Darth Bane w/Orbalisks Versus Jedi Academy Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Fully trained is at least spending the ten or so years with an assigned Knight or Master and then passing the Trials.

Where did you get this from? Iv never heard of there being a specific time period. Surely Everyone learns at different rates don't they?

Lucas makes it clear the reason he's not fully trained is that he left his training with Yoda. Implying that if he stayed he would have been fully trained by now.

Also Lucas says he was Half trained. He could have said only partly trained or a third trained, but he specifically says half trained. Despite not having spent 5 years(half of what your saying) under a Jedi Master.

Also by this condition he was never fully trained.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Luke didn't temporarily match Vader though. It was very clear throughout the entirety of those scenes that Vader did not want to harm or kill Luke.

Luke was right. He could sense the conflict within Vader.

Vader pretty much allowed himself to be overwhelmed by Luke's clumsy temper tantrum.

Not according to the novel. Which states Vader was getting annoyed that his son was overpowering him. He was shocked how much Luke had improved since their encounter on Bespin (despite not having trained under a Master since).

In any case it makes no sense Vader allowed his hand to get chopped off. The Emporer was trying to turn Luke and have him kill Vader. So Vader would be very very stupid to leave himself open to a killing blow from Luke, and be easy pickings for the Emporer.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Obi-wan on the other hand, displayed a cadence of gracefully and expertly-honed movements, all fueled by controlled-fury - as opposed to a spaz-attack.

Whatever skill he displayed it might as well have been swinging a bat from Maul's perspective.

Maul had Mastered Juyo, Teras Kasi and the use of the Double bladed weapon.

Maul proved himself a superior fighter to Anoon Bondara whose skills with a Saber were second to none.

Sidious himself believed Maul's skill as a warrior to be unmatched.

In comparison Obi-Wan was merely proficient in Ataro. So unless the Force suddenly boosted his technical ability, it's obvious the boost in his power drawing from his rage obviously made That much of a difference. For him to temporarily match someone far far more skilled than him in every way.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
He was Force pushed while arrogantly talking to Luke, the same way Yoda suddenly Force pushed him on Coruscant.

Obviously though, in neither situation did he use TK to defend himself (Root himself/disperse the TK) in the situation. In Luke's case he got lucky, since it was a free hit.

Point being you wouldn't catch Kit Fisto, Plo-Koon or Obi-Wan Kenobi doing that to Sidious. Especially not on a Dark Side world.

Edit- Oh and he also took a few strikes from him, and even matched him in a Saber Lock all on a Dark Side world.

Sidious even says to him "Did you really think you could conquer me here on my throne world" Further proving the advantage Palpatine has there.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where did you get this from? Iv never heard of there being a specific time period. Surely Everyone learns at different rates don't they?

Lucas makes it clear the reason he's not fully trained is that he left his training with Yoda. Implying that if he stayed he would have been fully trained by now.

Also Lucas says he was Half trained. He could have said only partly trained or a third trained, but he specifically says half trained. Despite not having spent 5 years(half of what your saying) under a Jedi Master.

Also by this condition he was never fully trained.

Oh my God. Seriously?

Yes - there is a specific time period for tutelage under a Master.

Potential Jedi are taken at six months to be trained, they then spend their childhood as Initiates and as pre-teens are handed over to a Knight or Master to be trained until their young adulthood, when they become full-fledged Jedi.

That, or at least having the full Apprenticeship (10+years under a Knight/Master) is fully-trained in the Jedi way.

Lucas says "Half trained" implying loosely that he's nowhere near the training of an actual Knight. That's all.

Yes, duh. We know Luke wasn't fully trained. Holy crap, this is basic shit. 🙄

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Not according to the novel. Which states Vader was getting annoyed that his son was overpowering him. He was shocked how much Luke had improved since their encounter on Bespin (despite not having trained under a Master since). [/B]

Yeah - and also in the Novel, Luke blocked/absorbed some of Palpatine's lightning with his hand.

Movies trump novels in terms of canon, and we're talking Canon here.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

In any case it makes no sense Vader allowed his hand to get chopped off. The Emporer was trying to turn Luke and have him kill Vader. So Vader would be very very stupid to leave himself open to a killing blow from Luke, and be easy pickings for the Emporer. [/B]

Again, Vader was very confused emotionally at this time, hence leaving himself exposed.

Watch the damn movie. 😬

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Whatever skill he displayed it might as well have been swinging a bat from Maul's perspective.
Maul had Mastered Juyo, Teras Kasi and the use of the Double bladed weapon.
Maul proved himself a superior fighter to Anoon Bondara whose skills with a Saber were second to none.
Sidious himself believed Maul's skill as a warrior to be unmatched.
In comparison Obi-Wan was merely proficient in Ataro. So unless the Force suddenly boosted his technical ability, it's obvious the boost in his power drawing from his rage obviously made That much of a difference. For him to temporarily match someone far far more skilled than him in every way. [/B]

Yep Kenobi drew upon the Force and fueled his fury and it gave him focus, etc - that's a hell of a lot better than what RotJ Luke could have done.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Point being you wouldn't catch Kit Fisto, Plo-Koon or Obi-Wan Kenobi doing that to Sidious. Especially not on a Dark Side world. [/B]

If Sidious left himself unguarded as he did with Luke, one of those guys pushing him, wouldn't surprise me.

Sidius would kill their ass after he got up, though. 😛

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Edit- and even matched him in a Saber Lock all on a Dark Side world.

Yeah, and Obi-wan matched Dooku in a saber lock for a little while, too.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Sidious even says to him "Did you really think you could conquer me here on my throne world" Further proving the advantage Palpatine has there . [/B]

Yeesh. No wonder Darth Nihilus could whip DE Sidious's ass. It all makes sense now.

(Reference to an earlier Thread I was reading before I responded to this one)

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Oh my God. Seriously?

Yes - there is a specific time period for tutelage under a Master.

Potential Jedi are taken at six months to be trained, they then spend their childhood as Initiates and as pre-teens are handed over to a Knight or Master to be trained until their young adulthood, when they become full-fledged Jedi.

That, or at least having the full Apprenticeship (10+years under a Knight/Master) is fully-trained in the Jedi way.

Lucas says "Half trained" implying loosely that he's nowhere near the training of an actual Knight. That's all.

Yes, duh. We know Luke wasn't fully trained. Holy crap, this is basic shit. 🙄

I know that's the normal method showed to us by the prequels.

What I asked you is if you have a source that says you Have to train for 10 years to become a Knight. In other words could someone very talented not complete his training in 5 years for example. Or are you claiming everyone learns at exactly the same rate?

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Yep Kenobi drew upon the Force and fueled his fury and it gave him focus, etc - that's a hell of a lot better than what RotJ Luke could have done.

So you admit if one's in an extreme rage they can compete against someone far far far more skilled than themselves??

That's my point. I don't see why your arguing it tbh.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If Sidious left himself unguarded as he did with Luke, one of those guys pushing him, wouldn't surprise me.

Sidius would kill their ass after he got up, though. 😛

Nah I don't believe that. Sidious has naturally powerful force defenses. Anakin tries attacking Dooku with the Force in the CW movie. He gets Dooku by surprise but all it does is stagger Dooku.

Dooku does not fall.

And those guys would all go down to Sidious in one stroke. (Obi-Wan with one wave of the hand).

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah, and Obi-wan matched Dooku in a saber lock for a little while, too.

Nah Not Comparable AT ALL. Dooku was toying with Obi-Wan. Dooku was smiling during that lock, whilst Obi-Wan was clearly struggling for his life.

On the contrary with DE Luke against DE Sids they were both locked equally both struggling.

Originally posted by Battlemaster

Yeah - and also in the Novel, Luke blocked/absorbed some of Palpatine's lightning with his hand.

Movies trump novels in terms of canon, and we're talking Canon here.

Again, Vader was very confused emotionally at this time, hence leaving himself exposed.

Watch the damn movie. 😬

First of all I have the novel. And Luke ATTEMPTS to block some of Sidious's Lightning but fails miserably.

The novels based on the movies are all considered G-Canon except where they clearly contradict the movie. The novels are more canon than any other eu material believe it or not.

And talking of watching the movie? Lol! Besides the fact that I was watching that movie long long before the prequels, your still missing the basic truth.

What the original movie, novel and script all show is the same thing. That Luke was fully trained and legitimately beating Vader.

This "basic knowledge" (as you put it) of Luke not being fully trained has only come about in the last few years. Lucas retconned that after the prequels.

Yes that's canon now, but don't expect me to see that from the movie Lol.

Have you seen the movie? Did you miss Yoda saying to Luke "No more training do you require.." Or Vader telling Luke "Your skills are now complete" contrary to what he told him in ESB "The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you're not A Jedi YET.."

And then theres the novel which makes it clear Luke was legitimately defeating Vader. Even in the redrafted version of the novel which came out in 1999 (same year as TPM).

Do you see where Im coming from now? Yes It's canon now that Luke wasn't fully trained. But honestly Lucas did HAVE TO confirm that, because everything about the Original version of the movie, novel and script says the opposite.

Which is why I always took the middle ground and said Vader held back with his Force TK, but Luke in a fit of rage was able to compete and best him in the Lightsaber duel. Much like the way TPM Obi-Wan competed with Maul in a fit of rage.

Edit- And do you even know how much difference there was between TPM Obi-Wan and Maul in skill and training??

Miles and miles and miles of difference. Seriously, theres not even a comparison in skill or training there.

So if padawan Obi-Wan can compete with Maul in a rage, I don't see what's so difficult to believe that ROTJ Luke could compete with Vader whilst giving into his anger (and only purely in a Saber duel..).

Especially considering the Force was much stronger in Luke than with broken Vader. Whilst the idea of the Force being stronger in Obi-Wan than with Maul seems more unlikely now than ever (as per the continuing revelations about Maul's history from the CW series).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I know that's the normal method showed to us by the prequels.
In other words could someone very talented not complete his training in 5 years for example. Or are you claiming everyone learns at exactly the same rate?

I know that in terms of Masterhood, at times, Jedi can skip testing for that, and proclaim themselves a Master - though that is highly frowned upon by the Council.

Traditionally speaking - all Jedi are trained from at least their pre-teens into their young adulthood. That is the way in which Jedi progress through their training, and being able to learn faster or slower has nothing to do with overall length required.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

What I asked you is if you have a source that says you Have to train for 10 years to become a Knight.

If you have to ask me for a source, then that means you aren't already experienced enough with the material at hand.

This is basic stuff. doh

If you need more info on this, then you are a Newbie, if you are a Newbie, then I don't need to waste time debating with you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

So you admit if one's in an extreme rage they can compete against someone far far far more skilled than themselves??

That's my point. I don't see why your arguing it tbh.

Obi-Wan = Actual classically-trained, highly skilled Jedi Knight (Level)

Luke = Had a crash course and is clumsy and comparatively inexperienced; also has temper tantrums.

Apples; oranges.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nah I don't believe that. Sidious has naturally powerful force defenses. Anakin tries attacking Dooku with the Force in the CW movie. He gets Dooku by surprise but all it does is stagger Dooku.

Dooku does not fall.

And those guys would all go down to Sidious in one stroke. (Obi-Wan with one wave of the hand).

I would think Obi-wan would last longer than the rest of those guys. 😉

Also, both Yoda and Sidious let their guard (I.E. no shielding) down on Coruscant during the opening moments of their speeches. So it's possible for an unguarded opponent to be knocked down. Regardless of how powerful he is.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Nah Not Comparable AT ALL. Dooku was toying with Obi-Wan. Dooku was smiling during that lock, whilst Obi-Wan was clearly struggling for his life. On the contrary with DE Luke against DE Sids they were both locked equally both struggling.

And Sidious had just jumped into the body of a Clone that had spent it's entire incubation floating in a cylinder of gel, and had never exerted it's muscles before.

Think of Neo, when he had been taken out of his goo-filled Pod and out of the Matrix for the first time, and the others commented on how he would have trouble walking and standing, much less lifting things, because he had never used his muscles before.

After their momentarily saber-lock, Sidious then promptly disarmed Luke and had him at his mercy.

Also, I noticed the second time around, after Palpatine had been in his newer Clone body for quite some time, it was Palpatine who was over-powering Luke in the saber-lock.

(And yeah, I looked through the comic again, and damn, Leia is glowing! Like, Force Harmony glowing or Battle Meditation glowing. ✅ )

If you have to ask me for a source, then that means you aren't already experienced enough with the material at hand.

This is basic stuff. doh

If you need more info on this, then you are a Newbie, if you are a Newbie, then I don't need to waste time debating with you.

In any argument, it is exceptionally easy to make claims. (There's one right there!) Once one has made an assertion, it becomes important to substantiate said claim. It is not the responsibility of one's opponents to do the legwork to prove said claims; the onus to provide evidence is on the person taking a stand. From this thread:

OPB: Battlemaster:
Fully trained is at least spending the ten or so years with an assigned Knight or Master and then passing the Trials.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all I have the novel. And Luke ATTEMPTS to block some of Sidious's Lightning but fails miserably.The novels based on the movies are all considered G-Canon except where they clearly contradict the movie. The novels are more canon than any other eu material believe it or not.And talking of watching the movie? Lol! Besides the fact that I was watching that movie long long before the prequels, your still missing the basic truth.What the original movie, novel and script all show is the same thing. That Luke was fully trained and legitimately beating Vader.This "basic knowledge" (as you put it) of Luke not being fully trained has only come about in the last few years. Lucas retconned that after the prequels.Yes that's canon now, but don't expect me to see that from the movie LolHave you seen the movie? Did you miss Yoda saying to Luke "No more training do you require.." Or Vader telling Luke "Your skills are now complete" contrary to what he told him in ESB "The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you're not A Jedi YEAnd then theres the novel which makes it clear Luke was legitimately defeating Vader. Even in the redrafted version of the novel which came out in 1999 (same year as TPM).Do you see where Im coming from now? Yes It's canon now that Luke wasn't fully trained. But honestly Lucas did HAVE TO confirm that, because everything about the Original version of the movie, novel and script says the oppositeWhich is why I always took the middle ground and said Vader held back with his Force TK, but Luke in a fit of rage was able to compete and best him in the Lightsaber duel. Much like the way TPM Obi-Wan competed with Maul in a fit of rage[b] Edit- And do you even know how much difference there was between TPM Obi-Wan and Maul in skill and training?Miles and miles and miles of difference. Seriously, theres not even a comparison in skill or training there.So if padawan Obi-Wan can compete with Maul in a rage, I don't see what's so difficult to believe that ROTJ Luke could compete with Vader whilst giving into his anger (and only purely in a Saber duel..)Especially considering the Force was much stronger in Luke than with broken Vader. Whilst the idea of the Force being stronger in Obi-Wan than with Maul seems more unlikely now than ever (as per the continuing revelations about Maul's history from the CW series). [/B]

No. You're clearly, an Idiot.

It was clear from the get-go he wasn't fully-trained. He had a week of training with one guy and maybe a few weeks to one year of training with another. That's all.

Even the most incompetent moron could understand that doesn't amount to full training in such a complex field.

Either you're slow, or you really are a Newbie, and you're just trying to pull my leg.

In simple terms Movie Canon makes it clear that Vader was emotionally-conflicted and couldn't bring himself to truly harm or kill his son.

If you're bright enough, you can intellectually connect the dots regarding Vader's experiences dealing with the likes of Starkiller, and how he gave the man hell.

Luke, using his pitiful temper tantrum still wouldn't last two seconds in a lightsaber duel against the man Vader nearly demolished.

Vader was holding back, considerably. If you're too mentally dim to see this, or you don't want to accept it. Let me know, because I have better things to do with my time, than waste it arguing with a stubborn Newbie.

And Obi-wan and his fury against Maul, and Luke and his temper-tantrum with his loving Father, are apples and oranges.

And the CW series doesn't contain "Revelations" - it's a children's show.
🙄

(Sorry for that , Nephthys, I know you like that show)

Originally posted by Zampanó
That's not how this works.

In any argument, it is exceptionally easy to make claims. (There's one right there!) Once one has made an assertion, it becomes important to substantiate said claim. It is not the responsibility of one's opponents to do the legwork to prove said claims; the onus to provide evidence is on the person taking a stand. From this thread:

For such a claim (one that is easily verifiable with a specific excerpt from a specific source) it is not unreasonable to ask for a source. And if, as you claim, this is "basic stuff" then it will certainly be a trivial matter for you to provide evidence.

I know, but if you give a mouse a cookie, it's going to ask for a glass of milk.

I'm not in the business of teaching Newbies anymore. It's tiring.

If he doesn't know enough about the Jedi Order, he needs to go buy the books or at least check the Wiki (and it's accompanying source) and study up.

I like to debate knowledgeable fans, not rookies.

I like the old series made by the same guys who did Samurai Jack. I've only ever seen the Mortis trilogy from the CGI series.

And no need to apologise, I watch childrens shows all the time. Most of my favourite shows are childrens shows.

Edit: DARTH POWER has been a member of this forum for 4 years, he's not a newbie.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I know, but if you give a mouse a cookie, it's going to ask for a glass of milk.

I'm not in the business of teaching Newbies anymore. It's tiring.

If he doesn't know enough about the Jedi Order, he needs to go buy the books or at least check the Wiki (and it's accompanying source) and study up.

I like to debate knowledgeable fans, not rookies.

What is the source? You'll notice that when the most recognized poster on this forum put together his comprehensive argument regarding Sidious, every single accomplishment was cited!

We are more likely to take your side if you can prove what you're saying is accurate.

Where is the 10 year minimum explicitly stated?

[edit: fyi, posturing is not likely to win this dispute for you; we've been beholden to textual evidence for far too long for sophistry to get around this particular roadblock. Either provide the quote or it'll be seen as a concession.]

[edit 2: I second Neph's admission of ignorance/suspicion of the claim]

I've never heard of this rule either btw. A source would be nice.

Edit

Originally posted by Nephthys

Edit: DARTH POWER has been a member of this forum for 4 years, he's not a newbie.

He's doing a fantastic job of fooling me. 🙄

Originally posted by Battlemaster
No. You're clearly, an Idiot.

It was clear from the get-go he wasn't fully-trained. He had a week of training with one guy and maybe a few weeks to one year of training with another. That's all.

Even the most incompetent moron could understand that doesn't amount to full training in such a complex field.

Either you're slow, or you really are a Newbie, and you're just trying to pull my leg.

In simple terms Movie Canon makes it clear that Vader was emotionally-conflicted and couldn't bring himself to truly harm or kill his son.

If you're bright enough, you can intellectually connect the dots regarding Vader's experiences dealing with the likes of Starkiller, and how he gave the man hell.

Luke, using his pitiful temper tantrum still wouldn't last two seconds in a lightsaber duel against the man Vader nearly demolished.

Vader was holding back, considerably. If you're too mentally dim to see this, or you don't want to accept it. Let me know, because I have better things to do with my time, than waste it arguing with a stubborn Newbie.

And Obi-wan and his fury against Maul, and Luke and his temper-tantrum with his loving Father, are apples and oranges.

And the CW series doesn't contain "Revelations" - it's a children's show.
🙄

(Sorry for that , Nephthys, I know you like that show)

Originally posted by Zampanó
OK, we are all in awe of your mastery of the minutia of the saga. Great. Cool.

What is the source? You'll notice that when the most recognized poster on this forum put together his comprehensive argument regarding Sidious, [b]every single accomplishment was cited!

We are more likely to take your side if you can prove what you're saying is accurate.

Where is the 10 year minimum explicitly stated?

[edit: fyi, posturing is not likely to win this dispute for you; we've been beholden to textual evidence for far too long for sophistry to get around this particular roadblock. Either provide the quote or it'll be seen as a concession.]

[edit 2: I second Neph's admission of ignorance/suspicion of the claim] [/B]

Alright, so I understand - are you asking me to produce a source that confirms Anakin's skipping of the Initiate-stage and going from conventional Padawan to Knight?

It wouldn't be ten solid years, but typically something around that. That's what I was implying.

I am admittedly shocked that some of the others around here don't know that.

We know proper training consists of 6 months to the age of 13 according to Canon. Typically around that time a Jedi-in-training goes to one of the Corps or is handed over to a Master or Knight for training until early adulthood.

The rough estimate would be ten years, give or take. (For the accepted minimum)

Anakin's circumstance was considered rare in the Order, and though he didn't partake in Initiate training, he still was conventionally and officially required to train from Padawan to Knight.

Anakin was around 10 when he began his Padawan training and then trained until not long after the Battle of Praesitlyn, where he was Knighted at the age of 22.

Essentially, if we aren't talking about the Pre-Ruusan Reformation, then we're going by conventional proper training, which is 6 months-13 years and from there 13 to 22-25.

Obviously, it's not a few weeks or a year.

Honestly, none of this is even remotely complicated.

I didn't speak of it to sound knowledgeable.

It would be like me stating the age of human childhood to teenage years and from there to adult years, to someone else who spoke as if they didn't know.

This is very basic stuff.

In fact, I would think that everyone that has read all the Clone Wars novels, PT novels and OT novels alike, would have a good working knowledge of this.

The tiring part in debates is when people ask you proof for retardedly basic questions, and you're like,

Originally posted by Arhael

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Alright, so I understand - are you asking me to produce a source that confirms Anakin's skipping of the Initiate-stage and going from conventional Padawan to Knight?

It wouldn't be ten solid years, but typically something around that. That's what I was implying.

I am admittedly shocked that some of the others around here don't know that.

We know proper training consists of 6 months to the age of 13 according to Canon. Typically around that time a Jedi-in-training goes to one of the Corps or is handed over to a Master or Knight for training until early adulthood.

The rough estimate would be ten years, give or take. (For the accepted minimum)

Anakin's circumstance was considered rare in the Order, and though he didn't partake in Initiate training, he still was conventionally and officially required to train from Padawan to Knight.

Anakin was around 10 when he began his Padawan training and then trained until not long after the Battle of Praesitlyn, where he was Knighted at the age of 22.

Essentially, if we aren't talking about the Pre-Ruusan Reformation, then we're going by conventional proper training, which is 6 months-13 years and from there 13 to 22-25.

Obviously, it's not a few weeks or a year.

Honestly, none of this is even remotely complicated.

I didn't speak of it to sound knowledgeable.

It would be like me stating the age of human childhood to teenage years and from there to adult years, to someone else who spoke as if they didn't know.

This is very basic stuff.

In fact, I would think that everyone that has read all the Clone Wars novels, PT novels and OT novels alike, would have a good working knowledge of this.

The tiring part in debates is when people ask you proof for retardedly basic questions, and you're like,

There is no such event as the Battle of Praesitlyn

Source?

Originally posted by Rookwood
There is no such event as the Battle of Praesitlyn

Source?

...Wow.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
It wouldn't be ten solid years, but typically something around that. That's what I was implying.

I am admittedly shocked that some of the others around here don't know that.

We know proper training consists of 6 months to the age of 13 according to Canon. Typically around that time a Jedi-in-training goes to one of the Corps or is handed over to a Master or Knight for training until early adulthood.

The rough estimate would be ten years, give or take. (For the accepted minimum)

If I'm understanding you correctly you've estimated the amount of years training thats required to become a Knight and then berated a fellow member for not reading your mind and knowing about your estimation.

Wow indeed.