Originally posted by Galan007
Death of the Endless also confirmed that Lucifer/Michael were responsible for creating Yahweh'sactualityUNIVERSE :
http://imgur.com/JpTisIxDunno if anyone is still disputing this(stopped following the thread a few pages ago), but that much is definitely fact.
Originally posted by Galan007Nobody is disputing it. They're just trying to twist my position to hide their sh1tty assumptions and reverse-projections.
Death of the Endless also confirmed that Lucifer/Michael were responsible for creating Yahweh's actuality:
http://imgur.com/JpTisIxDunno if anyone is still disputing this(stopped following the thread a few pages ago), but that much is definitely fact.
What do we know about the Mansions of Silence that are supposed to be this sh1tty ace-card proving Lucifer's multiversality?
#1 Both Lucifer and Michael were present at the "first" recorded big bang.
#2 Michael never knew about Yahweh's previous play-throughs of creation per the revelations of the pool.
#3 These previous play-throughs of creation were so fragile, they were obliterated by Lucifer's very presence.
As such, the "first" recorded big bang that Lucifer and Michael were responsible for, did not produce the Mansions of Silence and these sh1tty shades/memories of alternate universes. Indeed, Michael never knew about these previous play-through cast-offs. Indeed, Lucifer could not have molded them as they would have been obliterated by his very presence.
Ergo, Lucifer never created a multiverse the "first" or "second" time. And the Yahweh creation primarily dealt with throughout Lucifer was a universe. And while it was widely thought of as the "first" and "only" creation of Yahweh's, it wasn't. Yahweh dabbled a thousand times beforehand and had creation-making down to a science before ever creating Lucifer and Michael. Creation was never their purpose, it turns out. It was inheritance and randomness. And these cast-off creations that preceded the Yahweh creation primarily dealt with throughout Lucifer, were nothing but mere shades/mirrors/memories of failed universes contained in mirrors so fragile, a boat shattered them and Lucifer's mere presence obliterated them. Hardly the stuff of fully alternate universes that my standard bears down on.
Accordingly, trying to reverse-project multiversality onto Lucifer's creation feat (the first or the second) based on the Mansions of Silence is a farce. It always was.
Originally posted by Galan007
Are you still trying to underplay Lucifer's feat of manipulating the infinite energy of God to his whim? If so, ElOhEl @ your inability to get a clue. If not, then good on ya. 🙂
So MICHAEL AND LUCIFER created a UNIVERSE. Lucifer is in this thread, Michael isn't. So their SHARED feat is meaningless to this thread.
Got it? Good on ya.
Originally posted by ODG
Butchering of simple English again, so.....read ahead, and we'll see who's got the evidence on his side.
We both know that evidence is on my side. After all, that's exactly the reason why you dismissed "the rest of my post" (which directly contradicts what you said) as irrelevant.
You claimed that Michael and Lucifer had nothing to do with Yahweh's creation. I brought on panel and bio confirmations that they did. You ignored it. It's that simple.
Originally posted by ODG
It's yet another reference to the universality of the creations that Lucifer dealt with in his journey. No matter how flimsy your reverse-projection, twice removed, is.
1. There's no confirmation that Elaine's creation is a multiverse, but the fact that it does stand beside and is the equivalent of Yahweh's (a confirmed multiverse) and Lucifer's (arguably, a multiverse), does strengthen its case.
2. Calling it a "universe" doesn't prove much considering that's what Yahweh's creation is referred to. And his is a multiverse, unarguably, no matter how much you wanna deny it.
Originally posted by ODG
Nobody gives a sh1t about bios. I, least of all.
OK, and i know you dislike bios and don't read them, which is why i presented it to you, it's best that your opinion is backed by a bio than nothing....no?
Originally posted by ODG
just told you to shut up since you're trying to cover up for your reading gaffes. But I decided to lay out for you why I find your posts to be tedious. I'll do my best not to outright bash you, but don't expect me to not condescend. I shouldn't have to explain how much your posts lack focus, partly because you jump in between conversations and pick and choose what you want to address without context of why they were asserted. Moreover, you keep forcing your assumptions (heretofore, unproven) on the conversation I have with other posters. It's called sticking words into other people's mouths. Which is doubly ironic, when the entire discussion revolves around whether my standards are met by the Lucifer's creation feat. Not your standards and your assumptions.
Im trying to cover up for my "reading gaffes"?
Yeah, that's your side of the story; because from where i stand, you're just trying to avoid the real issue (which is, Yahweh's creation does meet your standards despite the fact that you're trying to make it seem that it doesn't).
Focus? Really? I mean, a few pages ago, you presented a scan of "lucifer's universe" from issue #12 when it wasn't even created yet, the whole story revolves around Lucifer's plan unfolding and in the end creating his multiverse, so even if you didn't read the comics for 50 years, you couldn't have missed something that important. That's total focus on your part, right???? Let's not pretend your any more focused than i am.
I haven't put any words in your mouth, that's just you talking instead of clarifying your stance and end the confusion. Shouldn't be too hard.
And please, don't talk about tiresome, because if anything, you have no idea about how your posts are tiresome, when you were pretending not to understand that i was talking about Yahweh's creation and not Lucifer's across half a dozen posts.
Even now, you're still pretending, despite the fact that i have clarified it a hundred times over that im talking about Lucifer creating Yahweh's initial creation and not the one Lucifer created in issue #13.
Originally posted by ODG
Lucifer had nothing to do with them. And while they're arguably shades and memories of failed universes, they're not fully alternate universes. Reread my standards on page 8 and read ahead.
Go ahead and prove (which you can't) that they're not full alternate universes.
If anyone needs to be reminded, we see an alternate version of a character (Cal):
http://i.imgur.com/tyQWgY4.jpg?1
Just so everyone here looks at the facts.
We saw them named as "other universeS" "other "creationS", we saw an alternate version of the character. The fact that you're trying to deny something made so clear, tells us just how far you're willing to go to lowball Lucifer.
Originally posted by ODG
It was revealed that God had played his creation "through a thousand times . . . knew its growth and decay to a nicety . . . ." Because he's done it on his own before. Lucifer and Michael weren't required for those previous play-throughs, plainly stated by Yahweh's thoughts in the pool. Lucifer and Michael were the point of the current creation that most of the Lucifer series dealt with. They did create that universe.
Completely incorrect.
Let's look at the full scan shall we:
http://i.imgur.com/TzPsb2F.jpg
"There was no need for a weaver to spin the light into suns ... BUT I HAD TO TEACH YOU YOUR SKILLS
So what Yahweh is tell us here, is that he foresaw the future that creation can naturally grow without Lucifer and Michael but he specifically assigned them to do so, because he had to teach them their skills. Lucifer #75, directly depicts Yahweh assigning Lucifer/Michael/Gabriel their roles:
http://i.imgur.com/Q8gh22W.jpg
-------------------------------------
Lucifer #26 directly credits Michael and Lucifer for Yahweh's creation (this is confirmed several times, too)
http://i.imgur.com/Sv0IZh9.jpg?1
the Vertigo Encyclopedia outright says that they're the ones responsible for his creation:
http://i.imgur.com/lfrDAlz.jpg?1
-------------------------------------
And what you're suggesting is impossible, because we know that prior to God's current creation/multiverse which were created by Lucifer and Michael, Silk Man's creation existed (Lucifer #29 letter page):
http://i.imgur.com/1Irzyw0.jpg?1
So, there was no creations before Lucifer/Michael.
Hope you're not gonna try to deny this. Because it's just plain and simple undeniable on panel evidence + bio confirmation. 👆
Originally posted by ODG
They're both universal. So even if your loaded question has gone totally unnoticed/ignored before, now you have your reason as to why your irrelevant question never got answered. Because you loaded your question with a blank assumption based on your own preconceptions rather than mine.Despite your questions purporting to be aimed at taking my own considerations into play. Your posts may not be laced with insults like Epicurus', which is refreshing, but I find them to be increasingly oafish because of your propensity for putting words into other people's mouths and making assumptions that aren't being taken for granted.
Indeed, these are the very assumptions being disputed over pages of discussion.
No, i based it on your response here:
Originally posted by ODG
^ If someone were to miss a few random issues of Lucifer and not have read several obscure issues involving Death/Dream outside of Lucifer's series, they'd completely miss out on how multiversal Lucifer actually was.
That tells me you do acknowledge that Lucifer being above the endless, multiversal+ beings, does in fact confirm his multiversal power.
Although now, you're still sticking to this lowballing. So im going to repost (with some adjustments) my argument about Lucifer > Endless here, so you can't dispute it, while setting aside Lucifer's confirmed multiversal showing of creating Yahweh's creation, which you ignored based on.....nothing
DEATH
----------------
We know that Death can operate beyond the mainstream Vertigo multiverse (even though you don't agree that Lucifer's creation is a multiverse, it's unarguable that this creation of his is beyond Yahweh's multiverse, completely separate), which happened in Lucifer #25, her 2008 bio confirms that she does have a role to play in his cosmos:
http://i.imgur.com/JbkdIPk.jpg?1
Lucifer #75, Silk Man who's now beyond creation, thought that he's beyond Death, Lucifer assures him that he only delayed the inevitable:
http://i.imgur.com/gybfbsz.jpg
Yet we know that she has no claim over Lucifer, even in his weakened state, Lucifer #26:
http://i.imgur.com/epJdnVW.jpg
Dream
----------------
5 issues prior to the issue of Lucifer's meeting with Dream, in Sandman #18, a thousand humans managed to change the whole universe with the power of Dream (From its beginning to the end) in Sandman v2 #18:
http://i.imgur.com/fKDqYQ8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2nIVjD6.jpg
pay attention to this panel:
http://i.imgur.com/g08hjDH.jpg?2
In Morrison's JLA, Doctor Destiny after projecting his dream self to the material world, achieves absolute omnipotence:
http://i.imgur.com/NpmtOIh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ErXsqKb.jpg
In the end it literally took 7 JLA members to project their dream selves, to make it 7 omnipotents (the exact terminology was actually mentioned) to defeat him.
JLA classified #36:
batman says that materioptikon (dreamstone) created multiple realities:
http://i.imgur.com/4yFm2qe.jpg
earlier in the issue it's stated that the Red King created infinite versions of himself (or billion at least), which would mean he created billions of universes given that each version of him is from a different universe:
http://i.imgur.com/YT97H6d.jpg
Sandman #7, Dreamstone is part of Dream's power
http://i.imgur.com/2JAKc1p.jpg
******
Observe, everyone, how Dream compares to Lucifer:
Dream was outright scared of Lucifer in Sandman #23:
http://i.imgur.com/kBZ62dH.jpg?1
When asked whether Lucifer is more powerful than him Dream declares:
http://i.imgur.com/6rtp1fD.jpg?1
"Oh yes, by far"
But, but Lucifer is universal! And considering Dream's power is literally nothing when compared to Lucifer, that would mean Dream is what, Galaxy level (when we've seen a part of his part create countless realities)??? Please, this is getting laughable.
Destiny
-----------------
His book's significance is on a creation-level scale. As shown in Brave and the Bold v3 #4 (in that story it was regarded as being in the possession of "the ultimate power" as i recall), any alterations made to the book (like the challengers of the unknown beings outside of it, and thus causing it to be altered), will unravel reality itself:
http://i.imgur.com/9SiusWE.jpg?1
Confirmed again in Lucifer #52:
http://i.imgur.com/78CTD15.jpg?1
The guy also operates across universeS, as shown in History of DCU:
http://i.imgur.com/rXDy5Gu.jpg?1
We know that Death >> any of the endless.
We know for a fact that Lucifer is the 2nd most powerful being in all creation (along with Michael), as stated in Sandman #22, for instance:
http://i.imgur.com/Mh652WG.jpg?1
Carey seems sure that Lucifer is, he said so in a Letters page from Lucifer #29:
http://i.imgur.com/w6toR4M.jpg?1
Somehow though, the 2nd most powerful being in all creation (which is filled with multiversal and multiversal+ beings), is universal. Makes perfect sense.....doesn't it, ODG?
Im not going to repost the Tim Hunter showings because you saw those as well. A guy who can unknowingly create an entire multiverse without even knowing it, yet, we both know that Vertigo has established Lucifer to be the most powerful being after Yahweh. I]Books of Magic[/I] even has direct references to Lucifer as i showed you, so don't try and make an argument that they're dissociated.
Yeah, you're not going to have me believe Lucifer is universal with just typing "Lucifer is universal", you better have a damn good argument. Even putting aside your lousy "standards" you've gotta admit at least something that is undeniable: Lucifer dwarfs multiversal entities.
Unless you disprove the above facts (which you can't), consider your "Lucifer is universal" argument completely and utterly torn apart. 👆
Originally posted by zopzop
Yup, they MICHAEL AND LUCIFER created a universe. UNIverse. According to that scan.
When you read the series and comprehend in what context "the universe" is used, then make an argument and stop with this nonsensical lowballing.
We saw alternate universes with alternate characters on panel.
But wait, the alternate versions apparently, came before the prime universe, right? .... Please.
I (and Galan) already presented on panel and bio accounts which confirm that Lucifer and Michael created everything in Yahweh's creation apart from the silver city and the earth. They were the ones who created everything else (including the alternate universes).
....But since you are so willing to lowball even Yahweh's creation to universe-size, tell me something, what are you basing off CK being multiversal? More on point, how on earth does CK compare to a being, who dwarfs multiversal entities (you aren't going to tell me statements supersede actual on panel depictions, are you?) Go right ahead and answer that.
Originally posted by zopzopYou are so hate-filled at this point that it's borderline sad.
Yeah. God's 'infinite' energy created A UNIverse. UNIverse.So MICHAEL AND LUCIFER created a UNIVERSE. Lucifer is in this thread, Michael isn't. So their [b]SHARED
feat is meaningless to this thread.Got it? Good on ya. [/B]
I could give two shits what the scale of Yahweh's(or Lucifer's) creation was--that much is entirely irrelevant to the debate at hand, as this is not a 'universe-off'. The point is that Yahweh himself possessed infinite power/true omnipotence--Michael also possessed that power within him--Lucifer effortlessly warped the totality of said infinite/demiurgic power on more than one occasion. That said, if he can manipulate an infinite magnitude of energy to his whim, he can certainly manipulate energy less than infinite to his whim. Once more, if I can lift 100lbs, I can probably lift 50lbs as well. Basic logic is basic.
With that in mind, how exactly do you believe the far-less-than-omnipotent CK can possibly win? By somehow usurping Lucifer on the dream plane(lulz)? By stabbing him with some stabby-stabs? By punching him? Puh-lease.
Lucifer wins. I don't really care if he resorts to BFR, he still wins 10/10.
Originally posted by operator616
When you read the series and comprehend in what context "the universe" is used, then make an argument and stop with this nonsensical lowballing.We saw alternate universes with alternate characters on panel.
But wait, the alternate versions apparently, came before the prime universe, right? .... Please.
I (and Galan) already presented on panel and bio accounts which confirm that Lucifer and Michael created everything in Yahweh's creation apart from the silver city and the earth. They were the ones who created everything else (including the alternate universes).
....But since you are so willing to lowball even Yahweh's creation to universe-size, tell me something, what are you basing off CK being multiversal? More on point, how on earth does CK compare to a being, who dwarfs multiversal entities? Go right ahead and answer that.
Originally posted by Galan007
You are so hate-filled at this point that it's borderline sad.I could give two shits what the scale of Yahweh's(or Lucifer's) creation was--that much is entirely irrelevant to the debate at hand, as this is not a 'universe-off'. The point is that Yahweh himself possessed infinite power/true omnipotence--Michael also possessed that power within him--Lucifer effortlessly warped the totality of said infinite/demiurgic power on more than one occasion. That said, if he can manipulate an infinite magnitude of energy to his whim, certainly he can manipulate energy less than that magnitude to his whim as well. Once more, if I can lift 100lbs, I can probably lift 50lbs as well. Basic logic is basic.
With that in mind, how exactly do you believe the far-less-than-omnipotent CK is winning? By somehow usurping Lucifer on the dream plane(lulz)? By stabbing him with some stabby-stabs? By punching him? Puh-lease.
And what's wrong with stabby stabby? Michael was stabbed by a phucking SPEAR. A SPEAR.
Stabby stabby feeb.
^ He's been called that, yes, but his on panel performance wasn't that impressive.
Originally posted by zopzop
So Death, Lucifer, various other beings, and YAHWEH HIMSELF in the Lucifer series calling creation a UNIVERSE is what exactly?
Statements supersede actual on panel depiction then, ey? We SAW alternate universes. Period. Don't care if you acknowledge that, just don't pretend you're not outright ignoring evidence.
Let's apply your logic though:
Herc says that he restored "the universe":
http://i.imgur.com/sHVM1Hf.jpg
Handbooks confirmation about CK being universal:
Blockbusters of the MU:
http://i.imgur.com/64C92ib.jpg?1
"Chaos King's attempt to revert reality-616"
----------------------------
Fear itself handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/JPppRnf.jpg?1
"..consuming the universe entire"
---------------------------
Heroic age: Villains
http://i.imgur.com/VUlLsya.jpg?2
Chaos King Scope: "Universal"
Ok cool. Both Lucifer's and CK's feats are universal.
Now see, difference is, Lucifer dwarfs multiversal beings, as opposed to CK who's merely a small lousy aspect of an abstract.
Consider your argument torn apart, by your own standards. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer wins. I don't really care if he resorts to BFR, he still wins 10/10.
👆 Doesn't really have to resort to BFR. CK will be scared of him just like Dream was.
Originally posted by zopzopI refuse to believe you are this daft. The point, dear zop, is that Lucifer possesses an unlimited capacity to manipulate energy. I can say this with confidence because I saw him manipulate the infinite(literally) power of God. Effortlessly. This is why it's
Point is, Lucifer created A UNIVERSE with his brother MICHAEL. Only one of these beings is in this thread and [hint] it's not the person that provided the POWER NECESSARY for the shared feat. Do you get that?
...But really, that's neither here nor there. A simple BFR would end this 'battle' in a matter of seconds. 🙂
Originally posted by zopzopYou just made it a point to say that Michael is not applicable to this thread--then use him as an example to try and downplay Lucifer(a completely different character)... In the very next sentence. Lol, hate-fueled/irrational posts are fun. 👆
And what's wrong with stabby stabby? Michael was stabbed by a phucking SPEAR. A SPEAR.
[edit]
And I could give you the exact reason *why* Michael was able to be stabbed with 'a phucking spear'(it had to do with a moment of doubt/hesitation that was capitalized on), but I'll refrain. You'll likely just ignore it in favor of your own special brand of cherry-picking, anyway. 👆
Originally posted by operator616
^ He's been called that, yes, but his on panel performance wasn't that impressive.Statements supersede actual on panel depiction then, ey? We SAW alternate universes. Period. Don't care if you acknowledge that, just don't pretend you're not outright ignoring evidence.
Let's apply your logic though:
Herc says that he restored "the universe":
http://i.imgur.com/sHVM1Hf.jpg
Handbooks confirmation about CK being universal:
Blockbusters of the MU:
http://i.imgur.com/64C92ib.jpg?1
"Chaos King's attempt to revert reality-616"
----------------------------
Fear itself handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/JPppRnf.jpg?1
"..consuming the universe entire"
---------------------------
Heroic age: Villains
http://i.imgur.com/VUlLsya.jpg?2
Chaos King Scope: "Universal"
Ok cool. Both Lucifer's and CK's feats are universal.
Now see, difference is, Lucifer dwarfs multiversal beings, as opposed to CK who's merely a small lousy aspect of an abstract.
Consider your argument torn apart, by your own standards. 👆
👆 Doesn't really have to resort to BFR. CK will be scared of him just like Dream was.
What's your point?
If CK's and SG Herc's feats aren't multiversal based on the back and forth between universe and multiverse referring to it, then for sure Lucifer/Michael's feat isn't multiversal.
Originally posted by Galan007
I refuse to believe you are this daft. The point, dear zop, is that Lucifer possesses an unlimited capacity to manipulate energy. I can say this with confidence because I saw him manipulate the infinite(literally) power of God. Effortlessly. This is why it'simpossiblehard for me to see CK not being affected by Lucifer's infinite will....But really, that's neither here nor there. A simple BFR would end this 'battle' in a matter of seconds. 🙂
And it's sweet that he manipulated God's Demiurgic energy with him being God's will. Wow. Some feat.
You just made it a point to say that Michael is not applicable to this thread--then use him as an example to try and downplay Lucifer(a completely different character)... In the very next sentence.Heh, hate-fueled/poorly-thought-out posts are fun. 👆
Originally posted by zopzopZop, your hate has made you weak and irrational. This post is just...well...full-retard. 👆BS. Lucifer would self BFR himself out of fear of being absorbed and killed by CK.
And it's sweet that he manipulated God's Demiurgic energy with him being God's will. Wow. Some feat.
The point is, the angels are vastly overrated. The guy that represents GOD'S POWER was stabbed by a spear and held hostage. During the war in heaven the angels were fighting with SWORDS AND SPEARS (you know like iron age humans). CK would tentacle rape either Michael or Lucifer.
Originally posted by red sabre
and here i thought ODG had enough of the sodomizing he recieved. but he still wanted some more and he got owned again even harder
Originally posted by Galan007
Zop, your hate has made you weak and irrational. This post is just...well...full-retard. 👆
Tell me, dear zop, why you are attempting to use Michael's extremely situational 'low' showing to downplay Lucifer? You realize Michael and Lucifer are entirely different characters, correct? You realize Michael being speared has absolutely nothing to do with Lucifer's ability to warp infinite energy, correct? You realize how desperately weak your argumentation is, correct?
For anyone who is interested, and most importantly, not so hate-fueled that they've become entirely illogical...
Michael was only able to be speared, because he hesitated just before slaying Lucifer's entire host of fallen angels--and in that moment of hesitation he became weak...And that weakness was capitalized on by Sandalphon:
http://imgur.com/CVgBBbH
"You could have ended the war right then. Ended all of us with a gesture. But you hesitated--and in that moment I struck you down."
But yeah, the incessant hate/downplaying is thoroughly amusing, as always. 👆
