this is how I see it. if this doesn't help, then Ima just sit back and see where this thread goes because I can't tolerate this DC judeo god "wankage."
The zero factor here is the creators. The writers, artists, TOAA, however you see it.
Now, comes nothing. The blank slate. Chaos King if he won the Chaos War. What everything is created from. The void before creation.
Next, comes plot devices. Not only is this the ultimate energy where everything below this tier draws its energy from, it's also the basis behind how everything in existence functions regardless of mortality. This is...the Source for DC. This source, like all...power in existence, has positive and negative. So out of all the people in "Heaven", this is where Christ and the Anti-Christ are in terms of power, influence, and capability. However, other characters (I suspect Cyttorak) could fall into this category as well. Plot devices don't really fight, or have many showings. Everyone else from the lower tiers use their powers.
After your plot devices, you have your "nigh-omnipotent" beings. And there are 2 classifications of nigh-omnipotent (IMO)
-Absolute: LT moreso (imo) than The Spectre in this scenario. The "perfect" creations. They embody abstract concepts, and can exist independent of megaverses. Every company or continuity typically only has 1, because they....can't be beat. That's why LT says something along the lines of "power beyond mine is meaningless" I think.
-Anomalies: Pre-Retcon Beyonder. All powerful, but not independent of abstract concepts. He got retconned, so I take that (story-wise) as LT's necessity and nigh-omnipotence changing the continuity which is interchangeable with a retcon.
So...with that out of the way, notice how the cosmic hierarchy isn't even mentioned? Yet...I'm wanking Marvel. I could go on and on about how much further down on the list they are, but I'm staying on topic. Just know that for the most part they're not a factor and likely lose. What I'm saying, is that Presence does not exist within nor did it create the LT, so it has no power over it. Yet, the nature of LT's power could give it control over the Presence.
See above how i listed nigh-omnipotent beings are below plot devices? Now, get this. Everytime someone threatens a "plot device," the heroes have to save the day or....most likely the LT will intervene (there have been stories written about it obviously). And even here...Plot Devices are not truly absolute. They can be changed, manipulated, and reformed. That's what LT does, and will do for this battle.
Those same plot devices, should they malfunction, LT can also intervene. There is a NECESSITY for these functions to be in order. I'll go as far to say even writers utilize necessity when putting things into place. When they are not in order, his vengeance (response) is to correct the problem with his power which is equal (equity) if not beyond (there aren't any other absolute characters) anyone elses.
Also, those same plot devices can also be commanded or manipulated. How? By people using their powers at will. Your average character can only manipulate plot devices up to a certain point (like Supes flying and using HV to beat opponents), LT (as the embodiment of necessity, equity, and vengeance) could judge that any given plot device to do whatever he wants, and it is so. Spectre can't do what LT can here, because the source is in him. That source isn't in LT, they're opposing, so his powers of judgement...to me...work on the presence.
LT doesn't work for The Presence, LT works for TOAA. Presence was created by a "TOAA" of a different continuity. Yeah HOTI messed up LT, and yeah Protege "nearly usurped" his power, but Presence got his feminine aspect toyed with (lol) which only says that they both can be lowballed, or victims of a story, as with any other character.
Originally posted by Jynocidus
this is how I see it. if this doesn't help, then Ima just sit back and see where this thread goes because I can't tolerate this DC judeo god "wankage."The zero factor here is the creators. The writers, artists, TOAA, however you see it.
Now, comes nothing. The blank slate. Chaos King if he won the Chaos War. What everything is created from. The void before creation.
Next, comes plot devices. Not only is this the ultimate energy where everything below this tier draws its energy from, it's also the basis behind how everything in existence functions regardless of mortality. This is...the Source for DC. This source, like all...power in existence, has positive and negative. So out of all the people in "Heaven", this is where Christ and the Anti-Christ are in terms of power, influence, and capability. However, other characters (I suspect Cyttorak) could fall into this category as well. Plot devices don't really fight, or have many showings. Everyone else from the lower tiers use their powers.
After your plot devices, you have your "nigh-omnipotent" beings. And there are 2 classifications of nigh-omnipotent (IMO)
-Absolute: LT moreso (imo) than The Spectre in this scenario. The "perfect" creations. They embody abstract concepts, and can exist independent of megaverses. Every company or continuity typically only has 1, because they....can't be beat. That's why LT says something along the lines of "power beyond mine is meaningless" I think.
-Anomalies: Pre-Retcon Beyonder. All powerful, but not independent of abstract concepts. He got retconned, so I take that (story-wise) as LT's necessity and nigh-omnipotence changing the continuity which is interchangeable with a retcon.
So...with that out of the way, notice how the cosmic hierarchy isn't even mentioned? Yet...I'm wanking Marvel. I could go on and on about how much further down on the list they are, but I'm staying on topic. Just know that for the most part they're not a factor and likely lose. What I'm saying, is that Presence does not exist within nor did it create the LT, so it has no power over it. Yet, the nature of LT's power could give it control over the Presence.
See above how i listed nigh-omnipotent beings are below plot devices? Now, get this. Everytime someone threatens a "plot device," the heroes have to save the day or....most likely the LT will intervene (there have been stories written about it obviously). And even here...Plot Devices are not truly absolute. They can be changed, manipulated, and reformed. That's what LT does, and will do for this battle.
Those same plot devices, should they malfunction, LT can also intervene. There is a NECESSITY for these functions to be in order. I'll go as far to say even writers utilize necessity when putting things into place. When they are not in order, his vengeance (response) is to correct the problem with his power which is equal (equity) if not beyond (there aren't any other absolute characters) anyone elses.
Also, those same plot devices can also be commanded or manipulated. How? By people using their powers at will. Your average character can only manipulate plot devices up to a certain point (like Supes flying and using HV to beat opponents), LT (as the embodiment of necessity, equity, and vengeance) could judge that any given plot device to do whatever he wants, and it is so. Spectre can't do what LT can here, because the source is in him. That source isn't in LT, they're opposing, so his powers of judgement...to me...work on the presence.
LT doesn't work for The Presence, LT works for TOAA. Presence was created by a "TOAA" of a different continuity. Yeah HOTI messed up LT, and yeah Protege "nearly usurped" his power, but Presence got his feminine aspect toyed with (lol) which only says that they both can be lowballed, or victims of a story, as with any other character.
Originally posted by Jynocidus
this is how I see it. if this doesn't help, then Ima just sit back and see where this thread goes because I can't tolerate this DC judeo god "wankage."The zero factor here is the creators. The writers, artists, TOAA, however you see it.
Now, comes nothing. The blank slate. Chaos King if he won the Chaos War. What everything is created from. The void before creation.
Next, comes plot devices. Not only is this the ultimate energy where everything below this tier draws its energy from, it's also the basis behind how everything in existence functions regardless of mortality. This is...the Source for DC. This source, like all...power in existence, has positive and negative. So out of all the people in "Heaven", this is where Christ and the Anti-Christ are in terms of power, influence, and capability. However, other characters (I suspect Cyttorak) could fall into this category as well. Plot devices don't really fight, or have many showings. Everyone else from the lower tiers use their powers.
After your plot devices, you have your "nigh-omnipotent" beings. And there are 2 classifications of nigh-omnipotent (IMO)
-Absolute: LT moreso (imo) than The Spectre in this scenario. The "perfect" creations. They embody abstract concepts, and can exist independent of megaverses. Every company or continuity typically only has 1, because they....can't be beat. That's why LT says something along the lines of "power beyond mine is meaningless" I think.
-Anomalies: Pre-Retcon Beyonder. All powerful, but not independent of abstract concepts. He got retconned, so I take that (story-wise) as LT's necessity and nigh-omnipotence changing the continuity which is interchangeable with a retcon.
So...with that out of the way, notice how the cosmic hierarchy isn't even mentioned? Yet...I'm wanking Marvel. I could go on and on about how much further down on the list they are, but I'm staying on topic. Just know that for the most part they're not a factor and likely lose. What I'm saying, is that Presence does not exist within nor did it create the LT, so it has no power over it. Yet, the nature of LT's power could give it control over the Presence.
See above how i listed nigh-omnipotent beings are below plot devices? Now, get this. Everytime someone threatens a "plot device," the heroes have to save the day or....most likely the LT will intervene (there have been stories written about it obviously). And even here...Plot Devices are not truly absolute. They can be changed, manipulated, and reformed. That's what LT does, and will do for this battle.
Those same plot devices, should they malfunction, LT can also intervene. There is a NECESSITY for these functions to be in order. I'll go as far to say even writers utilize necessity when putting things into place. When they are not in order, his vengeance (response) is to correct the problem with his power which is equal (equity) if not beyond (there aren't any other absolute characters) anyone elses.
Also, those same plot devices can also be commanded or manipulated. How? By people using their powers at will. Your average character can only manipulate plot devices up to a certain point (like Supes flying and using HV to beat opponents), LT (as the embodiment of necessity, equity, and vengeance) could judge that any given plot device to do whatever he wants, and it is so. Spectre can't do what LT can here, because the source is in him. That source isn't in LT, they're opposing, so his powers of judgement...to me...work on the presence.
LT doesn't work for The Presence, LT works for TOAA. Presence was created by a "TOAA" of a different continuity. Yeah HOTI messed up LT, and yeah Protege "nearly usurped" his power, but Presence got his feminine aspect toyed with (lol) which only says that they both can be lowballed, or victims of a story, as with any other character.
So, do you see Cytorrak as a plot device and potentially above LT?
Originally posted by Jynocidus
LT doesn't work for The Presence, LT works for TOAA. Presence was created by a "TOAA" of a different continuity.
The Presence wasn't created by a TOAA of a different company. The Presence is "TOAA" of a different company.
Originally posted by Cogito
So, do you see Cytorrak as a plot device and potentially above LT?The Presence wasn't created by a TOAA of a different company. The Presence is "TOAA" of a different company.
Yeah, I'd say Cytorrak is more powerful than LT on arrival. However, should LT pass judgement, Cytorrak would have to comply.
All LT has to do is call upon his powers as the embodiment of equity, and his powers are either equal or > to anyone including the presence. That's how I'm thinking.
When the writers....present Presence on panel, that is not a writer. That is a character. The fat guy with the grey mustache and the hat.
Originally posted by Jynocidus
Yeah, I'd say Cytorrak is more powerful than LT on arrival. However, should LT pass judgement, Cytorrak would have to comply.All LT has to do is call upon his powers as the embodiment of equity, and his powers are either equal or > to anyone including the presence. That's how I'm thinking.
I never said Cytorrak would beat LT, I just said *on arrival* he might be more powerful. Cytorrak cannot do nor does he represent the same significance as LT.
Cytorrak is more the power, where LT is...the enforcing / governing or arbitrary functionality. If you don't fall in line with LT's expectations, you get corrected.
Originally posted by Jynocidus
I never said Cytorrak would beat LT, I just said *on arrival* he might be more powerful. Cytorrak cannot do nor does he represent the same significance as LT.Cytorrak is more the power, where LT is...the enforcing / governing or arbitrary functionality. If you don't fall in line with LT's expectations, you get corrected.
Originally posted by Utrigita
... 😕 ... 🤨 ... dur ...
Cytorrak is as much a plot device as the speed force in its entirety, the emotional spectrum in its entirety, the source in its entirety, christ (presence), anti-christ (geb), likely the most powerful celestial and whatever the opposite of a celestial is.
where certain powers like...emotional spectrum and speed force have opposites (think black flash, white racer / black lanterns, white lanters), cytorrak grants invulnerability which is why Cytorrak himself says "good, evil...its all the same" or something like that. His power should be like them both because power is the same regardless. in its rawest form, power / force is...i'll say special before it gains any positive or negative divisions.
in marvel and dc, it's different. but i do not see the presence as outside of LT's scope of power, because necessity outweighs them all. And I still say LT solos.
LT solos. What a joke! He needs 3 heads to be in sync to pass judgement . While they are bickering on one another to find reason for probable cause, their heads are already on a popsicle stick.
Originally posted by Jynocidus
Cytorrak is as much a plot device as the speed force in its entirety, the emotional spectrum in its entirety, the source in its entirety, christ (presence), anti-christ (geb), likely the most powerful celestial and whatever the opposite of a celestial is.where certain powers like...emotional spectrum and speed force have opposites (think black flash, white racer / black lanterns, white lanters), cytorrak grants invulnerability which is why Cytorrak himself says "good, evil...its all the same" or something like that. His power should be like them both because power is the same regardless. in its rawest form, power / force is...i'll say special before it gains any positive or negative divisions.
in marvel and dc, it's different. but i do not see the presence as outside of LT's scope of power, because necessity outweighs them all. And I still say LT solos.
What makes you think that his heads won't be in place to pass judgement? I don't see any lasting damage being dealt to his being, considering he's the embodiment of equity and all. I think powers that discriminate against nothing can call on adequate defenses to combat the presence.
the presence isn't omnipotent to me. there is only one true creator, just like one of the watchers said i think. for the presence to be considered omnipotent, it would need to have created literally everything in existence. for this thread, there are obviously beings from an entire continuity that it did not create opposing it. that alone means presence is not "all powerful."
LT should know that. And that simple fact makes him more omnipotent than Presence. it'd only take one judgement to seal a win.