Darth Bane w/Orbalisks Versus Jedi Academy Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes in that regard. It just doesn't make sense otherwise how Palpatine could dominate him the first time and then lose the second time unless she was helping him.

Makes as much sense as Dooku dominating Anakin earlier in the fight, then getting dominated himself later on in the same fight.

Luke could have been "In the Zone" in the second fight thanks to Leia lifting the cloud of the darkside from his mind.

What really wouldn't make sense is how Padawan Leia would have the ability to aid Luke in a lightsaber fight by just standing there boosting his power.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Everyone here, including Nephys, could tell you consistently what the scans the good Doctor provided, indicate.

What everyone here thinks is not canon proof.

I've been on and off on these boards for years, and even up until recently pretty much everyone here was of the opinion that Obi-Wan as of CW-ROTS would completely annihilate Darth Maul in a Saber duel, and that him tooling General Grievous was a feat that makes him a top tier saber duelist in league with Count Dooku and even Mace Windu!

Clearly the CW Animation has proven wrong on more than one occasion what everyone here thinks and what they see as indications.

There's no proof Luke had a power boost from Leia. At most he had a power boost from inside himself, but thanks to Leia aiding his mental state.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
He is pretty much always right - at least when I've seen him debate. He knows alot about Jedi/Sith lore, and his viewpoints are spot-on.

He was frustrated about people's over-hyping of early-Luke, and I share that frustration.

His viewpoints were right and correct on the matter.

No his hatred to Luke blinds him. He says in that post ROTJ Luke was Owned?? At exactly what point was he Owned? When he killed all of Jabba's guards, when he defeated Boba Fett in 2 seconds, when he chopped off Vader's hand??

Oh yeah, he got owned by Palpatine's Lightning, without the aid of his Lightsaber. Lol like he's the only one who would get owned in that situation.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I can tell you must be new to Star Wars.

Don't mess with me kid. I was reading Dark Empire before there were Star Wars Prequels. Yes Dark Empire is that old btw. So don't expect everything to make perfect sense in line with the SW Prequels.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'll break it down for you: Some Force-users have latent powers, that even as Padawans or even Initiate's they can utilize and have surprising skill with.

Obviously, Leia had a latent talent with a form of Battle Meditation, as indicated.

Asking why Obi-wan didn't do the same thing is redundant, as he obviously didn't have the same latent talent.

I would prefer you not tell me what's obvious, and instead give me canon proof that Leia has the ability to boost someone's force power in a way that gives them such a HUGE Boost in Saber Combat.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Okay, and without it, he would be a corpse.

/Thread.

Wow so the Force Power boost from a Padawan was sooo huge, that it takes Luke from not having a chance to defeating Palpatine. Yeah sure.

Either way the point is all moot. Even if he did it with a force power boost from Leia (unlikely), then still Luke with his padawan tooled the strongest and most powerful version of the Most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Not bad for someone who Jaunus basically calls a novice who got owned 😂

There is no canon source that outright says Luke received a boost from Leia. Sometimes the narrator does not have to point out the obvious for us to see what's going on in a story, especially in comics. Leia's glowing and her stating that she was already joining her powers with Luke's, along with the fact that Luke was easily defeated by Palpatine just prior, seems like pretty good proof that Leia somehow had a hand in Luke's victory over Palpatine. Most likely it was Leia aiding Luke in tapping into is own potential, but that's kinda irrelevant in this thread.

However, DP, you are right, Luke is far from a weakling in DE. He absorbs fire power from an AT-AT walker and sends the machine crashing down with TK, he destroys war droids with the wave of his hand, and pretty much force owns just about every dark side adept he faces and even crushes two of them with a huge Vader statue that he topples over with the force.

Good to see you Sidious66. I was beginning to think everyone who used to be here had left the verses forum.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is no canon source that outright says Luke received a boost from Leia. Sometimes the narrator does not have to point out the obvious for us to see what's going on in a story, especially in comics. Leia's glowing and her stating that she was already joining her powers with Luke's, along with the fact that Luke was easily defeated by Palpatine just prior, seems like pretty good proof that Leia somehow had a hand in Luke's victory over Palpatine. Most likely it was Leia aiding Luke in tapping into is own potential, but that's kinda irrelevant in this thread.

I never denied any of this. And Im also inclined to think Leia was helping Luke tap into his own potential, especially from this line:

AS LEIA'S INTENSITY CONTINUES TO UNLOCK UNEXPECTED RESOURCES IN LUKE...

Also even with the aid of a Padawan, to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history is a HUGE feat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, DP, you are right, Luke is far from a weakling in DE. He absorbs fire power from an AT-AT walker and sends the machine crashing down with TK, he destroys war droids with the wave of his hand, and pretty much force owns just about every dark side adept he faces and even crushes two of them with a huge Vader statue that he topples over with the force.

👆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Makes as much sense as Dooku dominating Anakin earlier in the fight, then getting dominated himself later on in the same fight.

Luke could have been "In the Zone" in the second fight thanks to Leia lifting the cloud of the darkside from his mind.

What really wouldn't make sense is how Padawan Leia would have the ability to aid Luke in a lightsaber fight by just standing there boosting his power.

Exactly, Leia and Anakin helped Luke in the fight, and without it, he'd be dead. That's the main point, here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What everyone here thinks is not canon proof.

I've been on and off on these boards for years, and even up until recently pretty much everyone here was of the opinion that Obi-Wan as of CW-ROTS would completely annihilate Darth Maul in a Saber duel, and that him tooling General Grievous was a feat that makes him a top tier saber duelist in league with Count Dooku and even Mace Windu!

Clearly the CW Animation has proven wrong on more than one occasion what everyone here thinks and what they see as indications.

There's no proof Luke had a power boost from Leia. At most he had a power boost from inside himself, but thanks to Leia aiding his mental state.

The point is, whether Luke had the power inside himself, unlocked by Leia, or Leia joining her Light side power with his - she is the primary reason he survived the duel, without it, Palpy would have raped him. Understand that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

No his hatred to Luke blinds him. He says in that post ROTJ Luke was Owned?? At exactly what point was he Owned? When he killed all of Jabba's guards,

He didn't kill all of Jabba's men single-handedly, Duh. Most of them died when the Hutt's sail-barge exploded. But it doesn't say anything for his melee-skill.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

when he defeated Boba Fett in 2 seconds,

Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett. A half-blind Han Solo accidentally pwned him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

when he chopped off Vader's hand??

Due to Vader holding back.

Just imagine what Vader during TFU against Luke would have been like.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Oh yeah, he got owned by Palpatine's Lightning, without the aid of his Lightsaber. Lol like he's the only one who would get owned in that situation.

He couldn't have done anything, even with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Don't mess with me kid. I was reading Dark Empire before there were Star Wars Prequels. Yes Dark Empire is that old btw. So don't expect everything to make perfect sense in line with the SW Prequels.

Well you've done a fine job of looking like a newb.

Yeah - I'll mess with you. I smell blood and your opinions smack of not having adequate knowledge of the material at hand.

I was reading Star Wars novels before any of the Prequel stuff came out as well, and I researched Jedi and Sith lore backwards and forwards for years.

If you're supposed to be knowledgeable enough to tell me to back off, then you shouldn't be arguing with my viewpoints in the first place since they make sense, and you can't figure out basic concepts, like latent Force powers and why some people have them and others don't.

It's obvious without Leia's help that Luke would have died against Palpatine - if you don't agree with that then you don't deserve to be here debating with me.

If you can agree with it, then be quiet and move on. That simple.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I would prefer you not tell me what's obvious, and instead give me canon proof that Leia has the ability to boost someone's force power in a way that gives them such a HUGE Boost in Saber Combat.

You've already apparently provided yourself with that proof.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Wow so the Force Power boost from a Padawan was sooo huge, that it takes Luke from not having a chance to defeating Palpatine. Yeah sure.

Either way the point is all moot. Even if he did it with a force power boost from Leia (unlikely), then still Luke with his padawan tooled the strongest and most powerful version of the Most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Not bad for someone who Jaunus basically calls a novice who got owned 😂

Yeah - except one problem - you can't have those types of bragging rights when it took you and another combatant to achieve that victory.

That's not impressive for Luke and doesn't speak of his lightsaber skill.

Remove Leia from the equation - and guess what you have?

Someone who got owned.

(Drops the Mic)

Out.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Exactly, Leia and Anakin helped Luke in the fight, and without it, he'd be dead. That's the main point, here.

The point is, whether Luke had the power inside himself, unlocked by Leia, or Leia joining her Light side power with his - she is the primary reason he survived the duel, without it, Palpy would have raped him.

No one's denying this. Point is even with the aid of his padawan, he defeated the most powerful version of the most powerful sith lord in history. That's obviously no small feat, and it's serious lowballing to make out that it is.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Understand that.

🙄

Originally posted by Battlemaster
He didn't kill all of Jabba's men single-handedly, Duh. Most of them died when the Hutt's sail-barge exploded. But it doesn't say anything for his melee-skill.

Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett. A half-blind Han Solo accidentally pwned him.

Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett?
Yeah it was Boba Fett who put Luke on the floor twice right? And yeah a blind Han Solo accidentally killed him while Luke was battling the rest of Jabba's crew.. What's your point there..

You know if you and Jaunus want to make a serious case for the "Luke is a novice" argument, then you'd do well not to lowball.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Due to Vader holding back.

In the Saber fight? Speculation.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Just imagine what Vader during TFU against Luke would have been like.

Makes Luke beating him down even more impressive.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
He couldn't have done anything, even with a lightsaber.

And what Obi-Wan Kenobi could? Could any Jedi Council member with the exception of Yoda and Mace? No. So you've got no point here.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Well you've done a fine job of looking like a newb.

I actually like you Battlemaster. And Im not immature enough to get into a rant with you on this or all the other insults and accusations you've thrown my way in your post.

But know this: Your needless insults are a typical sign of someone either:

a) Immature. Or
b) Losing an argument.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
You've already apparently provided yourself with that proof.

Yes I did. I actually provided proof. Not baseless speculation and apparent indications.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah - except one problem - you can't have those types of bragging rights when it took you and another combatant to achieve that victory.

That's not impressive for Luke and doesn't speak of his lightsaber skill.

Remove Leia from the equation - and guess what you have?

Someone who got owned.

(Drops the Mic)

Out.

And you still haven't addressed the main issue. That even with the moral and psychological support of his padawan, Luke defeating the most powerful version of the most powerful sith lord in history is an uber feat!

You think Jedi Knight Anakin could have done that with the aid of Ashoka??! Lol

Or even Count Dooku with the aid of Ventress. And this is Ventress just being in the room meditating and giving moral support to Count Dooku LOL.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No one's denying this. Point is even with the aid of his padawan, he defeated the most powerful version of the most powerful sith lord in history. That's obviously no small feat, and it's serious lowballing to make out that it is.

You don't understand?

Requiring someone elses assistance to take down an enemy does not make you tough.

If you got into a fight with a really tough guy, and your 15-year old sister jumped into the fight and merely positioned herself behind his legs for you to push him - and you went forward and punched the guy, somewhat ineffectually, but it caused him to trip backwards over your little sister and smack the back of his skull against the pavement, knocking him out - that doesn't give you the bragging rights to raise your hands in victory and declare the defeat of a guy who would have beaten you otherwise, a great feat.

It's only a big feat if Luke is able to take Sidious alone - everyone else here understands that if he has a minion giving him power or aid otherwise that enables the win, it's not a legit win - hence Jaunus's sarcasm.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

🙄

✅

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Luke didn't defeat Boba Fett?
Yeah it was Boba Fett who put Luke on the floor twice right? And yeah a blind Han Solo accidentally killed him while Luke was battling the rest of Jabba's crew.. What's your point there..

You know if you and Jaunus want to make a serious case for the "Luke is a novice" argument, then you'd do well not to lowball.

If a blind smuggler nearly kicked Boba Fett to hell, that pretty much indicates Fett wasn't having a good day, period.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

In the Saber fight? Speculation.

Even in a saber fight - remember, Vader wanted Luke to join him and destroy Palpatine - he was toying with Luke through the fight, not willing to actually hurt him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Makes Luke beating him down even more impressive.

- No, TFU showed the true destructive prowess of Vader in melee combat, and if we placed Luke against that type of a Vader - his real self, and not his soft "I'm your daddy and I don't want to really hurt you, but I hate Sidious and want you to stand with me and take him out" self, if we placed him against his real self it would be a one-sided slaughter.
Luke would be shredded almost gorily to pieces with said pieces being TKed all over the room.

Beating down a softer version of your dad, unwilling to unleash his true power and potential is nothing but a free pass.

Kind of like you needing your sister's help to take down a tougher fighter.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And what Obi-Wan Kenobi could? Could any Jedi Council member with the exception of Yoda and Mace? No. So you've got no point here.

No, I believe your earlier point was that Luke could.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I actually like you Battlemaster. And Im not immature enough to get into a rant with you on this or all the other insults and accusations you've thrown my way in your post.

But know this: Your needless insults are a typical sign of someone either:

a) Immature. Or
b) Losing an argument.

They aren't insults. They're observations.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yes I did. I actually provided proof. Not baseless speculation and apparent indications.

No, you agreed with what I had earlier said about Luke needing help to win a fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And you still haven't addressed the main issue. That even with the moral and psychological support of his padawan, Luke defeating the most powerful version of the most powerful sith lord in history is an uber feat!

You think Jedi Knight Anakin could have done that with the aid of Ashoka??! Lol

Or even Count Dooku with the aid of Ventress. And this is Ventress just being in the room meditating and giving moral support to Count Dooku LOL.

I think it was implied to be more than just moral support - as Luke had had his ass almost soundly kicked the last time.

And no, Luke needing someone elses aid in defeating an opponant who would otherwise crush him, is not impressive.

You would probably think finding a weak and hungry Hobo, getting him drunk and cutting off one of his legs, and then beating him afterwards in a fight is impressive.

None of these things are.

If you can't beat a tougher fighter by yourself, it's a free pass.

And that was pretty much the majority of Luke's life before NJO.

(Picks the Mic up and let's it drop, again.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Good to see you Sidious66. I was beginning to think everyone who used to be here had left the verses forum.

🙂

I still get on

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I never denied any of this. And Im also inclined to think Leia was helping Luke tap into his own potential, especially from this line:

AS LEIA'S INTENSITY CONTINUES TO UNLOCK UNEXPECTED RESOURCES IN LUKE...

Also even with the aid of a Padawan, to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history is a HUGE feat.

Luke's potential surpasses that of Darth Sidious, so even if we are to assume that Leia only unlocked Luke's own potential it's not surprising that he defeated Sidious. But.... it's not something Luke could have achieved on his own. In fact, that is one of Luke's most impressive feats ever and there are not many times that he's out-done himself here.

Truth is - Darth Sidious at that point was Luke's superior in every single way and Luke did not even come close to approaching him. If it wasn't for Leia helping Luke to unlock his potential he would have been annihilated. So unless circumstances are exactly the same in this thread and Luke has Leia in a corner helping him to unlock his own dormant power, Bane wins.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
You don't understand?

Requiring someone elses assistance to take down an enemy does not make you tough.

If you got into a fight with a really tough guy, and your 15-year old sister jumped into the fight and merely positioned herself behind his legs for you to push him - and you went forward and punched the guy, somewhat ineffectually, but it caused him to trip backwards over your little sister and smack the back of his skull against the pavement, knocking him out - that doesn't give you the bragging rights to raise your hands in victory and declare the defeat of a guy who would have beaten you otherwise, a great feat.

If I can take down Mike Tyson with the aid of a 9 year old girl giving me moral and psychological support that wouldn't impress you??

Yep you've so failed at this argument.

Im afraid your the one whose comprehension skills are lacking.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It's only a big feat if Luke is able to take Sidious alone - everyone else here understands that if he has a minion giving him power or aid otherwise that enables the win, it's not a legit win - hence Jaunus's sarcasm.

Luke Skywalker Jedi Master defeating the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history, with the aid of his complete novice sister, is not an impressive feat??

As Obi-Wan would say: "Well then you are lost!"

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If a blind smuggler nearly kicked Boba Fett to hell, that pretty much indicates Fett wasn't having a good day, period.

This shows your complete lack of common sense. Either that or your blind arrogance and refusal to acknowledge anything ROTJ Luke did as a nice feat.

Boba was concentrating on Luke, while people were panicking and firing all around. His attention was not on the blind smuggler at all.

On the other hand with his FULL attention on Luke, twice mind you, and with Luke's attention elsewhere, Boba goes down to Luke in 2 seconds. Then he goes on to kill the rest of Jabba's guards who likely consist of some of the deadliest killers in the galaxy.

Saying it was just a bad day for him is a seriously desperate argument. Oh yeah Lulz Luke was clearly just having a bad day when he lost to the Emporer! Haha!

Prove Boba wasn't on form the 2 times he attacked Luke or bring up your game. For someone called Battlemaster I would have expected you to have brought your game up by now.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Even in a saber fight - remember, Vader wanted Luke to join him and destroy Palpatine - he was toying with Luke through the fight, not willing to actually hurt him.

LOL @ toying with him. So when he got kicked onto his rear he was toying? Or when he got beat down to the floor and got his arm chopped off he was toying?

Do you really think he wanted his arm chopped off.. How was he going to help Luke take down the Emporer with his arm chopped off?

Just like young Obi-Wan in a moment of rage briefly matched Darth Maul, the same way young Luke with short anger bursts matched and even surpassed Darth Vader. Deal with it and move on.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Kind of like you needing your sister's help to take down a tougher fighter.

You mean having your novice sister aid you in clearing your mind so you can go on to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history??

Yeah real lame that. You need to change your record. Your argument has failed on all levels. Seriously.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
They aren't insults. They're observations.

They're needless insults of a man/woman losing an argument. Grow up. Your being very childish. And that is a God's honest observation. If I wanted to insult you the whole of my last 2 posts would have been filled with them.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I think it was implied to be more than just moral support - as Luke had had his ass almost soundly kicked the last time.

You've been explained this at least 3 times now and have been given proof! You claim to be so SW EU knowledgeable and yet have nothing to go on but baseless speculation and what you see as indications and implications.

She aided him in reaching his peak mental state and his peak connection to the force. The line in DE makes that clear. I've already posted it.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
And no, Luke needing someone elses aid in defeating an opponant who would otherwise crush him, is not impressive.

That's because your comprehension skills are lacking and you didn't understand the story.

He almost got crushed in his confused, half way to the dark side, mental state.

And how impressive the feat is depends on who it is who is aiding him. Fact is it was a complete novice padawan, who in her whole career as a Jedi never even becomes a top tier Jedi.

It was a clear headed Luke who did the vast majority of work defeating DE Sidious. Again Deal with it and move on. Try a debate you actually know something about.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If you can't beat a tougher fighter by yourself, it's a free pass.

And here again the broken record just keeps repeating itself

If all you need is the is the aid of a complete novice padawan to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the moist powerful sith lord of all time.

And all you need them to do is just stand there and aid you in clearing your mind, and helping you reach your own potential, then yeah that is damn impressive.

Now I know you like to ignore points you have no answer to so I will ask you one last time.

Could Jedi Knight Anakin with the aid of Ashoka defeat DE Palpatine, or even ROTS Palpatine for that matter??

Could Count Dooku with the aid of Ventress(just meditating and giving him moral and psychological support lol) defeat DE Sidious, or even ROTS Sidious?? Edit: And let's not forget Ventress is far far superior to Padawan Leia in every single possible way.

If not then do you admit DE Luke is far far more impressive than both Jedi Knight Anakin and Count Dooku??

Answer the question. If you can't then stop wasting my time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Luke's potential surpasses that of Darth Sidious, so even if we are to assume that Leia only unlocked Luke's own potential it's not surprising that he defeated Sidious. But.... it's not something Luke could have achieved on his own. In fact, that is one of Luke's most impressive feats ever and there are not many times that he's out-done himself here.

Of course he could. She only unlocked resources inside himself. Only aided him in achieving what he was already capable of doing.

"Always remember your focus determines your reality" Qui-Gon Jinn TPM.

And so what if it was one of Luke's most impressive feats Sidious66?(though I am glad someone here admits it was impressive)..

I remember you always arguing for Mace's CWmini force wave feats as being legit even though he never repeated anything like that again. Like ever..

The reason why Luke won second fight is much simpler. In first fight he was on dark side. How many experience has he got in the dark side comparing to Emperor's? He was beginning Sith apprentice. How suitable dark side is for his personality? Not really, he is too kind, Sith out of him is rather lame. Palpatine easily used his emotions against him. But in second fight he was on the lightside, using knowledge he learned over decade. Sidious didn't have control over lightside. Lightside is antimatter against Plapatine's powers.

Originally posted by Arhael
The reason why Luke won second fight is much simpler. In first fight he was on dark side. How many experience has he got in the dark side comparing to Emperor's? He was beginning Sith apprentice. How suitable dark side is for his personality? Not really, he is too kind, Sith out of him is rather lame. Palpatine easily used his emotions against him.

And he still managed to Force push him to the floor. I don't believe anyone but Yoda has ever done that. Says a lot about his Force Powers.

Originally posted by Arhael
But in second fight he was on the lightside, using knowledge he learned over decade. Sidious didn't have control over lightside. Lightside is antimatter against Plapatine's powers.

Yep. Luke says it at the end after learning his lesson "No one Jedi can defeat the darkside..."

He wasn't talking about the power of palpatine, but the temptation of the darkside and how it messes with your head. He needed Leia just to remind him who he is and to clear his mind.

Requiring someone elses assistance to take down an enemy does not make you tough.

Even in Dark Nest, when Luke was long ago Grand Master in his prime, was getting his ass kicked by Lomi Plo more, than ones. But then he got read of his doubts and what next? Next *WHOOSH* *WHOOSH* and Unu'Thul without arm unconscious, then *WHOOSH* *WHOOSH* and Lomi Plo is in four pieces.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And he still managed to Force push him to the floor. I don't believe anyone but Yoda has ever done that. Says a lot about his Force Powers.

Yep. Luke says it at the end after learning his lesson "No one Jedi can defeat the darkside..."

He wasn't talking about the power of palpatine, but the temptation of the darkside and how it messes with your head. He needed Leia just to remind him who he is and to clear his mind.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course he could. She only unlocked resources inside himself. Only aided him in achieving what he was already capable of doing.

He wasn't capable of doing it. That's the point. If he was capable, Leia's battle meditation would have been unnecessary.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"Always remember your focus determines your reality" Qui-Gon Jinn TPM.

I didn't see Qui Gon bringing 9 year old Anakin along to fight Darth Maul, telling him to focus, just because he [Anakin] had the potential or unlocked resources to slaughter Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And so what if it was one of Luke's most impressive feats Sidious66?

It doesn't make sense for Luke to easily defeat Palpatine in a less powerful incarnation and then have a hard time with Lumiya in a more powerful incarnation. It was a one time feat he acheived. Either it was an extreme case of PIS or Leia helped Luke out using battle meditation. All evidents point to her using battle meditation.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I remember you always arguing for Mace's CWmini force wave feats as being legit even though he never repeated anything like that again. Like ever..

That's something I wouldn't put past Mace Windu, no.

Windu was second only to Yoda on the council and was called the deadliest man in the galaxy in The New Essential Guide to Characters. Windu has plenty of other feats to make his showing in CWmini believable, such as using the force to easily push a separatist walker off a cliff and then later reducing several battle droids to scrap with a force push (something Savage didn't even do with his rage inhanced force wave). He also manages to defeat a sith lord who was capable of speed blitzing 3 jedi masters, who had reputations of being among the best swordsmen the order had ever produced, in seconds. Windu didn't just use one force wave to to solo the entire army on dantooine, no, he used a combination of his force powers, his speed, and his deadly skills in hand-to-hand combat to acheive his victory, which probably did take a lot longer than 5 minutes to do.

Windu was a straight up badass warrior, but that's another argument. And it can't even be compared to Luke getting his ass dropped and mind dominated by Palpatine one day and then easily defeating him the next.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's not about requiring assistance. Luke was still inexperienced. You learn on your mistakes.
If every character was defeating his nemesis just like that there wouldn't be good story.

Even in Dark Nest, when Luke was long ago Grand Master in his prime, was getting his ass kicked by Lomi Plo more, than ones. But then he got read of his doubts and what next? Next *WHOOSH* *WHOOSH* and Unu'Thul without arm unconscious, then *WHOOSH* *WHOOSH* and Lomi Plo is in four pieces.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He wasn't capable of doing it. That's the point. If he was capable, Leia's battle meditation would have been unnecessary.

People still have to provide proof Leia did any kind of battle meditation for the lightsaber fight. Her glowing a bit in a couple of scenes just doesn't cut it. That was the artisitc style. The first time Luke ignites his Lightsaber his whole body is glowing.. So what?

She was a padawan, what battle meditation did she know that could Boost Luke in a Lightsaber fight.

Oh and you will notice there is no glow when "WE KNOW" she is joining her powers with his to help stop the Force Storm.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It doesn't make sense for Luke to easily defeat Palpatine in a less powerful incarnation and then have a hard time with Lumiya in a more powerful incarnation.

You mean like it doesn't make sense for Anakin to lose to Kenobi after tooling Count Dooku?? Shit like that happens in SW, especially with the Skywalkers. As Zamano pointed out, Luke is a Jedi and doesn't exactly go all out constantly.

So there's no contradiction there.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It was a one time feat he acheived. Either it was an extreme case of PIS or Leia helped Luke out using battle meditation. All evidents point to her using battle meditation.

Theres absolutely no eveidence pointing to battle meditation. And no it wasn't PIS. DE Luke was just that powerful.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's something I wouldn't put past Mace Windu, no.

Well you've got double standards in your argument there. Mace has never shown Power on that scale again. (Force tk wise). And that is certainly a much bigger inconsistency than the one your talking about with Luke, because Mace did not do that feat on Geonosis in AOTC, which is the one time he really should have.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu was second only to Yoda on the council and was called the deadliest man in the galaxy in The New Essential Guide to Characters.

Lol and what do you think Luke is in his time? He's the top dog. Not no.2.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu has plenty of other feats to make his showing in CWmini believable, such as using the force to easily push a separatist walker off a cliff

Pushing the stationery AT-TE off a cliff hardly compares to Force waves which take out hundreds of droids in one blast LOL.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and then later reducing several battle droids to scrap with a force push (something Savage didn't even do with his rage inhanced force wave).

Again several doesn't compare to several hundred. Like not at all.

As for Savage-this isn't the thread to compare but just do the math. Mace crushed 2 Destroyer Droids (with their shields down) and several battle droids.

Savage put down 3 Destroyer droids (with their shields up all of whom were simultaneously firing at Savage) plus several battle droids and several regular droids (also firing at him).

But what Really made Savage's Force wave impressive is it also put 2 Jedi on the floor with weapons deignited. I would be surprised if Mace Windu or Count Dooku could do just the Jedi part in one Force Push (considering who the Jedi were).

But that's for another thread.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He also manages to defeat a sith lord who was capable of speed blitzing 3 jedi masters, who had reputations of being among the best swordsmen the order had ever produced, in seconds.

LOL That's what we're talking about! Luke did the same thing to a more powerful version of the same sith lord!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu didn't just use one force wave to to solo the entire army on dantooine, no, he used a combination of his force powers, his speed, and his deadly skills in hand-to-hand combat to acheive his victory, which probably did take a lot longer than 5 minutes to do.

He took out a good 50 droids with each force wave. He's never shown anything like that again. So you can;t use the argument that we don't see Luke constantly crushing people therefore he could not have defeated DE Sidious in Lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu was a straight up badass warrior, but that's another argument.

I never denied this. He's one of 2 people as of the Movies who can even compete with the Emporer (as per George Lucas's own words). Im talking about double standards used against DE Luke.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And it can't even be compared to Luke getting his ass dropped and mind dominated by Palpatine one day and then easily defeating him the next.

Believe it or not what happened there actually makes perfect sense. About to address it in my next post.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Not the point.

Before Leia helped, Sidious was essentially having his way with Luke.

Then when they fought a second time, Leia used Battle Meditation and focused her raw Force power with Anakin, and through writer's-fiat showed Sidious what the ever-embracing warmth of the Light side could do.

This allowed Luke to gain the upper hand, and spare himself another one-sided ass beating from the Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes in that regard. It just doesn't make sense otherwise how Palpatine could dominate him the first time and then lose the second time unless she was helping him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
it can't even be compared to Luke getting his ass dropped and mind dominated by Palpatine one day and then easily defeating him the next.

Ok lads since Im probably the only one who found his old copy and read the whole of DE(and the handbook) again since this debate began I will enlighten you with something new that everyone has completely missed.

Luke and DE Sidious's first fight:

First it wasn't a complete stomp like people here are making out. You can't just look at the pictures with a Graphic Novel, it's also a novel so you have to read the words as well.

It wasn't just one blow of Sidious that put Luke down (as the pictures alone present), there were a few blow(S) that Luke parried off first, and what we do see from the picture is one of those blows was a Saber Lock in which they were both locked with what seemed to be pretty equal strength.

And then there's the fact that at the start of the fight Luke Force Smacked DE Sidious to the wall. (How many Jedi do you think are even capable of that??) It says a lot about Luke Force Powers.

So the fight did take effort from DE Sidious (the most powerful incarnation of the sith lord) and was by no means a 2 second complete stomp. But yes he clearly did win.

Now here's the part everyone has completely missed:

That first fight was on Byss, a world described by the graphic novel as being "Entirely Eveloped in the Power of the Dark Side"..

So it was much like Vjun, where Dooku challenged Yoda for a second time, and put up a MUCH better duel against the Grand Master of the Jedi.

The second fight however where Luke fought DE Sidious (again the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord ever) in a Lightsaber fight, after having Leia completely free Luke's mind from the Dark Side..

Luke won it completely fair and square! That's that. End of the story.

I know this doesn't compare to the effort Battlemaster put in (getting out old posts made by DE Luke haters on the subject) but going by the source material this is exactly what happened.

DE Luke was very very powerful. If he dyed down in power after that, it's most likely due to mental restrcitions he's put on himself.

Good job DP. 👆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Now here's the part everyone has completely missed:

That first fight was on Byss, a world described by the graphic novel as being "Entirely Eveloped in the Power of the Dark Side"..

🤨

This detail makes a BIG difference IMHO.

Apparently DE Sids can take down Luke at a Dark Side nexus, but without the aid of it...completely different story.

EDIT