CISless Surfer vs HP Doomsday

Originally posted by Galan007
I assume you're referring to their fight toward the end? Heh, Superman still failed to so much as knock Doomsday down, and was owned with a single punch. Prior to that, DD gave Supes [arguably] the worst non-lethal beating of his career.

Good man. 👆

For a second, I was worried you were stupid.

The only reason I went to these lengths with this delta fellow is because he's completely ignoring Doomsday had a gl ring in the very issue he keeps using as evidence.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Superman still fared far better than he did in HP.

I know I am in the minority but I feel Superman still has the power to kill Doomsday.

Superman didn't have anywhere near enough power to kill H/P (or DD Wars) Doomsday. That was made pretty clear. But hey, if that's what you believe, then so be it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The only reason I went to these lengths with this delta fellow is because he's completely ignoring Doomsday had a gl ring in the very issue he keeps using as evidence.

Originally posted by Galan007
No he didn't. DD Wars Doomsday owned Superman (as well as a very powerful Justice League) with a ridiculous amount of ease.

Superman didn't have anywhere near enough power to kill H/P (or DD Wars) Doomsday. That was made pretty clear. But hey, if that's what you believe, then so be it.

He did have a GL ring, and was likely using it to some extent against the thousands of Lanterns he owned. I agree with you there.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't feel he owned him with anywhere near the ease in which HP Dd was owning Superman.

Originally posted by Galan007
DD Wars Doomsday wrecks Superman:

Originally posted by Galan007
Wrecks Superman on a different occasion:

Hmmm, the idea H/P DD was purely undefeatable. Recall what we see is Doomsday didn't end with Superman, Darkseid and Cyborg teaming up to finally beat him... he was beyond them all to the point there was ZERO hope even for them. They had to plot device sent him at the end of time because nothing else was working. Even if he was temporary affected by an attack he would adapt to it on the spot and instantly regenerate any dammage. Adding DoS DD on top of it, a guy who was swatting the JLA and pushed Superman beyond his limit is an overkill.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Superman still fared far better than he did in HP. I know I am in the minority but I feel Superman still has the power to kill Doomsday.

The only reason I went to these lengths with this delta fellow is because he's completely ignoring Doomsday had a gl ring in the very issue he keeps using as evidence.

Originally posted by Galan007

Originally posted by Cogito
Hold up.

I haven't read this thread, and it's not one I care to get involved in. But I did catch this post, and I'm not sure what you're saying here.

What exactly do you think that panel shows Imperiex doing to DD?

Originally posted by Cogito
Question bump

Originally posted by psycho gundam
hulk vs superman to a tee, though hulk would succeed in tearing superman's head off 😄

Originally posted by quanchi112
You using 40 year old scans to pretend tear gas is still as relevant today as it was back then isn't a case.

ugh You really think you have a valid argument? Your comparison is that Superman is just as vulnerable to physical force because he can be KOed with sufficient force. Your argument is both Superman and Hulk have increased a lot in power. One of your points was Hulk tanking a nuke. Well, I saw Hulk endure 4 nuclear explosions, and it looked to be around the same time as Hulk being downed(and reverted to Banner) because cops threw tear gas at him. So, unless you're claiming that tear gas>nuclear explosions, you must concede that Hulk is disproportionately weak to gas. I love how you can't answer a relatively simple question. Are you arguing tear gas>nukes?

Originally posted by quanchi112
My post always had to do with Doomsday being a threat due to his powers coupled with the ring. You want to ignore that, entirely. DD was still ko'd. That's a forum loss so who cares if he wasn't killed. DOS Superman killed him after this minus the ring. 🙂

No, I'm not ignoring it. I just don't feel it was a factor against the Guardian. Due to, ya know, them being masters of the very energy that the Power Rings have. But even if you were right here, you're missing another part completely, which I'll get to right below.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, when the ring was destroyed he was ko'd aka he lost.

So, you're admitting he had no protection when he was hit with a force that ripped a hole in space? It's irrelevant that he was KOed, that's a very potent blast, and he survived it. I see you're arguing that it didn't destroy the planet. So that means it wasn't all that powerful even though it ripped a hole in space? Plus, as Galan has pointed-out, this was a far weaker version of Doomsday. I had assumed you were intelligent enough to get my point without my spelling it out for you. I apologize for my mistake. 😄

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor can easily rip a hole in space/time so why is this impressive to you ?

Where has Thor actually done this? And I dunno, I thought ripping a hole in space/time was kinda a big deal.

Originally posted by quanchi112
DOS Superman killed DD with force.

Yep. Too bad Surfer isn't facing DOS Doomsday.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I love how you honestly think it was just a pure force attack. His bacteria was expunged.

It looks like Cogito is the only other one who noticed this. um Where does it actually say that Doomsday's bacteria was expunged? It's quite clear that Imperiex Prime sees Doomsday as bacteria, not that he literally expunged the bacteria from Doomsday. "...so let THIS be the ultimate LESSON. The NATURAL ORDER will ALWAYS prevail. All BACTERIA can be expunged. I live BEYOND your perceptions. I AM the natural order. Once again...BACTERIA..."

Did it ever occur to you that it seemed strange that expunging the bacteria from Doomsday would turn him into a smoldering skeleton? Unless there's some comic I haven't read that said Doomsday's powered by bacteria?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You already said the Surfer wins so it's pointless to try and convince you. You already agree with me about the outcome.

The outcome? Yes. The way to it? Nope. You think Surfer can kill Doomsday. I completely disagree. Only way I see Surfer winning is BFRing Doomsday. And the only reason I even agree Surfer gets the majority is because CIS is off. Otherwise I don't see Surfer resorting to it quickly or often enough.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They had a week long battle in which he didn't adapt to him. That level of force needed to be surpassed to destroy him in hp and since it wasn't it failed. That's all. It was just a pure force attack.

So are you conceding you were wrong that Radiant used a pure force attack? And him not adapting is irrelevant, Galan pointed-out all the other examples of Doomsday adapting during HUNTER/PREY, including against Waverider's energy.

Originally posted by quanchi112

You misunderstood what the dialogue meant. The dialogue made it clear spending too much time there would kill them all hence Superman and Waverider leaving. The writer didn't contradict anything. You not comprehending basic english isn't my problem. You trying to twist around simple sentences isn't my problem.

Nope, I didn't misunderstand the dialogue. I poorly presented what I meant. They were surviving the "gravity, opposing forces." Was f-ing 'em up, but they were still alive.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Waverider says he can stave off the effects for a few seconds and they make it clear this is DD's [B]end.[/B]

Yes, and they were still alive before Waverider got there. As for it being Doomsday's end.....

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=hacsahunter-prey-03-44.jpg

Kinda hard to survive the very destruction of time it's self.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In the scan I posted above when he killed DD. Yes, DD wasn't kiled by a specific attack he just wasn't strong enough to survive something that destroyed 1/5 of a planet. Surfer can destroy entire planets while holding back. 😂 Expunging bacteria isn't a difficult attack for the power cosmic. Sorry.

Except, you completely misunderstood the dialogue Imperiex Prime was using. Unless you can provide a scan stating that Doomsday is powered by bacteria?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Radiant wasn't stronger than DD. Thor's power greatly exceeds radiant's. I also never said Surfer was stronger but he is more powerful just like Thor.

Well, we don't really know how powerful Radiant was. But that's not important. And so what about overall power? Thor being more powerful overall than Doomsday is irrelevant. Thor has KOed Surfer. Doomsday is stronger than Thor. That was the point I was making when I asked why it matters about Thor's overall power. Unless you think Thor is stronger than Doomsday?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Teehee.

You giggling like a Japanophile schoolgirl is kinda disturbing.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Name a brick he does badly against since Hulk is the premiere brick in all of comicdom.

He's been KOed by Thor, was KOed(I think later retconned to "stunned"😉 by Thing, and other examples I've seen of characters I'm unfamiliar with, but were clearly bricks. Then, there's also this.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8392/silversurfer197001810tm5.jpg

😄

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you weren't arguing that then you concede. I accept.

No, I don't concede. You're wrong. Doomsday developing teleportation is a possibility. It'd be a cheesy argument for me to say, "Well Surfer pretty much can't win, his only chance is BFR, and Doomsday can adapt teleportation to deal with that" but it is a possibility.

Originally posted by Odekahn
I've already stated this to you, but since you've chosen to ignore it, I'll say it again. On the panel that you linked is where I pulled my quote from. It's said in present tense. Superman does indeed fly at Doomsday and hit him, but the fighting is also still taking place there.

If it was a blur that was just flying by, it would have been a nanosecond. Before the guy even finished saying "I" they would have been gone. The fight continued and at a speed that appeared as a blur.

Are you trying to rule out that the onlookers only saw a blur of Superman/Doomsday as a result of how fast Superman was flying? You've offered no justification to do so. And I think it's ridiculous that I'm being asked to prove that they were not moving at blurring speeds whereby onlookers couldn't see them (and not because of straight-line flying speed). That's essentially proving a negative where you guys are the ones trying to assert varying levels of superspeed, e.g., Flash-level, Superman-level, Surfer-level, Hulk++++ level. Shifting the burden of proof on me isn't a winning strategy.

Particularly when I can actually make a strong argument and prove the negative. The Metropolis SCU who were attacking Doomsday had no issue finding their aim and targeting Doomsday successfully here, or here, or here, or here:

The one time the Metropolis SCU characters stated they had trouble targeting Doomsday? Superman is once again flying Doomsday through walls at high traveling speeds:

Trying to force these types of examples of Superman's traveling speed down our throats that they represent Doomsday's combat superspeed is horrendous. Superman's traveling speed =/= Doomsday's combat superspeed. And I'm tired of proving the negative -- especially when we're talking character statements!

They weren't having a race, they were fighting. Just because The on-lookers could see their location, doesn't mean that the actual exchange between them wasn't at superspeed.

Pertaining to actual combat superspeed, Superman specifically states that he has a hard time matching it, which is consistent with everything that has been shown throughout that arc.

Even you shouldn't be in this much denial.

Originally posted by Delta1938
It looks like Cogito is the only other one who noticed this. um Where does it actually say that Doomsday's bacteria was expunged? It's quite clear that Imperiex Prime sees Doomsday as bacteria, not that he literally expunged the bacteria from Doomsday. "...so let THIS be the ultimate LESSON. The NATURAL ORDER will ALWAYS prevail. All BACTERIA can be expunged. I live BEYOND your perceptions. I AM the natural order. Once again...BACTERIA..."

Did it ever occur to you that it seemed strange that expunging the bacteria from Doomsday would turn him into a smoldering skeleton? Unless there's some comic I haven't read that said Doomsday's powered by bacteria?

Hey, that was my point

sneer

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree that scan in no way supports dd's speed. as far as taking this off-thread open a new one and we can continue in whatever direction you'd like. i'd open one but i'm not completely clear what you're thinking about. we could hulk' speed vs dd's or open a thread in the discussion forum or just a vs thread comparing the speeds of all of the people involved--thor, hulk, lobo and dd. that might be fun and interesting.

i'm good with whatever.

Could you interpret these character statements as matter-of-fact measurements that each of these characters is, indeed, faster than Superman's top combat superspeed? Yes. But you'd have to assume that Superman was, in fact, fighting at his top superspeeds (which based on his best feats was nanosecond). Because if he's not, then Superman could very well just as likely be talking about a relative measurement of how fast each of those characters are compared to his initial underestimation and unpreparedness. The usual "Hulk-speed-belies-his-size-and-power" schtick.

I believe the burden is fairly and squarely on people to prove that Superman was actually referencing top superspeeds, i.e., his own compared to this new opponent. Because the safe bet is, that he's just talking about his damned surprise at how fast he's moving compared to their size and power. And that's not an unreasonable assumption.

Moreso, when Superman is, based on independent feats, almost assuredly faster than each of these foes. And even moreso, when other encounters reveal that Superman used his superior speed against each of these foes:

So my honest question is this: you really expect me to take Superman's statement to their utmost literal limit and NOT with a grain of salt? Based on Superman's superbrick foes in the past and how he's commented on their (surprising) speed accompanying him being romped, I will take them with a clear grain of salt. #1 Because Superman's clearly got far superior independent superspeed feats. #2 Because ofttimes, Superman actually proves his outright superior speed against those same foes.

Now am I trying to say that Darkseid, Lobo and General are relatively superslow bricks that couldn't possibly match Superman? Absolutely not. They obviously are fast enough to give Superman a fight. But the common ground is that their size and power belies their shocking speed, making that a deadly combination for Superman to deal with. But when you're that big and powerful, you don't need Flash-level speed, or Superman-level speed. You apparently need Hulk-level speed. If Hulk and Superman fought in a canon fight, Superman would likely say the same sh1t, and likely have the same trouble.

And if that notion REALLY offends Superman fans, well let me sh1t in your cereal with aplomb:

Originally posted by Philosophía
They weren't having a race, they were fighting. Just because The on-lookers could see their location, doesn't mean that the actual exchange between them wasn't at superspeed.

Pertaining to actual combat superspeed, Superman specifically states that he has a hard time matching it, which is consistent with everything that has been shown throughout that arc.

Even you shouldn't be in this much denial.

Superman stated at the very end, where he was already near death and had experienced a slowdown, that he needed to up his speed. Up his speed from human speed? Supersonic speed? Nanosecond speed? Do you know? More importantly, can you prove what speed? No, you don't and no, you can't. The same honest query thrown at Thorbags and Gammatards, "Just how fast were they exactly fighting at the time?" applies here. And that doesn't change just because it's Superman, particularly a near-dead Superman.

Take your double-standards elsewhere. I know you don't give other superbricks the benefit of the doubt when facing Superman-archetypes. Don't expect me to not call you out just because this superbrick wrecked Superman. Not the first time, champ.

The bottom-line that we should be agreeing on here though is this: Being tackled in a straight line by a flyer flying at superspeeds isn't proof that the "tacklee" is fighting at superspeeds. That I even have to explain this is insulting.

Originally posted by Galan007
I couldn't disagree more. Imo, DD Wars Doomsday owned Superman even easier then he did during H/P...

Here's regular DD against Superman.

The way he's casually beat is nowhere near the level of difficulty it took in hp. The reason DD was so formidable in this arc was combining Brainiac's intelligence into his body.

Originally posted by lilshogun
Hmmm, the idea H/P DD was purely undefeatable. Recall what we see is Doomsday didn't end with Superman, Darkseid and Cyborg teaming up to finally beat him... he was beyond them all to the point there was ZERO hope even for them. They had to plot device sent him at the end of time because nothing else was working. Even if he was temporary affected by an attack he would adapt to it on the spot and instantly regenerate any dammage. Adding DoS DD on top of it, a guy who was swatting the JLA and pushed Superman beyond his limit is an overkill.

Originally posted by Cogito

Originally posted by Delta1938
ugh You really think you have a valid argument? Your comparison is that Superman is just as vulnerable to physical force because he can be KOed with sufficient force. Your argument is both Superman and Hulk have increased a lot in power. One of your points was Hulk tanking a nuke. Well, I saw Hulk endure 4 nuclear explosions, and it looked to be around the same time as Hulk being downed(and reverted to Banner) because cops threw tear gas at him. So, unless you're claiming that tear gas>nuclear explosions, you must concede that Hulk is disproportionately weak to gas. I love how you can't answer a relatively simple question. Are you arguing tear gas>nukes?

No, I'm not ignoring it. I just don't feel it was a factor against the Guardian. Due to, ya know, them being masters of the very energy that the Power Rings have. But even if you were right here, you're missing another part completely, which I'll get to right below.[/B]

So, you're admitting he had no protection when he was hit with a force that ripped a hole in space? It's irrelevant that he was KOed, that's a very potent blast, and he survived it. I see you're arguing that it didn't destroy the planet. So that means it wasn't all that powerful even though it ripped a hole in space? Plus, as Galan has pointed-out, this was a far weaker version of Doomsday. I had assumed you were intelligent enough to get my point without my spelling it out for you. I apologize for my mistake. 😄
[/B]

I also assumed you were intelligent enough to comprehend that DD died in hp. Just because it didn't happen on panel doesn't gve you the right to purposely misinterpret the scene because you want to pretend.

Where has Thor actually done this? And I dunno, I thought ripping a hole in space/time was kinda a big deal.[/B]

Yep. Too bad Surfer isn't facing DOS Doomsday.[/B]

It looks like Cogito is the only other one who noticed this. um Where does it actually say that Doomsday's bacteria was expunged? It's quite clear that Imperiex Prime sees Doomsday as bacteria, not that he literally expunged the bacteria from Doomsday. "...so let THIS be the ultimate LESSON. The NATURAL ORDER will ALWAYS prevail. All BACTERIA can be expunged. I live BEYOND your perceptions. I AM the natural order. Once again...BACTERIA..."[/B]

Did it ever occur to you that it seemed strange that expunging the bacteria from Doomsday would turn him into a smoldering skeleton? Unless there's some comic I haven't read that said Doomsday's powered by bacteria?
[/B]

The outcome? Yes. The way to it? Nope. You think Surfer can kill Doomsday. I completely disagree. Only way I see Surfer winning is BFRing Doomsday. And the only reason I even agree Surfer gets the majority is because CIS is off. Otherwise I don't see Surfer resorting to it quickly or often enough.[/B]

So are you conceding you were wrong that Radiant used a pure force attack? And him not adapting is irrelevant, Galan pointed-out all the other examples of Doomsday adapting during HUNTER/PREY, including against Waverider's energy.[/B]

Nope, I didn't misunderstand the dialogue. I poorly presented what I meant. They were surviving the "gravity, opposing forces." Was f-ing 'em up, but they were still alive.

Yes, and they were still alive before Waverider got there. As for it being Doomsday's end.....

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view&current=hacsahunter-prey-03-44.jpg

Kinda hard to survive the very destruction of time it's self.[/B]

Except, you completely misunderstood the dialogue Imperiex Prime was using. Unless you can provide a scan stating that Doomsday is powered by bacteria?
[/B]

Well, we don't really know how powerful Radiant was. But that's not important. And so what about overall power? Thor being more powerful overall than Doomsday is irrelevant. Thor has KOed Surfer. Doomsday is stronger than Thor. That was the point I was making when I asked why it matters about Thor's overall power. Unless you think Thor is stronger than Doomsday?
[/B]

You giggling like a Japanophile schoolgirl is kinda disturbing.[/B]

He's been KOed by Thor, was KOed(I think later retconned to "stunned"😉 by Thing, and other examples I've seen of characters I'm unfamiliar with, but were clearly bricks. Then, there's also this.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8392/silversurfer197001810tm5.jpg

😄
[/B]

No, I don't concede. You're wrong. Doomsday developing teleportation is a possibility. It'd be a cheesy argument for me to say, "Well Surfer pretty much can't win, his only chance is BFR, and Doomsday can adapt teleportation to deal with that" but it is a possibility. [/B]

The battle between Superman vs Doomsday. It's just a question of Stamina, force and power. Silver Surfer given with his 100 array of feats. He can make this a very interesting fight.

Quan is in here owning.