or Superman isn't as offensive as you're all making it out to be.

You're not actually arguing or debating though, or even making any solid points, you're just ignoring evidence. Page after page and example after example of it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What are you talking about?! "Overwhelming"? [b]Really? As I saw it, Superman was the one flinging him across countrysides, tackling through convenience stores, lifting him into the skies, and getting more than enough shots in. So don't start making this fight into something it's not. Superman was not fighting a superior speedster. If you're trying to call me out as if I don't have scans showing Hulk blitzing through multiple characters, characters floundering all over the place concerning Hulk's agility and ferocity and people standing dumbfounded at Hulk's speed, you've got another thing coming, pal.[/b]

lol

so, show me something comparable.

did you read the scan i posted? dd was said to be lightning fast and combined with his power supes couldn't gather himself to react or fight back. so, yeah, overwhelmed fits that bill perfectly. not to mention he's faced dd numerous times and referenced his speed numerous times. so he what--conveniently FORGETS how fast dd is everytime? or...dd really is fast.

Nott surprised. Overewhelmed Superman with speed. Are you kidding me? He overwhelmed him the way bricks overwhelm Supermen, with surprising speed, agility and maneuverability that belies their size. The one time Superman stated he was slowing down and had to keep up with the seemingly indefatiguable Doomsday was at the very end of the fight. At no point did anybody state Doomsday was faster than Superman before then (absent Booster Gold's garbage). They dospeak for themselves. It's the same crap Grundy, General, Lobo and Darkseid pull. Heck, it's what Thor and Hulk pull. Of course, the increasingly absent factor here is measurable speed feats.

of course. can't be your refusal to acknowledge the feats for what they actually are. lots easier to shove them under the rug of hyperbole than to take the repeated assertions as clear intent by the writer. makes sense. 😐

Doomsday has superspeed like Darkseid, Lobo, Hulk and Thor have superspeed. You've gone through a great deal to cover up the fact that all you have are character statements, flimsy reverse-projections to justify taking character statements to their literal limit, and nothing else. I know why. And while you are far more reasonable than the schnooks who argue that Doomsday is faster than Flash or Superman or Surfer, it's the same garbage based on the same character statements: Superman says he's fast, he must have superspeed.

i've not gone through any trouble at all to cover anything up. lol my stance was made crystal clear in my initial post and the scans are all here in this thread, you simply don't want to accept what has been clearly implied by them and instead choose to lump them into some weird hyperbolic mess. and the thing you continually harp on--the dreaded statements--are all made in relation to a performed FEAT! it's not as though the statements are made in a vaccuum ffs. you just don't like the feats. i'd agree with you were it only brought up the one time. the reiteration across arcs though paints a clear picture. at no point did i say dd is as fast as clark--in fact there is clear evidence to the contrary. not being as fast as supes doesn't mean he doesn't have superspeed, nor does it mean he's relegated to the speed of the hulk. thor at least HAS some superspeed feats, so if you want to lump him in there, fine. lobo likewise. BOTH are a lot faster than hulk imo, if we look at specific feats (for a different thread).

Excuse me while I lol.

gotta admit, i've had a good laugh at your stance in this thread too.

lol

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Superman was surprised by Deathstroke's speed once.
[/img]

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
uhuh

Like I haven't riled up the natives enough.

i'm not participating in this thread lol, but DOS was based off of hulk #300

Originally posted by Juntai
Riled up? I was amused at much you've taken after Carver and Quan after debating with them for so long. Nothing more.

Lets not bring up my name when your fail attempt at proving my scan was wrong was just that, a failed attempt. You claiming that since Superman has flown through space at tremendous speed, that takes away from Superman during that time admitting he can't achieve light speed. I could easily post Vulcan achieving ftl speed via space but failing to catch a sniper bullet (was saved by Gladiator) or whoever else that has done tue same, achieve light speed via space but during a combat situation against Quick Silver, they get blitzed, and blitzed, and blitzed. Your lame argument doeant take away from what Superman clearly said and needed help achieving during my scan.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i'm not participating in this thread lol, but DOS was based off of hulk #300

I was wondering when someone was going to post this. I'm wondering if One Dumb will post the scan where Hulk bust through all of the Avengers before they had the chance to react.?

Carver and ODG agreeing on the same point...

Too... Much... Trolling... 🙁