Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Explain that to the others who won't even speculate as much.You have far less idea of what went on behind that thread than you realize. As it isn't my place to say so, let's just say your deflection isn't wha you think. Like the Avengers were prepared for Hulk's surprising speed after multiple encounters issue after issue (considering encounters usually lasted one issue back then)? Like the FF were prepared for Hulk's surprising speed after multiple encounters issue after issue (considering encounters usually lasted one issue back then)? Just because a fresh Superman commented on Doomsday's surprised speed and then a near-dead Superman commented on how he had to fight faster, doesn't mean sh1t. YOU CAN'T PROVE SUPERMAN OR DOOMSDAY WERE FIGHTING AT (OR NEAR) SUPERMAN'S PEAK COMBAT SUPERSPEEDS. It is. Often. And the statements don't transmogrify into something different because General only gets two sequential issues and Doomsday gets five sequential issues. There is no god damn vast difference in the character statements made about Doomsday just because Superman said it or just because Booster Gold said it right after Superman or just because Guy Gardner said it right before Superman.
Bullsh1t. You show me where Darkseid, Lobo and General based on the same nominal, common comicbook trope statements should be treated differently. If Superman were near-death, I'd easily take for granted his statements that he'd have to up his speed/strength for Hulk. And if that notion offends you, don;t read any crossovers anytime soon. THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING. Why is it that Superman's statements have to be referencing superspeedster speeds? Don't you beg the question that's been laid at your feet from the beginning. Superman didn't blitz Despero or Konvikt. Am I supposed to assume that this non-feat make them faster than Lobo or Darkseid? Each of whom has been speedblitzed by Superman? Each of whom have their own independent superpseed feats that vastly outweigh anything Despero or Konvikt have done? What's the possible justification for ignoring Lobo's and Darkseid's feats when compared to Despero's and Konvikt's non-feats? Because Superman blitzed the former and not the latter? So you're admitting that combat superspeed is completely and utterly measured by how Superman reacts? What Superman-archetype gets this benefit of the doubt? Do Majestic, Hyperion, Gladiator, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, Blue Marvel, Sentry foes get this phucking reverse projection? No? Why not? Becaue they don't wear red-and-blue tights? Don't be o god damned transparent about this hypocrisy. You can't possibly defend it.
Guy Garder and Booster Gold are worthless. Metropolis SCU were commenting on traveling speed as you admit. We have Maxima. Why is her word suddenly transmogrify Superman's own word? When with other superbricks, Superman's word obviously meant bullsh1t? Neither Wonder Woman, or Orion, nor Plastic Man, nor Martian Manhunter, nor Green Lantern mention a god damn thing about a supposedly stronger/faster H/P Doomsday's speed during Doomsday Wars. You really want to compare what other non-Superman character statements exist or do not exist? Seriously. The repetition is a complete bullsh1t deflection. If I showed you how many times throughout Hulk's career is surprising speed was referenced, you'd scoff, even if the number vastly outnumbered every single appearance of Doomsday or Doomsday-analogue.
One-off exclamations of surprise and caught-unawares are ALL THAT WAS going on. Because you haven't once pointed out a single independent speed feat of Doomsday's. We already ruled out the straight-line flying speed schlock. We already ruled out the one reference to blurs. What the hell else do you have other than exclamations of surprise and caught-unawares? The notion that they can't possibly be repeated by the same character? Like the Avengers and FF haven't repeated about Hulk?
What a desperate, pathetic red herring.
meh, you continue to equivocate. you say he's got superspeed like hulk does--i'm not even sure what that kind of superspeed is.
so, he has this hulk-level superspeed, but where is the proof hulk has actual superspeed? how do you conclude that the whole fight simply wasn't simply fought at regular old human speed? if you're in for a penny.....
just say it--there's no proof at all the fight was at superspeed. therefore, it follows that they weren't fighting at superspeed. in any way at all. this mythical speed you attribute to hulk and dd isn't really superspeed, but you never proved anywhere, despite being asked repeatedly, to show hulk has superspeed. he's merely quick for his size and has surprised some people. nowhere have you shown his repeatedly surprising anyone, or shocking anyone with real superspeed, or flat out overwhelming someone (even lobo did this) with superspeed.
and yet, with this clear dearth of proof regarding hulk's speed, you still say dd has superspeed like hulk. 🤨
why bother? just say he's got human speed--batman level? you want your stance taken seriously, but seem unwilling to go all in--you repeatedly say "he's fast enough to be dangerous to superman". why? there's no proof of his speed, so, no superspeed feats=no superspeed. therefore all statements are PIS/character jobbing, etc., and the intention of the writer is rendered meaningless--we're not supposed to think he was superfast, just fast as hulk who has no superspeed feats.) 😐
you can't claim no proof, then still sttribute either of them with superspeed.
Would like to bring this up. Superman on panel stated that Shadowdragon was too fast for him, you know, the same Shadow dragon that Lady Shiva blitzed and kept up with during the same fight. The same SD that Lady Shiva defeated. I take what Superman say about a character power level with a grain of salt.
Lady Shiva>Nano Second speed>Shadow Dragon=\>Nano Second speed>Superman speed.
By the way, Superman lost his fight against SD because of the speed difference (lol...whatever that was) and he lost during PHYSICAL combat because he couldn't even lay a glove on his opponent (same can't be said for Doomsday) whereas Lady Shiva was able to outright blitz the same person and beat the hell out of him during the same fight. SD is by far a Wolverine level character based directly off of fts.
Shadow Dragon compliment towards his speed was greater than what Superman said about Doomsday. Nano second for the win.
Originally posted by carver9
Would like to bring this up. Superman on panel stated that Shadowdragon was too fast for him, you know, the same Shadow dragon that Lady Shiva blitzed and kept up with during the same fight. The same SD that Lady Shiva defeated. I take what Superman say about a character power level with a grain of salt.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Black panther armbarred surfer too, cap koed hulk with punches. Does those count too?
You are clearly missing the point. Superman compliments mean sh**. It's not the fact that Superman lost to the character, its Superman admitting on panel that this character was much more faster than him. A Superman actually using his powers would blitz the hell out of Shadow Dragon. Like I said, I don't listen to anything Superman say about someone's speed, strength or durability. How many time has Superman said "this is the strongest guy I've ever faced"? How many times has Superman said "his speed match mine or he is fast, I couldnt even react"?
Superman is just a guy who underestimates himself and even when push comes to shove, he holds back.
Originally posted by carver9
You are clearly missing the point. Superman compliments mean sh**. It's not the fact that Superman lost to the character, its Superman admitting on panel that this character was much more faster than him. A Superman actually using his powers would blitz the hell out of Shadow Dragon. Like I said, I don't listen to anything Superman say about someone's speed, strength or durability. How many time has Superman said "this is the strongest guy I've ever faced"? How many times has Superman said "his speed match mine or he is fast, I couldnt even react"?Superman is just a guy who underestimates himself and even when push comes to shove, he holds back.
Originally posted by Cogito
Hey, that was my pointsneer
Hey I brought-up that you pointed it out so NYAH!! 😠
Originally posted by quanchi112
I never said tear gas has more force than a nuke I said with more power it stands to reason more powerful tear gas would also be needed. Just like Superman's power increased more powerful punches would be needed to hurt him. It follows the same logic yours doesn't. Tear gas might be effective against the Hulk in the distant past but that doesn't mean it's a weakness either. Superman's weaknesses are well documented.
No, you don't even comprehend what I've been saying. It's quite clear at this point. Your argument is completely illogical. You're saying that Superman is just as weak to force as Hulk is to gas. Your argument has been they've both increased in power. All that means is Hulk would've gotten more resistant, it doesn't mean he wouldn't be disproportionately weak to it. You've argued that Hulk can now tank a nuke. I pointed-out I saw a scan that was roughly around the time of Hulk being downed by tear gas, and he took FOUR nukes. So explain how Hulk isn't weak to gas unless you think that tear gas>nukes? Having become more powerful doesn't mean he's as weak to it as Superman is to being punched. Superman has always taken a great deal of force to be physically hurt.
For the sake of illustration, let's say a nuke Hulk took is a 30, and the tear gas is a 2. Well, now that he's become more powerful, maybe it takes the gas being a 15 to hurt him, but the physical force is now a 120. Hulk is still disproportionately vulnerable to gas compared to physical force.
Superman, on the other hand, has been more resistant to gas since the Byrne era.
s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smos-077.jpg
And there's other examples both published in this time frame, and that take place during this point in his career. Like this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=BSWWTrinity-001-56.jpg
So, no, your argument does not follow the same logic, 'cuz Superman is just as proportionately resistant to gas attacks as he is physical force. Maybe, just MAYBE now you'll start to understand what I've been saying.
Originally posted by quanchi112
His adaptability along with his power ring make it irrelevant to this thread. Sorry.
So, you've got proof the Guardian couldn't overcome any advantage the Power Ring gave Doomsday against the GLs?
Originally posted by quanchi112
A weaker version of Dd absolutely but a stronger version died to dos Superman. That means this DD was weaker than this version minus the ring. The ring is what made him the threat hence any comparison doesn't matter because he was amped.
And now your words make it appear you're arguing the Power Ring still amped him when it was destroyed. Are you getting selective amnesia?
Originally posted by quanchi112
I also assumed you were intelligent enough to comprehend that DD died in hp. Just because it didn't happen on panel doesn't gve you the right to purposely misinterpret the scene because you want to pretend.
Except, I've already told you. I wasn't talking about the entire scene, merely the part where they were surviving the forces of gravity and all that. You're just desperately clinging to this. There's a huge difference between the part I showed and the part where time it's self has ended. There's nothing TO survive from there. End of story. For you to keep arguing this has you either desperately grasping at straws, or you're an idiot. Which is it, Quanchi?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Do I really need to leaf through and scan a page just to prove this to you ?
I've been nice enough to show scans to what I reference when I can, it'd be appreciated if you would do the same. I'd like to see this to see how legit an argument it is. After all, you do think Doomsday was killed by his bacteria being "expunged."
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it isn't a big deal. You might be impressed by this sort of thing but I am sure you use selective reasoning.
It isn't a big deal? Then I guess space being damaged is about as common as lifting cars in comics?
Originally posted by quanchi112
You already agreed Surfer wins so who cares. 😂
Clearly you do. If all that mattered was I agreed Surfer won, instead of the why, you would've dropped-out LONG AGO. But the only reason Surfer wins here is due to the scenario. But no, you must "win" that Surfer wins because he kills Doomsday, or whatever it is you think happens.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You can twist around the words however you like but the words make it clear. I know you like to twist words around to fit your meaning but I have heard about you before you even showed upon the shores of kmc.
And what "twisting around" am I doing? It's quite clear that Imperiex Prime was speaking metaphorically. He saw Doomsday as bacteria to him. The "expunged" he was referring to was clearly killing Doomsday.
As for you've heard about me, you think I care? From who? DevilHulk? Oh yeah he's a case of honesty and trustworthy-ness. That kid was proven to be a liar on my old site posting under different usernames and still lied about it. But that's irrelevant since it doesn't really matter to me what you've heard about me. But it does matter that right here we see you can't tell what the comic actually meant.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Comics don't have to make sense it is what it is. This doesn't have to match up to realistic applications.
While this is a true statement, you're still wrong. Doomsday being killed by his bacteria being "expunged" makes no sense even for comics.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That's why I said the outcome. Why repeat what I just said ? Surfer's power greatly exceeds what DD has shown to tank before so....
See my above statement. If all that mattered was I agreed Surfer won, instead of the how, you wouldn't still be here.
Originally posted by quanchi112
No. Doomsday fought for over a week and didn't adapt past him. It took death to be able to adapt to hurt Radiant. The force required was greater because he came back stronger. I never said DD can't adapt to energy attacks I said he isn't immune to all energy attacks and the force it brings makes all the difference.
So what? This is H/P Doomsday. We saw H/P Doomsday adapt to Waverider's energy quickly. Me showing the YEAR ONE example was merely an example of a much weaker Doomsday taking attacks from a being more powerful than Surfer. It also wasn't the only example I gave. And I never said Doomsday was immune to energy attacks, I was merely pointing-out examples of him adapting to energy attacks. Doomsday's taken more force than Surfer can dish-out anyways, so if he adapts to Surfer's energy that would just make him particularly resistant on top of being able to dish-out that level of force.
Originally posted by quanchi112
So acting like Dd wasn't killed was false and wrong. I accept your concession. Just because we didn't see it on panel doesn't mean he didn't die.
Except, I wasn't talking about the part where time it's self has been ended. So the only "concession" is that I poorly worded what I was arguing. Doomsday did not die until time it's self ended.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I never said bacteria was his power source.
So how else would this have turned him into a smoldering skeleton? I mean if it was that easy, couldn't the Imperiex Probes have done it? Sure, they weren't as powerful as the real deal, but I'd think multiple Probes could've come together to have "expunged bacteria" against Doomsday, if it were that easy. I mean Hell, by your argument, DEATH OF SUPERMAN could've been avoided by dumping bleach and rubbing alcohol on Doomsday. So you're saying that Doomsday's Kryptonite is anti-bacterial soap? Good thing I'm a germaphobe, if I ever come across Doomsday all I need to do is run to my stockpile of Dial.
Originally posted by quanchi112
In terms of feats and power Surfer is leaps and bounds more impressive than the Radiant. Thor didn't ko the Surfer with a punch either. Thor used his hammer and power as well. Thor being more powerful than Doomsday factors in not just pure strength. He didn't just use his fists, sport.
And Surfer being more powerful than Radiant is relevant to H/P Doomsday how? And I think I've seen Thor KO Surfer with his fists. Granted I could be mistaken, but even if I'm wrong, it's not the only example I have.
Originally posted by quanchi112
If you wouldn't waste your time uploading tear gas Hulk pics maybe I could quit laughing. This is all due to how you spend your free time.
Did you just defend that you were giggling like a Japanophile schoolgirl? If you did, maybe you should worry about yourself more than other people "wasting" their time.
Originally posted by quanchi112
He wasn't ko'd by Thor's fists. Thor was using his hammer and his awesome power as well.
Too bad for you that, even if you're correct that Thor has never KO'ed Surfer by just punching him, that it's not the only example I gave. When you largely ignored the other examples I gave.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I mean Superman was knocked senseless by Kalibak. Believe me if you want to post humiliating scans I am your guy. 🙂 What about that time Zod broke his jaw.
Oh c'mon Quanchi, I thought you were better than this. Your very question was for examples(well actually you said "one example"😉 of Surfer doing poorly against a brick, and there's a scan of Surfer being KOed by a literal brick. How could I resist?
Plus, this shows bad judgement on your end. You think Superman being beaten by Kalibak or his jaw broken by Zod compares to a brick to the head? And if you want humiliating examples, I've got 4 words for you: "Thanos versus Squirrel Girl." That should end it.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You want to give him unseen abilities in a comic. That's biased. I argue on what I read I just don't make up scenarios in my head. I'm objective you aren't, teargas. 😂
Doomsday has the power of "adaptive evolution." Meaning he can develop new abilities as he needs them. It doesn't guarantee he'd develop it, but for you to say he couldn't or say I'm giving him unseen abilities(when I'm merely pointing-out what a POWER HE HAS could do) is just wrong.
Originally posted by carver9
You are clearly missing the point. Superman compliments mean sh**. It's not the fact that Superman lost to the character, its Superman admitting on panel that this character was much more faster than him. A Superman actually using his powers would blitz the hell out of Shadow Dragon. Like I said, I don't listen to anything Superman say about someone's speed, strength or durability. How many time has Superman said "this is the strongest guy I've ever faced"? How many times has Superman said "his speed match mine or he is fast, I couldnt even react"?Superman is just a guy who underestimates himself and even when push comes to shove, he holds back.
The irony astounds me.
Just went through the first few pages of this and I am seeing hypocrisy on behalf of the DC lot.
When Hulk fights people like Gladiator and Sentry it's called PIS and CIS, but when DOS Doomsday does similar a similar thing, without anything else to back up him being a speedster, then that is accepted as Doomsday having good enough combat speed to fight speedsters 🙄
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just went through the first few pages of this and I am seeing hypocrisy on behalf of the DC lot.When Hulk fights people like Gladiator and Sentry it's called PIS and CIS, but when DOS Doomsday does similar a similar thing, without anything else to back up him being a speedster, then that is accepted as Doomsday having good enough combat speed to fight speedsters 🙄
It would be hypocrisy if they were the same thing, but they aren't.
And Doomsday has feats.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just went through the first few pages of this and I am seeing hypocrisy on behalf of the DC lot.When Hulk fights people like Gladiator and Sentry it's called PIS and CIS, but when DOS Doomsday does similar a similar thing, without anything else to back up him being a speedster, then that is accepted as Doomsday having good enough combat speed to fight speedsters 🙄
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When Hulk fights people like Gladiator and Sentry it's called PIS and CIS, but when DOS Doomsday does similar a similar thing, without anything else to back up him being a speedster, then that is accepted as Doomsday having good enough combat speed to fight speedsters 🙄
So if you had it your way - the "non-hypocritical" way, Hulk would have Superman's level of speed? Is that right? See, when you make comments like that, you better be ready to say "yes" here otherwise you look silly.
Just answer that for now, then we can compare the quality of evidences for each case. I'll give you a hint - not even close (read the thread).
These people suggesting he is just an equal to Hulk have only continued to carry on this many pages because of an adnauseum logical fallacy. Trying to measure a cherry-picked scan or two against the entire body of work and all the arguments being cemented repeatedly against them from the beginning in a clear case of intentional obfuscation. Using clearly wild comparisons, ignoring all the evidence that can't be twisted to support their preconceived notion of what they feel it -should- be, rather than what evidence suggests it is.
The fact of the matter is, in DOS, in only a handful of issues, his speed was stated over and over, a dozen or more times. Writers intent is VERY clear. Again, in Hunter/Prey, in only a couple prestige issues his speed was again mentioned over and over, and shown that he could crawl from the ground, run a length of field, and blitz Darkseid before he could even completely turn his head around. A man who up to that point in time had zero problems dealing with Superman's speed. Again in the follow-up story where Brainiac actually steals him from the end of H/P[same body, power, etc, just with Brainiac's mind], his speed is again a factor, and finally see that even Flash is unable to escape him when he first appears and is KOed. Later again when the league confronts him, Flash again is leaving massive trails rolling in at Superspeed behind him[only a few feet back], and is unable to get there in between which Brainy/Doomsday grabs Wonder Woman, ties her up with her own lasso, then spins her around and collapses Flash as he approaches using her as a weapon. Even during the story of battling the Khunds, a couple guys see him from a distance rampaging and the very next panel is his fist smashing one of the guys faces in.
Just because someone can come up with a few times in 60 years of history of someone claiming Hulk is quick and surprised them, doesn't remove all the times he was made to look foolish by faster characters, including all the way down to characters Spiderman, Captain America, and Wolverine.
Doomsday up until the laughable semi-intelligent fire-breathing abomination of a Doomsday never had trouble with anyone's speed, and never did after that either.
And even still, none of this removes what is clearly writers intent, despite not leaving afterimages or blurring in panels, or a lack of feats concerning a character who has only a few appearances in history.....in the space of a literal handful of comics we're reminded of him being faster, stronger and more savage than everyone else- repeatedly.
While you can try to reason away this scan, or that, or say this or that is only character claims, you can't begin to disclaim the entire body of work, dozens of mentionings by characters, narration and likewise visual representation in combat in only a very few issues.
I dare anyone to find a miniseries for the Hulk where he was not only visually overrunning nearly everyone before they react, but the characters[many of them with superspeed at that] and narration are both suggesting he's too fast to counter repeatedly until the end of the arc.
If you can't, you must concede.
Simply as that.
Put up the goods or forget it.
Originally posted by abhilegendHulk does not have a history of being a "slow brute". He has always had a history of being very fast for his size. Just FYI.
Hulk has a lot of history portraying him a slow brute, doomsday was created to be fast. Has anyone before doomsday rex has speedblitzed doomsday? Hulk has been speedblitzed by many people many times.
