Originally posted by Galan007There are probably over fifteen sigs you've never seen thus far to boot. I select the images and let the artist do the rest.
My God you keep Scythe busy. He must make you a sig like every other day.
Originally posted by Sr J-BiebHey, it isn't deviant behavior. Get with the times.
Quan repays him with his mouth.
Originally posted by Galan007Take your backwards a$$ hypocritical sh1t to someone who cares. Seriously. First it was, "Well Superman with legit combat superspeed is talking about his speed, so it must mean something???" Now because it's utterly exposed with other superbricks that Superman has made the same comments on, its' "Well, other people other than Superman reinforced Superman's comments, so it must mean something???" Guy Gardner? Booster Gold? Metropolis SCU while they're flying? Pedestrians while they're flying? Maxima?
Ignored the rest of it, or what?:
Seriously, go bury your head in a hole. Doomsday has no indepdent superspeed feats. Beyond a near-dead Superman saying he had to up his power and speed, you've got nothing but character statements. Character statements that have been placed onto other superbricks.
You want to feign disinterestness in discussing this further, then stop pandering the same illogic. You want to discuss it, then bring it. Because I'm tired of being blamed for offering proof when its demanded of me. And that's exactly what you tried to do. I'm insulted. This half-stepping bullsh1t pockmarked in between trollish remarks by others who fear entering into a constructive conversation isn't working for me. And you damn well ought to respect that frustration when I've taken the time to articulate and prove up my stance amid the varying goalposts presented here.
If all you have to offer is "lol," then take it elsewhere. I've got posters arguing Flash-level superspeed and Hulk++++-level speed that your Superman-level speed position is utterly superfluous and unnecessary. Take a knee on the sideline.
Originally posted by OdekahnIn front of Hal's face. Unless you're trying to suggest Hal sucks compared to Guy, I'm not going to apologize for blowing up your preconceptions by citing to a Green Lantern who got b1tch owned by a human speed opponent.
Batman snuck the ring off Hal's finger. Doomsday wasn't sneaking when he slammed Guy. And if wikipedia serves you correctly, superspeed is listed as one of Doomsday's powers.And yes, tense has everything to do with what's going on. Notice in the same panel, the guy standing next to him says "What was that?!" He said it in past tense because on the panel prior there was an extremely loud noise. The noise wasn't continual so he asked what it WAS. When the other guy made the observation of of what he saw, he used present tense. He was watching it, it wasn't just a flyby that he caught a momentary glimpse of.
Again I ask... Why would the writer dumb Superman down and nerf him to meet Doomsday instead of create DD with the powerset to kill a Superman who repeatedly gave it all he had? Why make just another brick? Doomsday wasn't created for a monthly issue, he was made for the sole purpose of killing Superman.
And why all the references to his speed? Why aren't they referencing his speed in proportion to his size? Why the comparison to Flash? Do you really think a writer would compare a character without superspeed to the Flash? No. He was trying to get his point across, and he did. For most of us anyways...
Tense has sh1t to do with what happened. Your semantics are utterly unconvincing. Superman flew Doomsday at high speeds through walls. That's the blur they saw, nuff said.
Why has Superman been dumbed down against all the superbricks I just mentioned? Go write your DC editor, not me.
The references to speed aren't any different from the ones relegated to other superbricks. It's not my fault you wish to ignore those comments when it comes to other superbricks. Cap was compared to Quicksilver, I don't give two sh1ts about seemingly retarded speedster comparisons. Do you really think a street-level character is going to be compared to a supersonic speedster? Stop begging questions that answer themselves. Characters state a lot of things. Character statements do not prove a specific quantity of superspeed, superstrength, etc. Specifically when there are no independent superspeed, superstrength feats to reinforce those quantifications. Doomsday was faster than Guy Gardner thought he would be, faster than Booster Gold thought he would be, faster than Maxima thought he would be, faster than Superman thought he would be, and faster than a near-dead Superman was operating. Such statements do not necessitate superspeedster levels of speed. Not in the least bit.
And I'd dare you to prove otherwise. Except you've got it twisted a$$ backwards like other people like it's on me to prove the negative.
Originally posted by leonidasExplain that to the others who won't even speculate as much.
lol no problem and i agree it does.good because we saw how well that turned out...
You have far less idea of what went on behind that thread than you realize. As it isn't my place to say so, let's just say your deflection isn't wha you think.
Originally posted by leonidasLike the Avengers were prepared for Hulk's surprising speed after multiple encounters issue after issue (considering encounters usually lasted one issue back then)? Like the FF were prepared for Hulk's surprising speed after multiple encounters issue after issue (considering encounters usually lasted one issue back then)? Just because a fresh Superman commented on Doomsday's surprised speed and then a near-dead Superman commented on how he had to fight faster, doesn't mean sh1t. YOU CAN'T PROVE SUPERMAN OR DOOMSDAY WERE FIGHTING AT (OR NEAR) SUPERMAN'S PEAK COMBAT SUPERSPEEDS.
and here is where we will differ to some extent. firstly, i don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be at the outset. because we're not talking about JUST superman's comments. if we were, i would tend to lend a lot more credence to your stance. max, gold, and guy along with supes make mention of it. the other significant part of what you said is this:Superman could very well just as likely be talking about a relative measurement of how fast each of those characters are compared to his initial underestimation and unpreparedness.
again, were this a one and done statement, i would whole-heartedly agree with you--it's blatantly obvious supes can and has been caught off guard many times, by many hulk-esque bricks. i don't think anyone is gainsaying that fact, least of all me. the reason i don't lump dd into that mongul/darkseid, et al., mix is because he made the comments repeatedly--even AFTER he was prepared. in the case of h/p, he was terrified, knew he had to avoid dd and even in spite of all his experience with dd he was STILL commenting on his speed. the same happened to max in DOS. she saw how fast he was, acknowledged said speed and was STILL caught by it again.
Originally posted by leonidasIt is. Often. And the statements don't transmogrify into something different because General only gets two sequential issues and Doomsday gets five sequential issues. There is no god damn vast difference in the character statements made about Doomsday just because Superman said it or just because Booster Gold said it right after Superman or just because Guy Gardner said it right before Superman.
that kind of attention is and has never been given to the standard bricks. every mention of hulk's speed is in effect a cry of surprise. there is NEVER repeated mention of his speed across a battle, let alone across ISSUES and even ARCS. never. hulk's speed is generally referenced in relation to his size--dd's speed is referenced because he is fast. at the risk of repeating myself--that's a vast difference imo.hmm, not so sure about the reasonableness, but not for the reason you think. if you're basing your stance on the fact that someone has to prove "top speed" than i think it is a bit unreasonable. it sounds like you're saying--"if superman isn't moving at top speed in their fight, dd must be hulk speed!" and that stance IS unreasonable. superman can be fighting at superspeed but NOT top speed. if dd can match him he has legit superspeed. not sure about you, but i don't think i've seen anyone actually say dd can match superman's top speed. i certainly am not. but to me it's clear he can match his speed to a certain, hard-to-define-point. and this is where it becomes open to interpretation. based on what i perceive to be clear writer intent, i see his speed as being superhuman--not 'fast for his size', but superhuman. can you honestly say you think superman--no matter how tired he was--would ever claim to have to amp his speed to match hulk?? i say there is no chance of that, ever.
Bullsh1t. You show me where Darkseid, Lobo and General based on the same nominal, common comicbook trope statements should be treated differently. If Superman were near-death, I'd easily take for granted his statements that he'd have to up his speed/strength for Hulk. And if that notion offends you, don;t read any crossovers anytime soon.
Originally posted by leonidasTHAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING. Why is it that Superman's statements have to be referencing superspeedster speeds? Don't you beg the question that's been laid at your feet from the beginning. Superman didn't blitz Despero or Konvikt. Am I supposed to assume that this non-feat make them faster than Lobo or Darkseid? Each of whom has been speedblitzed by Superman? Each of whom have their own independent superpseed feats that vastly outweigh anything Despero or Konvikt have done? What's the possible justification for ignoring Lobo's and Darkseid's feats when compared to Despero's and Konvikt's non-feats? Because Superman blitzed the former and not the latter? So you're admitting that combat superspeed is completely and utterly measured by how Superman reacts? What Superman-archetype gets this benefit of the doubt? Do Majestic, Hyperion, Gladiator, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, Blue Marvel, Sentry foes get this phucking reverse projection? No? Why not? Becaue they don't wear red-and-blue tights? Don't be o god damned transparent about this hypocrisy. You can't possibly defend it.
why the one-or-the-other scenario though? it's not like if he's not as fast as kal's top speed he's hulk speed. there is a VAST gulf in which he could comfortably sit. i agree clark--at his best feats--is faster and could probably punch blitz dd, at least for a bit. but....kal has some of the best combat speed feats in comics. that doesn't mean dd is hulk speed.no i wouldn't expect you to take just supes' words. but it wasn't JUST supes and he didn't make mention only when he was initially surprised. even prepared (and amped in h/p) he STILL commented on dd's speed.
Guy Garder and Booster Gold are worthless. Metropolis SCU were commenting on traveling speed as you admit. We have Maxima. Why is her word suddenly transmogrify Superman's own word? When with other superbricks, Superman's word obviously meant bullsh1t? Neither Wonder Woman, or Orion, nor Plastic Man, nor Martian Manhunter, nor Green Lantern mention a god damn thing about a supposedly stronger/faster H/P Doomsday's speed during Doomsday Wars. You really want to compare what other non-Superman character statements exist or do not exist?
Originally posted by leonidasSeriously. The repetition is a complete bullsh1t deflection. If I showed you how many times throughout Hulk's career is surprising speed was referenced, you'd scoff, even if the number vastly outnumbered every single appearance of Doomsday or Doomsday-analogue.
he would, and DID in your scan. but show me where he made repeated mention of hulk's speed beyond his initial surprise, let alone where kal does so WHILE he continues to push harder and harder and grows more and more desperate.one-off exclamations of surprise and caught-unawares are NOT at all what was going on during the dd arcs.
meh, we're not likely to agree, but at least i'm reasonable (relatively) and not obtuse. that's something i guess. sneer
One-off exclamations of surprise and caught-unawares are ALL THAT WAS going on. Because you haven't once pointed out a single independent speed feat of Doomsday's. We already ruled out the straight-line flying speed schlock. We already ruled out the one reference to blurs. What the hell else do you have other than exclamations of surprise and caught-unawares? The notion that they can't possibly be repeated by the same character? Like the Avengers and FF haven't repeated about Hulk?
What a desperate, pathetic red herring.
Originally posted by Placidity
Oh my... you guys been repeating the same shit for 20 pages and you don't even realize you are being trolled by Hulk Butthurt, are you fcking serious? THE EXACT SAME THING FOR 20 PAGES.
Originally posted by PlacidityIn the meantime, you're pretending you haven't made a colossal goon of yourself by trying to argue that this thread had nothing to do with Hulk from the beginning. Then it did... somehow... for the "more discerning" (your own words, lol). Which somehow didn't include you because you were so indignant that Hulk was being mentioned in the first place.
I'm not saying you are. OneDumbGo was implying this was a political thread, and I am saying unless Carver actually says it is a bait thread, then this is a legitimate thread. For once I am "defending" you.As for the topic, IMO CISLESS Surfer would win. The most important reason being CIS OFF for SS, and on for Doomsday. I've always viewed CISLess SS as being at the top of the food chain among Heralds. CISless SS means he has access to all of his powers with Cosmic Awareness aiding him in determining which course of action would be most efficient and effective.
This isn't the time or place to reinforce what a moron you've been in this thread. But please feel free to continue "defending" carver9's honor that this thread had nothing to do with Hulk.
Originally posted by carver9Yeah. Be carver9's white knight in shining armor that this never had anything to do with Hulk. Seriously, pretend like you have a leg to stand on, moron.
Someone asked me to make this thread, so I did. Look at all all the Hulk threads that gets created daily just to get my attention to pi** me off then maybe you'll aim that anger at someone else (yes, I'm famous like that).
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
In front of Hal's face. Unless you're trying to suggest Hal sucks compared to Guy, I'm not going to apologize for blowing up your preconceptions by citing to a Green Lantern who got b1tch owned by a human speed opponent.
Show me the scan of what you're referencing.
Tense has sh1t to do with what happened. Your semantics are utterly unconvincing. Superman flew Doomsday at high speeds through walls. That's the blur they saw, nuff said.
Why? Because you say it's so? You can call it unconvincing all you want, but just saying that's the way it is without any reason why is REALLY unconvincing.
Why has Superman been dumbed down against all the superbricks I just mentioned? Go write your DC editor, not me.
Because those other superbricks already existed and in order to pose a threat, Superman couldn't go all out on them. Doomsday was created with the purpose of killing Superman. Superman didn't have to be dumbed down because Doomsday was created with the power to match and kill him.
The references to speed aren't any different from the ones relegated to other superbricks. It's not my fault you wish to ignore those comments when it comes to other superbricks.
Yes, they are different and it's been explained numerous times how they are different. Doomsday's speed is referenced in and of itself, not due to his speed/size ratio. And the comments continued over and over again. It wasn't a one off comment, it was a continual piece of the story.
Cap was compared to Quicksilver, I don't give two sh1ts about seemingly retarded speedster comparisons. Do you really think a street-level character is going to be compared to a supersonic speedster? Stop begging questions that answer themselves.
So what? Quicksilver doesn't begin to compare to Flash, and in that particular arc, was Cap's speed spoken of again and again? You're splitting hairs so badly that you aren't even seeing the big picture. You can't see the forest for the trees.
Characters state a lot of things.
You're right, like Doctor Doom states that he is smarter than Reed, but that is completely different than writer direction. It's completely different than a hero continually struggling with a strength of a brand new villain, much less many different heroes.
Character statements do not prove a specific quantity of superspeed, superstrength, etc. Specifically when there are no independent superspeed, superstrength feats to reinforce those quantifications.
No, they don't prove a quantity, but they prove that an attribute at least exists! I don't know to what degree Doomsday has superspeed, but it's clear as day that he has it.
Doomsday was faster than Guy Gardner thought he would be, faster than Booster Gold thought he would be, faster than Maxima thought he would be, faster than Superman thought he would be, and faster than a near-dead Superman was operating. Such statements do not necessitate superspeedster levels of speed. Not in the least bit.
It wasn't that they thought he would be slower, it was that they were being overwhelmed. If it was just that he was faster than they thought he would be, you'd think that after a while they would smarten up and get the idea of how fast he was. Guy may be a human, but he's not a real person. His words are written by a writer, and the intent was to establish the new character Doomsday. You seem like a smart enough guy, I really don't understand how you can be so stupid.
And I'd dare you to prove otherwise. Except you've got it twisted a$$ backwards like other people like it's on me to prove the negative.
It's been proven over and over again. There's a reason that most everyone agrees that he has superspeed.
Abilities: Superhuman Strength
Superhuman Speed
Superhuman Endurance
Superhuman Agility
Healing Factor
Invulnerability
Reactive Adaptation
Evolutionary Camoflauge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_(comics)
Super-Speed
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Doomsday_(New_Earth)
Super strength
Super speed
Super durability
Evolution
Immortal
http://www.comicvine.com/doomsday/29-9989/doomsday-abilities/92-137975/
His reflexes and speed are vastly beyond what's expected for his bulky size, and has been able to match Superman in this regard.
http://www.superherodb.com/Doomsday/10-679/#tab3
Doomsday has Invulnerability probably greater than that of a normal Kryptonian; as well as Super Strength, Super Speed, and incredible leaping ability.
Super speed - Despite his large size, Doomsday can move, react and respond at superhuman speeds that cannot be followed, percieved or detected by the human eye.
http://superman.wikia.com/wiki/Doomsday
But I'm tired of running in circles with you so this will be my last post on the topic. It's so obvious that it's mind numbing how you refuse to accept it. But I suppose you can only lead a horse to water...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
blah blah blah
lol what Carver is/was doing is a separate issue from your Hulk Butthurt in this thread. I don't even know why you bother defending yourself anymore, over the last 20 pages or so you have been BLATANTLY HULK BUTTHURT - everyone who has been following this thread knows it. Would've been less embarrassing for you if you didn't respond to me. By bringing it up again you're only incriminating yourself further (if that were possible), I guess it must be because you are the ad hom king and you couldn't resist.
You already got shutdown for your trolling and Hulk butthurt in the "DD/Hulk Speed" thread - the EXACT same thing you are doing in here. I'm wondering when mods are going to apply it here too, that would be your best hope.
Originally posted by OdekahnI am not your scan monkey. Read Justice League #1.
Show me the scan of what you're referencing.Why? Because you say it's so? You can call it unconvincing all you want, but just saying that's the way it is without any reason why is REALLY unconvincing.
As if you just saying the tense is supremely important just because you say so? Come up with coherent reasoning rather than arbitrary disconnected illogic.
Originally posted by OdekahnWhat? Like Darkseid doesn't present the ultimate DC threat? That General literally originated from the pre-Criss Shaggyman, the most heralded superbrick of comics outside of PC Validus? That Lobo isn't the superbrick of all superbricks in comicdom currently?
Because those other superbricks already existed and in order to pose a threat, Superman couldn't go all out on them. Doomsday was created with the purpose of killing Superman. Superman didn't have to be dumbed down because Doomsday was created with the power to match and kill him.Yes, they are different and it's been explained numerous times how they are different. Doomsday's speed is referenced in and of itself, not due to his speed/size ratio. And the comments continued over and over again. It wasn't a one off comment, it was a continual piece of the story.
Like other superbricks's speed hasn't? Look at whar I posted for Lobo and General, if not Darkseid (who ironically is the only one with measurable superspeed feats). Sorry to shatter your preconceptions.
Originally posted by OdekahnSuperbricks would never be compared to superspeedsters unless they were superspeedsters. That's your flimsy inference. Well... street characters would never be compared to supersonic speedsters unless they're supersonic speedsters, going by your logic. Character statements are so unreliable that taking them literally can actually inflate a character thousands of times faster/stronger than the are. Just because it involved a Superman character doesn't lend it more credence. Doomsday isn't the only superbrick who romped through the JLA and Superman repeatedly.
So what? Quicksilver doesn't begin to compare to Flash, and in that particular arc, was Cap's speed spoken of again and again? You're splitting hairs so badly that you aren't even seeing the big picture. You can't see the forest for the trees.You're right, like Doctor Doom states that he is smarter than Reed, but that is completely different than writer direction. It's completely different than a hero continually struggling with a strength of a brand new villain, much less many different heroes.
No, they don't prove a quantity, but they prove that an attribute at least exists! I don't know to what degree Doomsday has superspeed, but it's clear as day that he has it.
Arbitrary and utterly unjustified deflection.
Of course it exists. Do;t straw-man me. It just doesn't exist beyond what other superbricks have demonstrated who similarly have no independent superspeed feats to their name (and even some who do). Doomsday isn't a superspeester. Darkseid, Loo and General didn't need to be superspeedsters to overwhelm, romp and even blitz Superman. Neither does Doomsday. And if that notion offends you, I'd advise you to never read a Superman vs superbrick fight ever again.
Originally posted by OdekahnGet your wiki-style garbage out of here. I could edit all that sh1t out right now and repost it for you. When you want to show me Doomsday moving beyod that which the human eye can follow, do it. You obviously can't. Beyond Superman flying him at high traveling speeds, of course. Commence eyerolling.
It wasn't that they thought he would be slower, it was that they were being overwhelmed. If it was just that he was faster than they thought he would be, you'd think that after a while they would smarten up and get the idea of how fast he was. Guy may be a human, but he's not a real person. His words are written by a writer, and the intent was to establish the new character Doomsday. You seem like a smart enough guy, I really don't understand how you can be so stupid.It's been proven over and over again. There's a reason that most everyone agrees that he has superspeed.
Abilities: Superhuman Strength
[B]Superhuman Speed
Superhuman Endurance
Superhuman Agility
Healing Factor
Invulnerability
Reactive Adaptation
Evolutionary Camoflaugehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_(comics)
Super-Speed
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Doomsday_(New_Earth)
Super strength
Super speed
Super durability
Evolution
Immortalhttp://www.comicvine.com/doomsday/29-9989/doomsday-abilities/92-137975/
His reflexes and speed are vastly beyond what's expected for his bulky size, and has been able to match Superman in this regard.
http://www.superherodb.com/Doomsday/10-679/#tab3
Doomsday has Invulnerability probably greater than that of a normal Kryptonian; as well as Super Strength, Super Speed, and incredible leaping ability.
Super speed - Despite his large size, Doomsday can move, react and respond at superhuman speeds that cannot be followed, percieved or detected by the human eye.
http://superman.wikia.com/wiki/Doomsday
But I'm tired of running in circles with you so this will be my last post on the topic. It's so obvious that it's mind numbing how you refuse to accept it. But I suppose you can only lead a horse to water... [/B]
^ Or Hal wasn't really being careful and paying attention. Of course, Guy Gardner is the epitome of patience and careful planning.
🙄
Originally posted by PlacidityTake your clown act elsewhere. You revealed yourself to be a bumbling colossal goon by pretending that this thread had nothing to do with Hulk. You even went so far as to carry a conversation with carver9 about how this had nothing to do with Hulk to manufacture pretense for your patronistic schlock.
lol what Carver is/was doing is a separate issue from your Hulk Butthurt in this thread. I don't even know why you bother defending yourself anymore, over the last 20 pages or so you have been BLATANTLY HULK BUTTHURT - everyone who has been following this thread knows it. Would've been less embarrassing for you if you didn't respond to me. By bringing it up again you're only incriminating yourself further (if that were possible), I guess it must be because you are the ad hom king and you couldn't resist.You already got shutdown for your trolling and Hulk butthurt in the "DD/Hulk Speed" thread - the EXACT same thing you are doing in here. I'm wondering when mods are going to apply it here too, that would be your best hope.
You had no idea what was going on, even when I announced it. That I announced it and you declined to recognize it led me to believe you were a moron. As I initially stated. That you kept trying to prove to me that this thread had nothing to do with Hulk despite me telling you outright, led me to believe you're a butthurt moron. Now you're trying to convince me that you knew it all along, but this sh1t was different when I brought it up. Sorry, but as you failed to remember, I didn't bring up Hulk in this thread. Three other posters did, while I was discussing Doomsday solely.
That you can act like you're in any position to lecture me on what's relevant in this thread is hilarity. Take your butthurt elsewhere. I'd suggest you make a thread where Doomsday's speed can never be compared to other superbricks like Hulk. Don't expect met entertain your backseat mod horsesh1t here when it's obvious from the beginning that H/P Doomsday is being compared to Hulk, clown.
But, oh wait. It's not that this thread precludes discussion of analogue characters. It's that this thread makes your anus bleed. Sorry, but neither the world nor this thread revolves around your anal leakage. Phuck off. Or go troll some poster that mentions Superman in a Gladiator thread, or some poster that mentions Flash in a Zoom thread, or some poster that mentions Darkseid in a Thanos thread. You've got a sh1t-load of trolling to do, champ. Hop to it.
^ It's simple. Doomsday is Flash-level superspeed otherwise you're butthurt. Or... y'know... he's at least Superman-level superspeed... or at the very least Surfer-level superspeed. Because of character statements. And nothing else.
The difference between the other superbricks Superman's faced like Darkseid, Lobo and General? Booster Gold mentioned Doomsday was fast as Flash. Somehow, that outweighs all the superior measurable superspeed feats that Darkseid, Lobo, etc. have.
Booster Gold said so. Totally paints Superman's utterly banal statements in a different light somehow. Even though Superman said the same sh1t about Darkseid, Lobo and General, etc. Yeah, I don't get it either. It's like Booster Gold adds a +1 in character statement aggrandization or something.
But watch out, Placidity is going to report me for mentioning Darkseid, Lobo and General because they're not in this thread. After all, at this point, that's the only premise he's got to take me to task for bringing up Hulk. Even when I wasn't the first (or second, or third) one to do so in this thread. Even when I didn't make the thread as a direct response to a Hulk controversy in another thread.
hysterical
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But watch out, Placidity is going to report me for mentioning Darkseid, Lobo and General because they're not in this thread. After all, at this point, that's the only premise he's got to take me to task for bringing up Hulk. Even when I wasn't the first (or second, or third) one to do so in this thread. Even when I didn't make the thread as a direct response to a Hulk controversy in another thread.
Lol straw man all you want, who are you fooling?
I see how you got no response to how you got shutdown and warned in the DD/Hulk Speed thread for exactly what you are doing in here - trolling and Butthurt.
BTW - You should know I don't read half the drivel you post, so keep up the good effort, I'm sure you have a lot more witty insults you can throw in and make sure to give yourself a pat on back after 🙂