CISless Surfer vs HP Doomsday

Started by Juntai35 pages

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'll assume you're dropping this avenue and being not serious. So Ill be polite enough to leave it be as it was not helping your case in any manner. Like leonidas said, actually overwhelming someone with his speed instead of simply surprising them. That is a very large distinction.

I also note that you have backhandedly dismissed my offer to show you where Superman was slowing down in Death of Superman. My guess is, you remember the scenes I referred to demonstrating thus. So, no, I won't press you into proving that Superman was going zoomzoom the entire fight, especially at the end. It's entirely obvious he wasn't.

The first part wasn't my debate anyways, I was telling you what the circumstance was and pointing out how he's trolling you with your own lame tactics. The idea Doomsday was pulling punches is the ridiculous one, when it's completely out of character. Booster simply wasn't meant to die in the issue. He was fodder to show you the threat, as they all were.

I like how you completely ignored what I wrote though:
even if slower than normal from a beating, Superman at the bottom of his power, is still too fast for other powered people to even react to when he means to be[and clearly capable of zoomzooming], and Doomsday by comparison was still going fast enough to make him push his limits of speed.

You're also continuing to ignore the idea throughout the entire story, the writer kept telling it straight to the reader, though claims, thought bubbles, or whatever, of the incredible speed Doomsday was fighting at. Context and intent.

Because you know, if we absolutely ignore example after example, scan after scan, context, intent, and everything in the thread.. you might be right...or.. you might be OneDumbGo in a nutshell.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
#1 I'm asking you if it's impossible that Superman was so exhausted that he wasn't anywhere near nanosecond speeds (like you've been implying) and thus had to kick up his speed substantially up to the surprisingly still agile Doomsday.
You're so incredibly idiotic, that you can't even bring yourself to say the "surprisingly fast Doomsday" eventough Superman flat-out said that he had to match Doomsday's speed. You have absolutely no proof that Superman's speed was so significantly hindered, that he went from nanosecond level to Hulk level of superspeed. In fact, the comic specifically portrays Superman in those same moments as performing infinitely higher than he had prior to that state, finally hurting Doomsday and eventually beating him to death.

I'm going to ask you one more time, are you going to support your stance written here:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You and I both know full well that all of Doomsday's incarnations have exhibited nothing beyond what Hulk has.

Was Superman's upper speed limit downgraded from nanosecond to Hulk level?

Originally posted by carver9
Lolololol...was he weakened before receiving the amp, yes or no?
No. He was not.

The only reason Supes received the amp is because Doomsday had become more powerful than he was when Supes first faced him--therefore Supes had to become more powerful as well, in an effort to catch up to DD's next level of evolution (*enter Mother Box upgrade*):

Originally posted by PhilosophÃ_a
You're so incredibly idiotic, that you can't even bring yourself to say the "surprisingly fast Doomsday" eventough Superman flat-out said that he had to match Doomsday's speed. You have absolutely no proof that Superman's speed was so significantly hindered, that he went from nanosecond level to Hulk level of superspeed. In fact, the comic specifically portrays Superman in those same moments as performing infinitely higher than he had prior to that state, finally hurting Doomsday and eventually beating him to death.

I'm going to ask you one more time, are you going to support your stance written here:

Was Superman's upper speed limit downgraded from [b]nanosecond to Hulk level? [/B]

An exhausted near-dead Superman who just before was so drained he couldn't even fly away from falling debris much to the quizzical dismay of Guardian and couldn't fly a helicopter away far enough fast enough and couldn't pull innocents out of fire and having to resort to simply shielding them. Do I need to post these god damn scans?

I wasn't even trying to definitively prove that Superman was operating at slower speeds. Just questioning how literally you have to take Superman's statement as if he was already operating at peak nanosecond superspeed conditions. Enough with the rampant goalpost moving here. Your escalating tensions betray you. And it's obvious.

Originally posted by Juntai
The first part wasn't my debate anyways, I was telling you what the circumstance was and pointing out how he's trolling you with your own lame tactics. The idea Doomsday was pulling punches is the ridiculous one, when it's completely out of character. Booster simply wasn't meant to die in the issue. He was fodder to show you the threat, as they all were.
I know it wasn't. It was someone else's stupid and completely ironic argument. If you do want to adopt and keep pressing that Doomsday never pulled his punches or his speed, by all means. Superman-level and Flash-level+ Booster Gold sounds too awesome to ignore.
Originally posted by Juntai
I like how you completely ignored what I wrote though:
even if slower than normal from a beating, Superman at the bottom of his power, is still too fast for other powered people to even react to when he means to be[and clearly capable of zoomzooming], and Doomsday by comparison was still going fast enough to make him push his limits of speed.

You're also continuing to ignore the idea throughout the entire story, the writer kept telling it straight to the reader, though claims, thought bubbles, or whatever, of the incredible speed Doomsday was fighting at. Context and intent.

Because you know, if we absolutely ignore example after example, scan after scan, context, intent, and everything in the thread.. you might be right...or.. you might be OneDumbGo in a nutshell.

The context is this: Superman never said he had to push his speed until the end, where he already demonstrated a near-death exhaustion and proved to be too slow to even save himself from further damage. Guy Gardner, Superman and Maxima all expressed surprise at his speed an his agility. Booster Gold's dubious statement is the best thing you've got and we already agree taking it literally is retarded.

All I'm poking at is everyone's abject refusal to believe that Superman wasn't operating at peak nanosecond combat superspeeds throughout the fight (especially at the end). It's completely obvious to me, frankly. Especially at the very end of the fight when he's near death. Now I have to deal with people moving the goalposts and red herrings onto Doomsday puling punches, Superman can still go zoomzoom when exhausted, specifically quantify how fast Doomsday was going at that time. FFS, all this over character statements that can easily be read several different ways other than literal and stretched to their utmost limits.

^Not to mention that he still had the kryptonite-x amp.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ An exhausted near-dead Superman who just before was so drained he couldn't even fly away from falling debris much to the quizzical dismay of Guardian and couldn't fly a helicopter away far enough fast enough and couldn't pull innocents out of fire and having to resort to simply shielding them. Do I need to post these god damn scans?

I wasn't even trying to definitively prove that Superman was operating at slower speeds. Just questioning how literally you have to take Superman's statement as if he was already operating at peak nanosecond superspeed conditions. Enough with the rampant goalpost moving here. Your escalating tensions betray you. And it's obvious.

Directed @ Phil, I presume?

Originally posted by Galan007
No. He was not.

The only reason Supes received the amp is because Doomsday had become more powerful than he was when Supes first faced him--therefore, Supes had to become more powerful as well (*enter Mother Box upgrade*):

Galan...he was weakened...very weak and would have died in a panel if he faced Doomsday without those amps. It's pretty obvious it took him back to his previous power level and from his appearance durability wise, how easily Doomsday was able to hurt him, its debatable if it even took him back to his original power levels if you base it off of their previous and battles after that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Directed @ Phil, I presume?
Stop typing so fast. uhuh

Originally posted by carver9
Galan...he was weakened...very weak and would have died in a panel if he faced Doomsday without those amps. It's pretty obvious it took him back to his previous power level and from his appearance durability wise, how easily Doomsday was able to hurt him, its debatable if it even took him back to his original power levels if you base it off of their previous and battles after that.
Originally posted by abhilegend

Originally posted by carver9
Galan...he was weakened...very weak and would have died in a panel if he faced Doomsday without those amps. It's pretty obvious it took him back to his previous power level and from his appearance durability wise, how easily Doomsday was able to hurt him, its debatable if it even took him back to his original power levels if you base it off of their previous and battles after that.
You're making shit up entirely. Superman was NOT weakened, whatsoever. He received the amp because he NEEDED to be stronger than ever to have any chance at matching Doomsday's new evolutionary level. This was explicitly stated.

If you opt to make up your own story again, I'll report you for trolling.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Stop typing so fast. uhuh
Sorry. 😮

Originally posted by Galan007
You're making shit up entirely.

Carver? No way...

Originally posted by Galan007
You're making shit up entirely. Superman was NOT weakened, whatsoever. He received the amp because he NEEDED to be stronger than ever to have any chance at matching Doomsday's new evolutionary level. This was explicitly stated.

If you opt to make up your own story again, I'll report you for trolling.

Sorry. 😮


Yup, that's our dear ole carver.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

All I'm poking at is everyone's abject refusal to believe that Superman wasn't operating at peak nanosecond combat superspeeds throughout the fight (especially at the end). It's completely obvious to me, frankly. Especially at the very end of the fight when he's near death. Now I have to deal with people moving the goalposts and red herrings onto Doomsday puling punches, Superman can still go zoomzoom when exhausted, specifically quantify how fast Doomsday was going at that time. FFS, all this over character statements that can easily be read several different ways other than literal and stretched to their utmost limits.
No, you're trying to knock down Doomsday into being a grey Hulk with bones sticking out of him, and he's not. And you're doing so in the most blatant ignoring of everything being posted that I've seen this side of Carver and Quan.

Another example;
How fast would you say Darkseid's reactions are?
He's fast enough to punch, slap, kick, eyebeam and snatch full powered superspeed superman out of the air, right? He's done so many times.

How did Doomsday, crawl out of the ground, rush across a length of field, and completely and utterly curbstomp him before he can even whip his head around possible without any reasonable superspeed?

Or do you believe Hulk is that fast[AGILE, lol] too?

Originally posted by carver9
Galan...he was weakened...very weak and would have died in a panel if he faced Doomsday without those amps. It's pretty obvious it took him back to his previous power level and from his appearance durability wise, how easily Doomsday was able to hurt him, its debatable if it even took him back to his original power levels if you base it off of their previous and battles after that.

👇 Come on Carver do you even own the comic you are talking about? I haven't read Hunter in years (thats why I'm not getting into all this right now) and know you're story is wrong... Almost 'HUMAN' Superman was??? Right...

Originally posted by Juntai
No, you're trying to knock down Doomsday into being a grey Hulk with bones sticking out of him, and he's not. And you're doing so in the most blatant ignoring of everything being posted that I've seen this side of Carver and Quan.

Another example;
How fast would you say Darkseid's reactions are?
He's fast enough to punch, slap, kick, eyebeam and snatch full powered superspeed superman out of the air, right? He's done so many times.

How did Doomsday, crawl out of the ground, rush across a length of field, and completely and utterly curbstomp him before he can even whip his head around possible without any reasonable superspeed?

Or do you believe Hulk is that fast[AGILE, lol] too?

Not really.

Your description of Darkseid's actions resemble almost all surprisingly agile bricks. The only difference being, you assume that Superman is superspeeding around in a manner that makes it different from when other agile bricks do it to Superman analogues.

I'm not getting pulled into a conversation on the case for Darkseid's vaulted combat superspeed. It's almost flimsier than Doomsday's. And ironically, all of their cases are built in a circular manner that revolves back to the same underlying premise: if Superman says something, extrapolate out his character statement to the utmost limit because it's gospel, no measurable speed feats necessary. It's just different for Superman, because he's Superman.

I don't care for it. I really just don't. And my arguing with posters that Doomsday isn't faster than Surfer or Superman isn't as offensive as you're all making it out to be.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're trying to convince me that Doomsday having superspeed shouldn't be surprising since he has Kryptonian origins and that comparing Hulk's agility to Doomsday's is ridiculous. If you're not, then I don't care what you think. I think those two premises are laughable. Completely laughable.

first off, expressing my opinion on his speed and giving reasons why i believe such=/=me trying to convince you of anything. at all. 😐

you've made clear your opinion, you've been clear about how entrenched in your opinion you can become so why in hell would i bother? 😂

the fact that you think hulk is as fast (and i'm amused how you switched from speed to 'agility' btw--never heard anyone mention dd's 'agility', but sure see a lot of references to speed....) is what is laughable, and the idea that you are now equating his speed to hulk's 'agility' is also laughably transparent and indicates you've really not been able to find anything as regards to hulk's speed. at least nothing that will support your side. also laughable how you've really done nothing at all to support the fact that hulk is as fast. you've knocked and downplayed every dd scan, but......what have you countered it with? anything? hmm, coincedence?

and you do like to cling to tangents, eh? for the second time, the kryptonian origins are simply one more piece of data, and a pretty insignificant one. toss it out--i don't give a sh!t.

Yes, Speedfreak was zooming around Professor Hulk. And then Professor Hulk started dodging him and Speedfreak exclaimed how Hulk couldn't dodge him forever. Which is right about when Hulk ended the fight anyway. Guy Gardner. Booster Gold. Who else?

superman. multiple times. 😐

No, nobody's stated Hulk is as fast as Quicksilver. People have sad Captain America is as fast as Quicksilver though. No sh1t. Show me where you can completely and utterly divorce characters' exclamations from the fact that Doomsday surprised people with his speed. That is a very large distinction.

So, yeah. [/B]

here, since you didn't see it the first time: show me hulk's speed overwhelming a legit speedster or someone with superspeed. not surprising them. not startling them. i mean show me him using his speed to overwhelm someone.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2/24823/598031-superspeed_super.jpg

you'll wave it off, or find a way to downplay it. again, the aurthor's intentions are crystal clear imo.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman was weakened to the point that he was nearly human before receiving that amp. If anything, that amp took him back to his true power level.
😐

facepalm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not really.

Your description of Darkseid's actions resemble almost all surprisingly agile bricks. The only difference being, you assume that Superman is superspeeding around in a manner that makes it different from when other agile bricks do it to Superman analogues.

I'm not getting pulled into a conversation on the case for Darkseid's vaulted combat superspeed. It's almost flimsier than Doomsday's. And ironically, all of their cases are built in a circular manner that revolves back to the same underlying premise: if Superman says something, extrapolate out his character statement to the utmost limit because it's gospel, no measurable speed feats necessary. It's just different for Superman, because he's Superman.

I don't care for it. I really just don't. And my arguing with posters that Doomsday isn't faster than Surfer or Superman isn't as offensive as you're all making it out to be.

/facepalm @ not acknowledging writer's more than obvious intentions.

Did Sentry actually fight Galactus to a standoff or was it just Spiderman who said it? If it's just Spiderman saying it and it happened off panel, did it ever really happen?

Originally posted by Juntai
By the very idea that the writer keeps cramming down our throats as he's closer comparable to true speedsters?[Flash, or Superman pushing himself.] Regardless if he is directly as fast as Flash or not, the constant comparison shows the intent isn't an agile Hulklike Brute.

Got proof that Superman suddenly can't fly, run or fight fast after being beaten up?

Because I've got scans of Superman vs The Elite that suggest otherwise.

I don't understand the point here... Because superman has been weakened and still moved fast.. means he can't be weakened and not move fast? I don't think so anyways.

@leonidas I could cut and paste scans of Hulk for pretty much every single scene that Doomsday is in. I'm not taking Superman"s statements (which is what they remain) anymore seriously than I do for the ones he's given about Grundy, Mongul, Lobo or Darkseid.

You take character statements accompanied by the prototypical agile brick stomping through and busting teams over that of measurable speed feats? Your cup of tea.

When you're done moving the goalposts, you can come back to the original premise that I found incredulous: Superman's statements -- ones he's expressed for multiple bricks -- don't vault Doomsday past Hulk's speed. Not when character statements are all that's there. The Kryptnoinan toirigin tangent is where it belongs: the toilet.

Believe tha