Originally posted by Blight
First off. Hulk totally does not suck.... he has certain Sucky writers.Doomsday sucks now... frankly, I've never found him that cool. That doesn't deny how powerful he is... at all.
I like Hulk too. I was just picking at carter, lol. And don't hate on Doomsday, he's... okay well he WAS epic!
P.S. <3 Zoom and Flash
I agree he was epic. And reign of the Supermen was one of my favorite things to read, but doomsday was just the catalyst to me.
If it makes you feel better I don't really like Bane much, either. Both of them were just random characters created to generate profits on a bigger scale to me. OH GOD SUPERMAN DIES! OH GOD BATMAN BREAKS HIS BACK!!! I GOTTA SEE THIS SHIT!!
That's it.
Hulk is actually probably my favorite Marvel character. From when he joined the Pantheon through all of Peter David's run? That's what made me into the comic fan I am today.
Too bad Marvel sucks shit now.
[EDIT] Also Yeah. Flash is my favorite. Surprisingly I'm not a huge Reverse Flash Fan, but the art for my sig was too good to pass up. I like Zoom (Zolomon) much more than Reverse-Flash (Thawne).
Originally posted by Odekahn
I like Hulk too. I was just picking at carter, lol. And don't hate on Doomsday, he's... okay well he WAS epic!P.S. <3 Zoom and Flash
You gotta admit...Doomsday is powerful but Hulk is far above him.
[URL=http://img52.imageshack.us/i/81615084.jpg/][IMG]http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5607/81615084.th.
Originally posted by Blight
I agree he was epic. And reign of the Supermen was one of my favorite things to read, but doomsday was just the catalyst to me.If it makes you feel better I don't really like Bane much, either. Both of them were just random characters created to generate profits on a bigger scale to me. OH GOD SUPERMAN DIES! OH GOD BATMAN BREAKS HIS BACK!!! I GOTTA SEE THIS SHIT!!
That's it.
Hulk is actually probably my favorite Marvel character. From when he joined the Pantheon through all of Peter David's run? That's what made me into the comic fan I am today.
Too bad Marvel sucks shit now.
[EDIT] Also Yeah. Flash is my favorite. Surprisingly I'm not a huge Reverse Flash Fan, but the art for my sig was too good to pass up. I like Zoom (Zolomon) much more than Reverse-Flash (Thawne).
I actually thought that might be Reverse-Flash but I wasn't positive.
I agree that Marvel isn't up to snuff these days, but did you manage to catch AvX #0? The art could be better, and some of the dialogue at first was cheesy, but overall I'm pretty interested to see it all play out. I'm really hoping Marvel delivers something special with this.
Originally posted by OdekahnI haven't picked up a marvel book in quite a while, so no. This Avengers Vs. X-Men doesn't have me salivating or anything either. Though that could be due to the fact that I just don't care for marvel right now. Maybe one day I will look back, but I haven't picked much up since the beginning of Invasion. Civil War begged me to stop reading and the Beginning of Invasion was the nail in the coffin.
I actually thought that might be Reverse-Flash but I wasn't positive.I agree that Marvel isn't up to snuff these days, but did you manage to catch AvX #0? The art could be better, and some of the dialogue at first was cheesy, but overall I'm pretty interested to see it all play out. I'm really hoping Marvel delivers something special with this.
Good tip on identifying Zoom vs. Reverse Flash are the eyes. Zoom's are Black Goggle like things and RF's are human.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thanks for that at least. But that does specifically remove the one reference to Doomsday fighting as a blur from the conversation.
lol no problem and i agree it does.
I don't need to open a brand new thread for this tangential point.
good because we saw how well that turned out...
It's relatively simple. I want to prove that Superman can be surprised by an opponent's speed, say so, even be romped by an opponent while being surprised at an opponent's speed and, yet, Superman is still definitively faster than the opponent whose speed he just aggrandized. Could you interpret these character statements as matter-of-fact measurements that each of these characters is, indeed, faster than Superman's top combat superspeed? Yes. But you'd have to assume that Superman was, in fact, fighting at his top superspeeds (which based on his best feats was nanosecond). Because if he's not, then Superman could very well just as likely be talking about a relative measurement of how fast each of those characters are compared to his initial underestimation and unpreparedness. The usual "Hulk-speed-belies-his-size-and-power" schtick.
and here is where we will differ to some extent. firstly, i don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be at the outset. because we're not talking about JUST superman's comments. if we were, i would tend to lend a lot more credence to your stance. max, gold, and guy along with supes make mention of it. the other significant part of what you said is this:
Superman could very well just as likely be talking about a relative measurement of how fast each of those characters are compared to his initial underestimation and unpreparedness.
again, were this a one and done statement, i would whole-heartedly agree with you--it's blatantly obvious supes can and has been caught off guard many times, by many hulk-esque bricks. i don't think anyone is gainsaying that fact, least of all me. the reason i don't lump dd into that mongul/darkseid, et al., mix is because he made the comments repeatedly--even AFTER he was prepared. in the case of h/p, he was terrified, knew he had to avoid dd and even in spite of all his experience with dd he was STILL commenting on his speed. the same happened to max in DOS. she saw how fast he was, acknowledged said speed and was STILL caught by it again.
that kind of attention is and has never been given to the standard bricks. every mention of hulk's speed is in effect a cry of surprise. there is NEVER repeated mention of his speed across a battle, let alone across ISSUES and even ARCS. never. hulk's speed is generally referenced in relation to his size--dd's speed is referenced because he is fast. at the risk of repeating myself--that's a vast difference imo.
I believe the burden is fairly and squarely on people to prove that Superman was actually referencing top superspeeds, i.e., his own compared to this new opponent. Because the safe bet is, that he's just talking about his damned surprise at how fast he's moving compared to their size and power. And that's not an unreasonable assumption.
hmm, not so sure about the reasonableness, but not for the reason you think. if you're basing your stance on the fact that someone has to prove "top speed" than i think it is a bit unreasonable. it sounds like you're saying--"if superman isn't moving at top speed in their fight, dd must be hulk speed!" and that stance IS unreasonable. superman can be fighting at superspeed but NOT top speed. if dd can match him he has legit superspeed. not sure about you, but i don't think i've seen anyone actually say dd can match superman's top speed. i certainly am not. but to me it's clear he can match his speed to a certain, hard-to-define-point. and this is where it becomes open to interpretation. based on what i perceive to be clear writer intent, i see his speed as being superhuman--not 'fast for his size', but superhuman. can you honestly say you think superman--no matter how tired he was--would ever claim to have to amp his speed to match hulk?? i say there is no chance of that, ever.
Moreso, when Superman is, based on independent feats, almost assuredly faster than each of these foes. And even moreso, when other encounters reveal that Superman used his superior speed against each of these foes:
why the one-or-the-other scenario though? it's not like if he's not as fast as kal's top speed he's hulk speed. there is a VAST gulf in which he could comfortably sit. i agree clark--at his best feats--is faster and could probably punch blitz dd, at least for a bit. but....kal has some of the best combat speed feats in comics. that doesn't mean dd is hulk speed.
So my honest question is this: you really expect me to take Superman's statement to their utmost literal limit and NOT with a grain of salt? Based on Superman's superbrick foes in the past and how he's commented on their (surprising) speed accompanying him being romped, I will take them with a clear grain of salt. #1 Because Superman's clearly got far superior independent superspeed feats. #2 Because ofttimes, Superman actually proves his outright superior speed against those same foes.
no i wouldn't expect you to take just supes' words. but it wasn't JUST supes and he didn't make mention only when he was initially surprised. even prepared (and amped in h/p) he STILL commented on dd's speed.
Now am I trying to say that Darkseid, Lobo and General are relatively superslow bricks that couldn't possibly match Superman? Absolutely not. They obviously are fast enough to give Superman a fight. But the common ground is that their size and power belies their shocking speed, making that a deadly combination for Superman to deal with. But when you're that big and powerful, you don't need Flash-level speed, or Superman-level speed. You apparently need Hulk-level speed.If Hulk and Superman fought in a canon fight, Superman would likely say the same sh1t, and likely have the same trouble.
he would, and DID in your scan. but show me where he made repeated mention of hulk's speed beyond his initial surprise, let alone where kal does so WHILE he continues to push harder and harder and grows more and more desperate.
one-off exclamations of surprise and caught-unawares are NOT at all what was going on during the dd arcs.
meh, we're not likely to agree, but at least i'm reasonable (relatively) and not obtuse. that's something i guess. sneer
