Darth Bane w/Orbalisks Versus Jedi Academy Luke Skywalker

I don't think this is as incontrovertible as you are painting it. From Gideon's essay:

The last of Palpatine’s truly large scale manipulations of the Force is his manipulation of his private Imperial throneworld: the planet Byss. According to Byss and the Core Worlds, Byss was once a “lush and fertile planet that was used as a lure to attract willing followers to settle in the Core. Over time, the Emperor’s dark side energies slowly corrupted the world and transformed it into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy.”

(Frankly, I like your theory, but let's make sure to look at all of the evidence.)

Well, considering what we have seen from other Sith Lords/Dark Siders on Dark Force Nexus', I think we can fairly say that it played a very major role in the victory.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
This detail makes a BIG difference IMHO.

Apparently DE Sids can take down Luke at a Dark Side nexus, but without the aid of it...completely different story.

I would agree, except for the fact that Palpatine himself was desrcibed as dark side nexus (DE endnotes). If memory serves me correctly I believe Leia mentioned that The Eclipse Star Destroyer was very strong with the dark side. So there goes the theory that Palpatine only acheived victory on Byss because of it's strong connection to the dark side. Although Luke was very powerful, he still lacked the proper training to be on Palpatine's level. Palpatine was more powerful, more skilled, and his mastery of the force was far beyond Luke's at that time.

If Luke only needed moral support from Leia like DP is saying, then why wasn't he able to defeat Palpatine on Byss? It wasn't like he was fully consumed by the dark side at that time. He at least had the will power to outright defy Palpatine. He even had a full advantage over Palpatine during their fight on Byss. Luke managed to force push an unarmed Palpatine, who wasn't even yet fully adjusted to his new clone body, and he still got owned.

This is basically how it went down on the Eclipse(their second fight):

Leia tries to convince a lost Luke to get a hold of himself. Him and Leia have some kinda telepathic communication between each other in which Luke calls out to her for help, telling her that he is far too gone in the dark side. And then suddenly, without warning, he's Luke again. So then Palpatine blasts Luke to the floor with lightning, Leia starts to glow and is just standing their posing like she's the "virgin Mary", and then Luke gets this surge of energy and easily defeats Palpatine in a lightsaber duel.

Either that was an extreme case of PIS or Leia used battle meditation to help Luke out. Either way none of it helps him in this thread. He is alone against a sith lord who is far more experienced with the force and his far more attuned to his own power than Luke is.

(I'm only going by memory at this moment. I no longer have a copy of DE 1. Someone had broke into my old residents and stole a lot of my packed stuff, which included some of my SW litarature, while I was in the process of moving. I might consult with Gideon to see if I can find anymore evidents on the matter.)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If I can take down Mike Tyson with the aid of a 9 year old girl giving me moral and psychological support that wouldn't impress you??

No, that would sound like the plotline to some cheesy blockbuster. 😬

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

I've so failed at this argument.

Im afraid my comprehension skills are lacking.

You're overlooking obvious things, so yeah. 🙄

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Luke Skywalker Jedi Master defeating the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history, with the aid of his complete novice sister, is not an impressive feat??

No, Genius. Not if he needs his little sister to do it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

As Obi-Wan would say: "Well then you are lost!"

I heavily doubt that. Jaunus shares my viewpoints and he easily one of the top tier debators here, and much above you.

If you can't see the inherent logic in our arguments, then it is you, who are lost.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

This shows your complete lack of common sense. Either that or your blind arrogance and refusal to acknowledge anything ROTJ Luke did as a nice feat.
Boba was concentrating on Luke, while people were panicking and firing all around. His attention was not on the blind smuggler at all.
On the other hand with his FULL attention on Luke, twice mind you, and with Luke's attention elsewhere, Boba goes down to Luke in 2 seconds. Then he goes on to kill the rest of Jabba's guards who likely consist of some of the deadliest killers in the galaxy.
Saying it was just a bad day for him is a seriously desperate argument. Oh yeah Lulz Luke was clearly just having a bad day when he lost to the Emporer! Haha!
Prove Boba wasn't on form the 2 times he attacked Luke or bring up your game. For someone called Battlemaster I would have expected you to have brought your game up by now.

I don't need to bring up a game, that already towers so far above yours.🙄

Luke in RotJ had the lightsaber prowess of Stevie Wonder in a batting cage - something everyone here knows very well.

Most of Jabba's guards weren't among the deadliest killers in the universe - if you knew your Star Wars lore like you're fond of pretending, you would know that.

From what I understand, Boba is at least on par with his dad - and if Jango had been in that fight, he would have picked off both Luke and Solo in a very short amount of time.

If you're supposed to be one of the very deadliest bounty hunters in the galaxy, and a half-blind guy who has been frozen for the last three years takes you out of commission - you know you aren't on a good roll.

Luke in RotJ sucks. Period. If he had fought Jango, he would have never made it off the planet.

Boba getting trashed by an unarmored, partially-disabled man with a pipe, says alot, considering most Mandalorians haven't been known to lose to people like that.

Go read up some history, and then ante' up, 'Tard. angel_not

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

LOL @ toying with him. So when he got kicked onto his rear he was toying? Or when he got beat down to the floor and got his arm chopped off he was toying?
Do you really think he wanted his arm chopped off.. How was he going to help Luke take down the Emporer with his arm chopped off?
Just like young Obi-Wan in a moment of rage briefly matched Darth Maul, the same way young Luke with short anger bursts matched and even surpassed Darth Vader. Deal with it and move on.

No, you'll have to deal with logic, first.

If Vader had wanted to stop Luke, he definitely could have.

Vader is leagues above Luke in skill and power. If Luke's Spaz-attack was really that great, then by your laughably pseudo-logic Luke could have attacked, say Starkiller or perhaps the Emperor that way, and won. 🙄

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You mean having your novice sister aid you in clearing your mind so you can go on to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the most powerful sith lord in history??Yeah real lame that. You need to change your record. Your argument has failed on all levels. Seriousy.

No, you fail even as you challenge the obvious. Leia using her power to aid Luke helps him win the fight - but it isn't an impressive win.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

They're needless insults of a man/woman losing an argument. Grow up. Your being very childish. And that is a God's honest observation. If I wanted to insult you the whole of my last 2 posts would have been filled with them.

I'm a woman, Genius.

And I'm the one who feels like they're debating a child - you refuse to see obvious facts.

And If I need to sit here and break everything down for you - then you need to go back to learning about Star Wars. Go hit the books.

If you don't need to do that, then we're done arguing. 🙂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

You've been explained this at least 3 times now and have been given poof! You claim to be so SW EU knowledgeable and yet have nothing to go on but baseless speculation and what you see as indications and implications.
She aided him in reaching his peak mental state and his peak connection to the force. The line in DE makes that clear. I've already posted it.

Yeah, and there are other Debators here who say otherwise, just as I do.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

That's because your comprehension skills are lacking and you didn't unerstand the tory.
He almost got crushed his confused, half way to the dark side, mental state.
And how impressive the feat is depends on who it is who is aiding him. Fact is it was a complete novice padawan, who in her whole career as a Jedi never even becomes a top tier Jedi.
It was a clear headed Luke who did the vast majority of work defeating DE Sidious. Again Deal with it and move on. Try a debate you actually know something about.

Luke needs his little sister to win a fight? Not impressive.

I understand the story.

Luke, even after having been trained under Sidious, still can't defeat him, and suddenly needs the help of his sister.

He gets the help and wins. Without it, he'd be dead. Nothing impressive here.

Go buy a box of tissues.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

And here again the broken record just keeps repeating itself
If all you need is the is the aid of a complete novice padawan to defeat the most powerful incarnation of the moist? powerful sith lord of all time.
And all you need them to do is just stand there and aid you in clearing your mind, and helping you reach your own potential, then yeah that is damn impressive.

No, that's not impressive, Idiot.

It's not impressive. You're in denial about something very obvious and that is if you need someone elses help to take down a foe, an impressive victory that does not make.

If you want to give props to Luke because you like him, then that's your prerogative.

But understand the position of your argument has no logic to it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Now I know you like to ignore poins you have no answer to so I will ask you won last time.

Could Jedi Knight Anakin with the aid of Ashoka defeat DE Palpatine, or even ROTS Palpatine for that matter??

Could Count Dooku with the aid of Ventress(just meditating and giving him moral and psychological support lol) defeat DE Sidious, or even ROTS Sidious?? [b]Edit: And let's not forget Ventress is far far superior to Padawan Leia in every single possible way.

If not then do you admit DE Luke is far far more impressive than both Jedi Knight Anakin and Count Dooku??

Answer the question. If you can't then stop wasting my slime. [/B]

Sure DE Sidious is more impressive than them - he didn't even need help in his fight against Luke. Which I suppose to you would be unimpressive.

Back in the early days of Star Wars, Luke and Leia were the magical wonder-twins of the Force - Leia joining her power to Luke's or giving him the win by magical-PIS win is just how things were written.

Nothing is impressive about it.

If victorious fights consisting of two people or more defeating a single person were considered highly impressive, then they would have tried that with the big Boxing fights of the 20th century.

But through common sense (which you don't seem to have) people know that isn't impressive.

Yeah, we've beaten a dead horse with this one.

You love Luke, and don't wish to give in to logic.

I've repeated the same obvious logic time and time again, and you keep going into denial.

Next you'll be saying that Luke losing to Ponda Baba in the Mos Eisley Cantina and then having Obi-wan jump in was impressive - that's fine.

We both have better things to do with our time, so you believe in what fulfills your happiness and maybe we'll see each other again in future debates. vampire

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Good job DP. 👆

🤨

This detail makes a BIG difference IMHO.

Apparently DE Sids can take down Luke at a Dark Side nexus, but without the aid of it...completely different story.

That really damages the concept of DE Sidious truly being the "most powerful Sith Lord in History" if he can only defeat someone at DE Luke's level, and with the help of a Dark side Nexus.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
That really damages the concept of DE Sidious truly being the "most powerful Sith Lord in History" if he can only defeat someone at DE Luke's level, and with the help of a Dark side Nexus.

OR...it proves that DE Luke was more powerful than we thought.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No, that would sound like the plotline to some cheesy blockbuster. 😬

You're overlooking obvious things, so yeah. 🙄

No, Genius. Not if he needs his little sister to do it.

I heavily doubt that. Jaunus shares my viewpoints and he easily one of the top tier debators here, and much above you.

If you can't see the inherent logic in our arguments, then it is you, who are lost.

I don't need to bring up a game, that already towers so far above yours.🙄

Luke in RotJ had the lightsaber prowess of Stevie Wonder in a batting cage - something everyone here knows very well.

Most of Jabba's guards weren't among the deadliest killers in the universe - if you knew your Star Wars lore like you're fond of pretending, you would know that.

From what I understand, Boba is at least on par with his dad - and if Jango had been in that fight, he would have picked off both Luke and Solo in a very short amount of time.

If you're supposed to be one of the very deadliest bounty hunters in the galaxy, and a half-blind guy who has been frozen for the last three years takes you out of commission - you know you aren't on a good roll.

Luke in RotJ sucks. Period. If he had fought Jango, he would have never made it off the planet.

Boba getting trashed by an unarmored, partially-disabled man with a pipe, says alot, considering most Mandalorians haven't been known to lose to people like that.

Go read up some history, and then ante' up, 'Tard. angel_not

No, you'll have to deal with logic, first.

If Vader had wanted to stop Luke, he definitely could have.

Vader is leagues above Luke in skill and power. If Luke's Spaz-attack was really that great, then by your laughably pseudo-logic Luke could have attacked, say Starkiller or perhaps the Emperor that way, and won. 🙄

No, you fail even as you challenge the obvious. Leia using her power to aid Luke helps him win the fight - but it isn't an impressive win.

I'm a woman, Genius.

And I'm the one who feels like they're debating a child - you refuse to see obvious facts.

And If I need to sit here and break everything down for you - then you need to go back to learning about Star Wars. Go hit the books.

If you don't need to do that, then we're done arguing. 🙂

Yeah, and there are other Debators here who say otherwise, just as I do.

Luke needs his little sister to win a fight? Not impressive.

I understand the story.

Luke, even after having been trained under Sidious, still can't defeat him, and suddenly needs the help of his sister.

He gets the help and wins. Without it, he'd be dead. Nothing impressive here.

Go buy a box of tissues.

No, that's not impressive, Idiot.

It's not impressive. You're in denial about something very obvious and that is if you need someone elses help to take down a foe, an impressive victory that does not make.

If you want to give props to Luke because you like him, then that's your prerogative.

But understand the position of your argument has no logic to it.

Sure DE Sidious is more impressive than them - he didn't even need help in his fight against Luke. Which I suppose to you would be unimpressive.

Back in the early days of Star Wars, Luke and Leia were the magical wonder-twins of the Force - Leia joining her power to Luke's or giving him the win by magical-PIS win is just how things were written.

Nothing is impressive about it.

If victorious fights consisting of two people or more defeating a single person were considered highly impressive, then they would have tried that with the big Boxing fights of the 20th century.

But through common sense (which you don't seem to have) people know that isn't impressive.

Yeah, we've beaten a dead horse with this one.

You love Luke, and don't wish to give in to logic.

I've repeated the same obvious logic time and time again, and you keep going into denial.

Next you'll be saying that Luke losing to Ponda Baba in the Mos Eisley Cantina and then having Obi-wan jump in was impressive - that's fine.

We both have better things to do with our time, so you believe in what fulfills your happiness and maybe we'll see each other again in future debates. vampire

Let's quit the ranting Battlemaster. Im just saying Id rather go by proof than speculation. Especially when a lot of the speculation on these boards comes from a biased point of view.

But you'll be happy to know you're right about Vader vs Luke. Lucas makes it clear in the audio commentary of ROTJ, that Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader.

You see I can be enlightened sometimes 😛 I just prefer to go by solid proof, and not speculation 🙂

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Good job DP. 👆

🤨

This detail makes a BIG difference IMHO.

Apparently DE Sids can take down Luke at a Dark Side nexus, but without the aid of it...completely different story.

👆

Originally posted by Battlemaster
That really damages the concept of DE Sidious truly being the "most powerful Sith Lord in History" if he can only defeat someone at DE Luke's level, and with the help of a Dark side Nexus.

Jeez BM! DE Luke can not catch a break with you Lol. Either he had help from his padawan which apparently completely nullifies the feat.. Or if he did legitimately defeat him, then its because DE Sidious wasn't all that powerful 😠

Luke only beat him in the Lightsaber duel, when they were fighting above the pinnacle base. (Similar to how Mace Windu defeated ROTS Sidious in a lightsaber battle. Similar in the sense that I doubt anyone is going to argue the fact that ROTS Sidious was still more powerful than Mace Windu. But still to defeat him we know Mace must have also been a very powerful warrior.)

Luke still needed Leia's help to defeat DE Sidious's full power of the Force though (Force storm).

Originally posted by Zampanó
I don't think this is as incontrovertible as you are painting it. From Gideon's essay:

The Dark Side Nexus you're discussing is basically an aura of the Emperor's own machinations; it is originally his own energy!

(Frankly, I [b]like your theory, but let's make sure to look at all of the evidence.) [/B]

I agree we should look at all the evidence..

Im just saying it seems to be the most likely explanation given the facts. Let's go by the facts at hand and not just speculating on things like Leia was glowing.

In DE II Boba has the same glow the first time we see him. It just seems to be the style of the graphic novel.

On another note reading DE2 again, they only discover a book on Ossus on how to use Battle meditation in that book. They talk about how Jedi "Used" to use this technique in the old days. Suggesting it's something that's not been known or used in a long time.

So there's no way Padawan Leia could have been using Battle meditation in DE1.

Originally posted by Me

On another note reading DE2 again, they only discover a book on Ossus on how to use Battle meditation in that book. They talk about how Jedi "Used" to use this technique in the old days. Suggesting it's something that's not been known or used in a long time.

So there's no way Padawan Leia could have been using Battle meditation in DE1.

I take this part back. It was confirmed in "Empire's End" that she was using Elementary Battle Meditation against the Emporer in DE1. Hence her great interest in the subject.

Whether she was using it during Luke's lightsaber battle though, Im really not sure. It's not made clear.

All we know for sure is DE Sidious can beat Luke 1 on 1 in a Dark Side nexus but the Jedi twins together are more powerful than DE Sidious on neutral ground.

Luke needs his little sister to win a fight? Not impressive.

Luke, even after having been trained under Sidious, still can't defeat him

He gets the help and wins. Without it, he'd be dead. Nothing impressive here.

But understand the position of your argument has no logic to it.

It doesn't make sense for Luke to easily defeat Palpatine in a less powerful incarnation and then have a hard time with Lumiya in a more powerful incarnation. It was a one time feat he acheived. Either it was an extreme case of PIS or Leia helped Luke out using battle meditation. All evidents point to her using battle meditation.

If after Palpatine everyone was piece of cake for him, it wouldn't make sense either. Fight between strong foes is never one sided. Lumya was weak in the Force, yet, she was combat expert with very unusual weapon and very clever. She effectively used civilians surrounding her to keep Luke on distance and slashed him at exact momentum, when he got distracted by hatred projected by Alima. Yet, he kept fighting her singlehandedly, while having serious injury and holes in his lung.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Let's quit the ranting Battlemaster. Im just saying Id rather go by proof than speculation. Especially when a lot of the speculation on these boards comes from a biased point of view.

But you'll be happy to know you're right about Vader vs Luke. Lucas makes it clear in the audio commentary of ROTJ, that Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader.

You see I can be enlightened sometimes 😛 I just prefer to go by solid proof, and not speculation 🙂

Yeah, it's just that alot of the stuff you say that makes me doh is in argument to really basic facts.

Case and point - if it took you to back check a Lucas interview on RotJ to find out Luke was definitely a half-trained fighter/well below Vader, etc, then it shows you really need to study up more before even attempting to argue with me on anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Jeez BM! DE Luke can not catch a break with you Lol. Either he had help from his padawan which apparently completely nullifies the feat.. Or if he did legitimately defeat him, then its because DE Sidious wasn't all that powerful 😠

Luke only beat him in the Lightsaber duel, when they were fighting above the pinnacle base. (Similar to how Mace Windu defeated ROTS Sidious in a lightsaber battle. Similar in the sense that I doubt anyone is going to argue the fact that ROTS Sidious was still more powerful than Mace Windu. But still to defeat him we know Mace must have also been a very powerful warrior.)

Luke still needed Leia's help to defeat DE Sidious's full power of the Force though (Force storm).

I understand you like Luke alot, and I respect that.

Either way, if it turns out that the most powerful incarnation of Darth Sidious could only defeat Luke a handful of years after he skirted past a loving-Vader, and only apparently when in the presence of a Nexus - that looks unmistakably bad.

I mean, Darth Bane - the namesake opponant of this very thread, with all his skills, abilities and Orbalisk armor, could defeat DE Luke by himself, and without the need of a Nexus.

Yet, Bane isn't supposed to be as powerful as DE Sidious.

Isn't supposed to be.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

On another note reading DE2 again, they only discover a book on Ossus on how to use Battle meditation in that book. They talk about how Jedi "Used" to use this technique in the old days. Suggesting it's something that's not been known or used in a long time.

So there's no way Padawan Leia could have been using Battle meditation in DE1.

It could have been a MacGuffin. 😉

Originally posted by axel_jovan
OR...it proves that DE Luke was more powerful than we thought.

No. The point is that he isn't very powerful by this point.

That's why he needed Leia - and he's also fighting Palpatine, who should know and be readily capable of more than him.

Luke isn't a heavy-hitter yet, and for the most powerful incarnation of Darth Sidious to only be able to defeat him with the aid of a Nexus is kind of bad. Yeah.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No. The point is that he isn't very powerful by this point.

That's why he needed Leia - and he's also fighting Palpatine, who should know and be readily capable of more than him.

Luke isn't a heavy-hitter yet, and for the most powerful incarnation of Darth Sidious to only be able to defeat him with the aid of a Nexus is kind of bad. Yeah.

This begs the question.

Originally posted by Zampanó
This begs the question.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Case and point - if it took you to back check a Lucas interview on RotJ to find out Luke was definitely a half-trained fighter/well below Vader, etc, then it shows you really need to study up more before even attempting to argue with me on anything.

Well not really. This is only something that came into question since the prequels.

Everything about the original movie, script and novel has Luke being fully trained and legitimately defeating Vader. It's not my fault Lucas is so inconsistent. That's bound to cause confusion without Lucas clearing things up.

But anyway I believe I said Luke beat Vader down in a rage and I compared it to the way TPM Obi-Wan temporarily matched Maul in a fit of rage.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No. The point is that he isn't very powerful by this point.

That's why he needed Leia - and he's also fighting Palpatine, who should know and be readily capable of more than him.

Luke isn't a heavy-hitter yet, and for the most powerful incarnation of Darth Sidious to only be able to defeat him with the aid of a Nexus is kind of bad. Yeah.

Still not sure where your getting that DE Luke is not a heavy hitter.

This is DE Sidious, as in considerably more powerful than ROTS Sidious. So the fact is even ROTS Yoda would need help to take him down.

Also Luke force waved DE Sidious to the wall whilst on a Dark Side world (something I highly doubt anyone below ROTS Mace could do)

^Agreed.

Really, it's hard to determine the extend of DE Luke's Force powers (though he IS a top-tier IMHO), but saber-wise him fighting (and beating) DE SIdious says a lot.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well not really. This is only something that came into question since the prequels.

Everything about the original movie, script and novel has Luke being fully trained and legitimately defeating Vader. It's not my fault Lucas is so inconsistent. That's bound to cause confusion without Lucas clearing things up.

No, no it doesn't.

To the average viewer, it might seem slightly ambiguous as to just how much schooling Skywalker had.

Just watching the movies alone with keen observation let's you understand he had maybe a few days with Obi-wan and a week or so with Yoda.

I remember a while back when people were arguing about whether it was a week or a few years.

Either way, it's irrelevant. Point is, a few weeks or a few years is NOT fully-trained in Jedi terms.

Fully trained is at least spending the ten or so years with an assigned Knight or Master and then passing the Trials.

What Luke had was more or less a crash-course on how to be a Jedi. And it makes sense considering how little he knew and how clumsy he was with a saber.

Anyway, my earlier point, was that the issue of Luke's level of profiency, is one of the parts of Jedi/Sith lore that is very basic subject matter.

I could have told you instantly whether he was fully trained or not, and why, and it's easy to know.

If you have to back-check it, like it's some complex question, then that's a bad sign.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

But anyway I believe I said Luke beat Vader down in a rage and I compared it to the way TPM Obi-Wan temporarily matched Maul in a fit of rage.

Luke didn't temporarily match Vader though. It was very clear throughout the entirety of those scenes that Vader did not want to harm or kill Luke.

Luke was right. He could sense the conflict within Vader.

Vader pretty much allowed himself to be overwhelmed by Luke's clumsy temper tantrum.

Obi-wan on the other hand, displayed a cadence of gracefully and expertly-honed movements, all fueled by controlled-fury - as opposed to a spaz-attack.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Still not sure where your getting that DE Luke is not a heavy hitter.

This is DE Sidious, as in considerably more powerful than ROTS Sidious. So the fact is even ROTS Yoda would need help to take him down.

You know what Darth Power? I'm not so sure anymore.

How much more powerful was DE Sidious really, if he needed to be on a Nexus to do all those things?

DE Sidious could be like Kar Vastor - awesome if he is in a certain environment - but remove him from that environment, and his power is significantly reduced.

We know that DE Sidious has greater knowledge of Dark side, thanks to his attainment of many stores of said knowledge, but his lightsaber skills wouldn't have gotten much better than they were in RotS, and apparently, the Well of his Force power is only increased when in the presence of a Nexus.

And RotS Yoda wouldn't need help to take him down in a lightsaber duel, seeing as how DE Sidious is basically the same there as his earlier incarnation.

Luke, obviously would.

I would say that Luke in DE was probably a notch or two above RotS Anakin in Force ability and lightsaber skill.

So, is that a heavy-hitter, though?

Maybe. It's still not Yoda, though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Also Luke force waved DE Sidious to the wall whilst on a Dark Side world (something I highly doubt anyone below ROTS Mace could do)

He was Force pushed while arrogantly talking to Luke, the same way Yoda suddenly Force pushed him on Coruscant.

Obviously though, in neither situation did he use TK to defend himself (Root himself/disperse the TK) in the situation. In Luke's case he got lucky, since it was a free hit.