Originally posted by Battlemaster
Before and after the Post-Ruusan Reformation, which are not the periods I'm talking about.
You are talking about Luke correct?
Then he should be exempt from it as well as Obi-Wan claims he is the "first of the new" Jedi.
If you read carefully enough, it becomes clear. I was involved in making some Star Wars RPG's a few years back on The Force.Net and had to understand exactly how many years were required for Initiate and Padawan training, so I studied the then known Human examples during the Post-Ruusan Reformation and before the New Order.The figure deduced for either learning period was roughly ten years.
It's all easily understood, once you've researched it. Give it a try.
Sure. The majority of the Jedi trained during this time period seem to be trained for ten or more years, however that does not make it a requirement.
I don't have any reason to be cross with you now - apparently the others are in the dark, too. 😬You can't blame others for not knowing, I guess.
If you read carefully enough, it becomes clear. I was involved in making some Star Wars RPG's a few years back on The Force.Net and had to understand exactly how many years were required for Initiate and Padawan training, so I studied the then known Human examples during the Post-Ruusan Reformation and before the New Order. The figure deduced for either learning period was roughly ten years. It's all easily understood, once you've researched it. Give it a try.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Take it up with George Lucas. He's the one who wrote the material.
We just noticed what was written there.If you don't like it, and prefer to bury the truth, blow the cave up.
Well you know the audio commentary I checked where Lucas says Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader..
Well in the same commentary he gives the reason why he's only half trained. And the reason is because he left his training with Yoda prematurely, so it's actually his own fault.
There was no mention of requiring 10 years training. In fact Yoda was going to die the next year anyway, so it could have only been 1 year training under him max.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Actually Zampanó, I'd be agreeing with you, but the problem with the idea that training times can be hypothetically random and mixed around, is that the Jedi Order had a specific way of doing things, much like any official institution or school.
BM I think your mixing up Standard Procedure with Skill Progression of different individuals.
There may have been a 10 year standard procedure during the time of the PT, but that doesn't mean every student will learn at the same rate.
Look at Bane. Didn't he defeat Kas'im in just a few years of training??
And look at Kas'im.. The time it took him to Master every form, others may not have even mastered the one form.
You see now to me the different rates at which different Jedi can learn is just basic stuff. Because there's evidence of that all over the SWU.
Look at Savage Opress Lol. He's overpowering Obi-Wan with just a few months of training! I know there was magic involved, but the principle is there throughout the SWU.
You yourself admitted Luke was doing a Crash Course in the Jedi Arts. So clearly there was no requirement for him to follow the standard procedure of the PT era. He just had to learn as fast as he could.
Originally posted by BattlemasterThe figure deduced for either learning period was roughly ten years.
It's all easily understood, once you've researched it. Give it a try.
The funny part is, all these tidbits of knowledge are easily researchable.
BM surely if it's that easy to research you could give us one quote from a canon source which says that's a requirement to complete the skill set required of a Jedi Knight, and not just standard procedure at the time of the PT.
And btw, Maul had Mastered multiple forms and had become a warrior of unmatched skill (according to Sidious) in pretty much the same time it took Obi-Wan to complete his training and merely be proficient in the one form.
So again clearly PT Jedi Standard procedure is different to the rate at which individuals can learn.
The evidence for this is everywhere.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This made me chuckle. 👆
Originally posted by ares834
You are talking about Luke correct?Then he should be exempt from it as well as Obi-Wan claims he is the "first of the new" Jedi.
When the Jedi went through their Reformation, they did away with alot of ineffective practices and got rid of bad habits as an organization.
Like an official college or institution, they established an official curriculum and a reasonable time-table to learn it.
This obviously helped in many ways, such as keeping the likelihood of a Sith resurgence (Or any major Dark side resurgence) down.
Luke was the last of the old, and first of the new, but he was nowhere near fully trained as a Jedi Knight would properly be. That's the point.
Originally posted by ares834
Sure. The majority of the Jedi trained during this time period seem to be trained for ten or more years
Correct. And roughly ten years (From Padawan to Knight) tended to be the minimum.
I also noticed that Anakin Skywalker, even after becoming Kenobi's Apprentice, had still trained with the Temple's Battlemaster, Cin Drallig - possibly to add to his skills.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well you know the audio commentary I checked where Lucas says Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader..Well in the same commentary he gives the reason why he's only half trained. And the reason is because he left his training with Yoda prematurely, so it's actually his own fault.
There was no mention of requiring 10 years training. In fact Yoda was going to die the next year anyway, so it could have only been 1 year training under him max.
Yeah, actually - if you watch Empire Strikes Back - that's implied, anyway.
Luke gets a crash-course on Force/Lightsaber basics, and then heads off to Cloud City after the vision.
And in the OT, there was also no mention of "the Sith", but we also know they did exist there.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There may have been a 10 year standard procedure during the time of the PT
Correct.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
, but that doesn't mean every student will learn at the same rate.
Also correct. However, in the official Curriculum, there doesn't seem to be shortcuts.
Anakin was very talented early on, so much so that other Jedi Masters would mention it. And of course as a Padawan he even went toe to toe with the greatest swordsman of the time besides Yoda, and did a good job.
But despite Anakin's talent, and the fact that he was supposed to be a more recent addition to the Order - they did not give him a shortcut through his training time-table, not due to his recent inclusion, nor his talent.
His full Padawan to Knight Apprenticeship was still required.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Look at Bane. Didn't he defeat Kas'im in just a few years of training??And look at Kas'im.. The time it took him to Master every form, others may not have even mastered the one form.
You see now to me the different rates at which different Jedi can learn is just basic stuff. Because there's evidence of that all over the SWU.
Look at Savage Opress Lol. He's overpowering Obi-Wan with just a few months of training! I know there was magic involved, but the principle is there throughout the SWU.
Yup. And they're Sith.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You yourself admitted Luke was doing a Crash Course in the Jedi Arts. So clearly there was no requirement for him to follow the standard procedure of the PT era. He just had to learn as fast as he could.
Sure. But Luke wasn't very talented; nor was he fully trained.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
BM surely if it's that easy to research you could give us one quote from a canon source which says that's a requirement to complete the skill set required of a Jedi Knight, and not just standard procedure at the time of the PT.
Standard Procedure = Requirement
By the way, how many Star Wars books did you say you had read?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And btw, Maul had Mastered multiple forms and had become a warrior of unmatched skill (according to Sidious) in pretty much the same time it took Obi-Wan to complete his training and merely be proficient in the one form.
Yup. Maul's a Sith.
^ Point being if a Sith with far less force potential can do it there's no reason why the Jedi with the most force potential (after Anakin) can't do it in a crash course.
Standard procedure was not a requirement for Luke in his special circumstances. If it was then Luke was Never a fully trained Kinght. Not even in the NJO series. Because he never trained under a master for 10 years.
And Lol @ Luke not being a talented student.
Btw Theres a visionary comic, a "what-if" where Luke stays with Yoda to complete his training, and Yoda says to him "Never have I known a student to complete their training so quickly."
Yes I've already agreed Luke was only half trained in ROTJ, but Lucas has made it kind of clear if he stayed with Yoda from ESB to ROTJ then he likely would have been fully trained. The audio commentary of the OT Dvd's came out during filming of ROTS.
Ive had the ROTJ novel since many years before the PT. And even the 1999 re-release suggests nothing about Luke being part trained. According to Yoda and Vader's dialogue in the movie, and according to the novel and script it's clear Luke was fully trained.
But that's something that's been retconned by Lucas since the prequels.
Erm, potential with a lightsaber? Sure, some people to have a penchant for swordplay, but the style they chose also matters.
Maul wasn't to powerful with the Force, so he went into the physical aspect of the Sith. As such, he was a beast when it came to sabers (In Bane's terms, Maul is a marauder)
Obi-Wan is NOT the best with a saber, and can not be considered such by a long shot. He just so happens to have mastered the most defensive form to its utmost extent (If that would be a correct wording, utmost extent may be false) and therefore could fight many people of the era simply because they couldn't hit him. But if he went offensive he is not nearly as proficient with that as, say, Anakin.
I think Anakin had fully mastered Djem So. As Dooku says he's as fine a user of Djem So as Dooku had ever seen.
Also as early as RODV Vader was trained in all forms of combat presumably including Juyo for which you have to be a High Level Master of multiple other forms.
So chances are Anakin by ROTS had completely mastered his chosen form and was more than proficient(possibly mastery level) in multiple other forms as well.
So No, Obi-Wan was not more talented than him in Saber abilities.
Originally posted by Pwned
Maul wasn't to powerful with the Force, so he went into the physical aspect of the Sith. As such, he was a beast when it came to sabers (In Bane's terms, Maul is a marauder)
To be fair we don't really know the extent of his Force TK. He may have just chose to physically dominate his opponents. Of course nobody can assume he was especially good with the Force until we have feats. CW series may provide some next season.
But from what we know now of Dathomir and Maul's bloodline, the Force was definetely strong with him. His biggest strength however were his Saber and Combat skills. Sort of like a Kas'im type.
Maul was probably more talented than Kas'im seeingas he was not even 20 years of age when he mastered all forms of the lightsaber, plus double bladed lghtsaber and teras Kasi.
Obi-Wan started learning Soresu at the beginning of the Clone Wars and mastered it 2 years into it, so he was the most talented Jedi when it comes to the lightsabre.
Originally posted by Padawan Obi-Wan
Maul was probably more talented than Kas'im seeingas he was not even 20 years of age when he mastered all forms of the lightsaber, plus double bladed lghtsaber and teras Kasi.Obi-Wan started learning Soresu at the beginning of the Clone Wars and mastered it 2 years into it, so he was the most talented Jedi when it comes to the lightsabre.
Kas'im also mastered the Double bladed weapon and Jar Kai. As well as completely mastering every single form to it's apex. Age is irrelevant. Darth Maul was said to be a Warrior in his prime, never to be any better (TPM novel).
Obi-Wan began learning Soresu after TPM. It took him 12+ years to completely master one form. His chosen form. And it was the only form he ever mastered in his whole career as a Jedi.
Still impressive enough to defeat Crazy Anakin, but not even close to being the "most talented jedi with a lightsaber."
30s I mean sorry. Maul was just 18 eyars of age. he mastered all forms and could useJarkai and Double Bladed lightsaber, plus teras kasi. He could have just devoted 12 eyars to his force training, and learn really good force defence, plus Yoda does not use force offensively. If Maul sparred with someone of Yoda's size and shape for 12 years he would be able to beat him, no doubt there.
Why? Maull is way better a swordsman than Yoda is Yoda just a lot smaller and quicker and mroe acrobatic. With time Maul would become more powerful in the Force. Fight is a lot closer than you think. Maull in his 30s would be twice the fighter he was when he killed Qui-Gon, probably the second most powerful Jedi pf the Order. Just think about that for a seocnd, please. yeah, thata is that i thought...