Originally posted by ODG
completely hiding from entire posts altogether...
If anything, it's you who has this awful tendency to snip away segments of my posts and even missing a few of my posts on the previous pages once you realized that you were backed into a corner by Lucifer-fans courtesy of you stupidly ignoring my warning and opening a Pandora's Box with your sh1tty dumbconstruction of Lucifer's feat. 🙂
Originally posted by ODG
I absolutely understand. And I absolutely deny that the original Big Bang as revisited throughout the pages of Lucifer created an infinite set of alternate Earths and respective universes. So stow it and read the scans:
Ah, so now we're going by what was stated as opposed to what was actually shown (alternate universes with alternate characters); did you forget what your standards dictate? Hmm......
you tried to low-ball the Lucifer #13 feat by saying that alternate universes weren't depicted throughout the series, so ok, i was willing to put that aside and focus on Lucifer's initial feat. Creating Yahweh's multiverse which is confirmed to contain alternate universes.
Not that i expect you to acknowledge it because we both know it'll destroy all your arguments across several pages of this thread, so naturally, you're not going to concede this point. Not surprised.
Originally posted by ODG
Conflating the loaded term, "dimensions," with fully functioning alternate reality universes proves what exactly? More to the point, what does it prove about Lucifer's creation in issue #13, that was attacked by the Basanos in issues #21-23 and ultimately subsumed by Elaine's creation in #69? Keep running away from the actual feat at issue here.
Talk about being purposely stupid....
Are you really still pretending that im talking about Lucifer's multiverse? Or is it just that hard to understand?
Lucifer cut his wings before he even created the multiverse, so how on earth are you interpreting that those scans have anything to do with Lucifer's multiverse? I am clearly talking about Yahweh's creation.
Originally posted by ODG
If you think the pathetic shade angels (numbering in the billions) populating the Mansions of Silence are equivalent to the infinite DC Multiverse that existed before Crisis of Infinite Earths or are equivalent to the infinite Marvel Multiverse policed by the Captain Britain Corps as depicted in Excalibur, then I don't know what to do for you. I'd highly suggest you reread Yahweh's revelations to Michael and Lucifer in the pool. And what ultimately ended up happening to the Mansions of Silence.
CB corps police the omniverse (Although in the the captain britain related books, the terms omniverse and multiverse are mostly used interchangeably).
That aside, nice low-balling. I mean, if you really think that the pathetic Marvel omniverse is as fragile as Yahweh's, seeing as how a significant portion of the omniverse was getting destroyed when the french and english empires of an alternate earth went to battle (no kidding), in New Exiles.....
http://i.imgur.com/aWDQswP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pHLtVdP.jpg?1
.....then i don't know what to do for you.
Well then, it's established that the CK is english/french empire-level. 👆
Keep low-balling. I can do it just as well.
We see countless alternate universes on panel, with alternate version of a character. You seem to be trying very hard to make it seem like that's irrelevant. Since it absolutely decimates your entire argument from top to bottom.
See, Lucifer and Michael did create a multiverse even going by your standards. Keep running away from that.
Originally posted by ODG
Because the Mansions of Silence have nothing to do with Lucifer's creation.
the Mansion of Silence have everything to do with what Lucifer created. Throughout the Journey, we see alternate universes, confirming that Yahweh's creation contains countless alternate universes. Lucifer and Michael created that, period. No need to keep denying it, that's an established fact.
Originally posted by ODG
Being purposefully this stupid is a god damned insult.
😂
Coming from the guy who initially said that Lucifer, the 2nd most powerful being in all creation (filled with trans-multiversal beings, and others who create multiverses without even knowing it), is universal? That's quite rich.
....But we also did shut down this hilarious low-balling of yours, didn't we? Because of this quote of yours, after scans were posted:
Originally posted by ODG
^ If someone were to miss a few random issues of Lucifer and not have read several obscure issues involving Death/Dream outside of Lucifer's series, they'd completely miss out on how multiversal Lucifer actually was. That's really the consequence of your's and operator616's argument.
So you agree that Lucifer is multiversal (not that you have much of a choice at this point)
Glad that's settled, then. CK is universal (your own standards), and Lucifer is multiversal (even if you do not acknowledge any of his creations being a multiverse, which you should, at least Yahweh's).
So, it shouldn't be hard to pick a winner....should it? And concede the point that CK > Lucifer.
If you do not, then go right ahead and explain how a being, who dwarfs multiversal entities, isn't more powerful than a universal one (Chaos King). Id like to hear that.
Originally posted by operator616
Ah, so now we're going by what was stated as opposed to what was actually shown (alternate universes with alternate characters); did you forget what your standards dictate? Hmm......you tried to low-ball the Lucifer #13 feat by saying that alternate universes weren't depicted throughout the series, so ok, i was willing to put that aside and focus on Lucifer's initial feat. Creating Yahweh's multiverse which is confirmed to contain alternate universes.
Not that i expect you to acknowledge it because we both know it'll destroy all your arguments across several pages of this thread, so naturally, you're not going to concede this point. Not surprised.
Talk about being purposely stupid....
Are you really still pretending that im talking about Lucifer's multiverse? Or is it just that hard to understand?
Lucifer cut his wings before he even created the multiverse, so how on earth are you interpreting that those scans have anything to do with Lucifer's multiverse? I am clearly talking about Yahweh's creation.
CB corps police the omniverse (Although in the the captain britain related books, the terms omniverse and multiverse are mostly used interchangeably).
That aside, nice low-balling. I mean, if you really think that the pathetic Marvel omniverse is as fragile as Yahweh's, seeing as how a significant portion of the omniverse was getting destroyed when the french and english empires of an alternate earth went to battle (no kidding), in New Exiles.....
http://i.imgur.com/aWDQswP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pHLtVdP.jpg?1.....then i don't know what to do for you.
Well then, it's established that the CK is english/french empire-level. 👆
Keep low-balling. I can do it just as well.
We see countless alternate universes on panel, with alternate version of a character. You seem to be trying very hard to make it seem like that's irrelevant. Since it absolutely decimates your entire argument from top to bottom.
See, Lucifer and Michael did create a multiverse even going by your standards. Keep running away from that.
the Mansion of Silence have everything to do with what Lucifer created. Throughout the Journey, we see alternate universes, confirming that Yahweh's creation contains countless alternate universes. Lucifer and Michael created that, period. No need to keep denying it, that's an established fact.
😂
Coming from the guy who initially said that Lucifer, the 2nd most powerful being in all creation (filled with trans-multiversal beings, and others who create multiverses without even knowing it), is universal? That's quite rich.
....But we also did shut down this hilarious low-balling of yours, didn't we? Because of this quote of yours, after scans were posted:
So you agree that Lucifer is multiversal (not that you have much of a choice at this point)
Glad that's settled, then. CK is universal (your own standards), and Lucifer is multiversal (even if you do not acknowledge any of his creations being a multiverse, which you should, at least Yahweh's).
So, it shouldn't be hard to pick a winner....should it? And concede the point that CK > Lucifer.
If you do not, then go right ahead and explain how a being, who dwarfs multiversal entities, isn't more powerful than a universal one (Chaos King). Id like to hear that.
Wow you just OWNED ODG so hard he will only feel it in the morning and wish he had some vaseline.
Originally posted by abhilegend
"Repaired the universe."http://i.imgur.com/lM5qG3z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lM5qG3z.jpg
"This world".
Herc himself said he restored the universe, not multiverse.
mmm
Or the fact that the involvement of the Demiurgos makes his feat vastly less impressive than Herc's. Or that Yahweh's creation is a universe despite a whole storyline involving alternate realities and alternate versions of the main characters, all portrayed on-panel as being part of said Creation.
Somehow, none of that counts. What does count is random cropped scans which anyone knowledgeable about Lucifer has seen before, and knows doesn't in any way take away from the multiversal scope of the feat.
The sheer magnitude of stupidity and mental gymnastics that have been applied in this thread to downsize Lucifer's feat and upscale the Chaos King's power level is mind-bogglingly huge. Like the Chaos King's planet-sized tentacles huge.
Let's add 3 handbooks about CK being universal, shall we?
Blockbusters of the MU:
http://i.imgur.com/64C92ib.jpg?1
"Chaos King's attempt to revert reality-616"
----------------------------
Fear itself handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/JPppRnf.jpg?1
"..consuming the universe entire"
---------------------------
Heroic age: Villains
http://i.imgur.com/VUlLsya.jpg?2
Chaos King Scope: "Universal"
Yeah.....Lucifer's is flimsier.
If i really wanted to low-ball Chaos King (like ODG is doing with Lucifer's feat), id do a superb job as well.
Originally posted by operator616
Let's add 3 handbooks about CK being universal, shall we?Blockbusters of the MU:
http://i.imgur.com/64C92ib.jpg?1
"Chaos King's attempt to revert reality-616"
----------------------------
Fear itself handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/JPppRnf.jpg?1
"..consuming the universe entire"
---------------------------
Heroic age: Villains
http://i.imgur.com/VUlLsya.jpg?2
Chaos King Scope: "Universal"
Yeah.....Lucifer's is flimsier.
If i really wanted to low-ball Chaos King (like ODG is doing with Lucifer's feat), id do a superb job as well.
Originally posted by Epicurus
Did you not get the memo? Only the colloquial references to Lucifer's creation being a "universe" count. Since the case for Lucifer's feat is flimsier than Chaos King's.Or the fact that the involvement of the Demiurgos makes his feat vastly less impressive than Herc's. Or that Yahweh's creation is a universe despite a whole storyline involving alternate realities and alternate versions of the main characters, all portrayed on-panel as being part of said Creation.
Somehow, none of that counts. What does count is random cropped scans which anyone knowledgeable about Lucifer has seen before, and knows doesn't in any way take away from the multiversal scope of the feat.
The sheer magnitude of stupidity and mental gymnastics that have been applied in this thread to downsize Lucifer's feat and upscale the Chaos King's power level is mind-bogglingly huge. Like the Chaos King's planet-sized tentacles huge.
the amount of confusion engendered by a single word--universe--is....staggering. but as often as universe is used in lucifer, CREATION is probably used even more often, and i think that's the more apt term. nor do i believe the 2 terms should be equated at all. to use the more limiting term 'universe' (even though we all know universe has been used interchangeably in comics with other, larger meanings too many times to count.....) to describe the vertigo-verse is blatantly and willfully wrong imo and clearly ignores surrounding context that is essential to understanding the nature of vertigo and yahweh's creation. the reliance on the unreliable language (universe in this case) is.....beyond puzzling to me. the only way to end this would be to get a mod ruling. people could keep their own thoughts privately, but on the forum, it would be a rule that vertigo is indeed a multiverse. i'm sure pr or bada could look at the evidence presented and come to a rather quick conclusion. looking at the evidence for lucifer's creation, we could likely get a ruling just as quickly on that point as well. i'm not gonna presume to speak for everyone here, but that might be the only way to definitively get the point across and end what has become a pretty tiresome discussion. 😬
Originally posted by EpicurusThen let's see some more, because they obviously make people more upset, when the universality of each of their creations is exposed throughout the entire series on-panel. You would hope, at some point, simple English would prevail:
It absolutely does, because anyone who's argued in Lucifer threads has already seen those scans
Originally posted by EpicurusNot a true multiverse of alternate universes. Just a universe containing normal space-time and its subset of dimensions/realms. The same definition used by other writers in comics. Because we never once see these alternate universes in Lucifer's creation on-panel. Just like we never see the alternate universes that CHaos King ate or Supergod Hercules restored. There's a difference in magnitude of infinity between universe and multiverse. And it has to be clear. It's a larger difference between planetary and galactic. Here, it is not. Here, it is more clear that Lucifer's creation was a universe.
, and it's fairly clear to them that the colloquial reference of Lucifer's creation as a universe means absolutely nothing with regard to the graphic novel written by the very same writer who also had Lucifer elaborate upon his feat by explaining to Mazikeen that his creation is indeed specifically a multiverse.
Originally posted by EpicurusMost of this proof is from Lucifer's own mouth. Which is probably why it chafes so much.
Not universe, multiverse. When did you find the actual proof from Lucifer's own mouth to be objectionable.
Originally posted by EpicurusIssue # and page #, please. Make it easier to tear down every stupid deflection you try to impose on this thread that has nothing to do with Lucifer's creation feat.
Of course, since you obviously wouldn't then dl the comics and post said scan. But anyways, I'll entertain your hilarity; post the scans of the instance where Master Rudd meets the daughter of the current ruler of Hell and begins his sadomasochistic relationship with her. Deconstruction my ass.
Originally posted by EpicurusActually, I argued that Preacher God created the Preacher universe. We saw Earth, and dimensions outside of normal space-time, like Heaven and Hell. People tried to argue that God only created the planet Earth and not the universe entire. Pretty sure they didn't even agree he created the Sun. I'm arguing virtually the same thing here, except people are now arguing the opposite extreme: Lucifer created a multiverse, not just a universe.
Orly? Lawl, you using the Earth-centric focus of the Lucifer series to somehow downscale the scope at which the Lucifer/Vertigo publications operated. Aren't you the very same guy who pioneered using the Bible as evidence in a Preacher related thread of how the Preacherverse God wasn't anything more than a planetary deity in a debate with Bran? Hilarious. Absolutely hilarious.
That strikes me as my being the temperate medium between those who would lowball and those who would over-inflate. But really, it's just me reading the comics for what they are. Not for what people want to twist them into being. So, thanks for bringing that up I guess.
I'm sure that point didn't just blow up in your face.
Originally posted by EpicurusLucifer and Michael did not create them. Those were the workings of Yahweh who had creation down pat before ever needing Lucifer and Michael. As per the revelations Yahweh bestowed upon the two when they submerged themselves in the pool, before abandoning his creation to them. Failed blueprints. Indeed, a ship made of nails were shattering them and Lucifer's mere presence obliterated the Mansions of Silence entirely.
Except when we actually see Yahweh's creation consisting of Mirrors that contain alternate versions of the prime universe. These alternates, per Bergelmir, are failed versions of the current universe. The very same Creation which Lucifer and Michael originally forged as well in a similar manner as to how Lucifer's creation was forged.
Originally posted by EpicurusYou've already pointed out how Lucifer's creation is specifically different from Yahweh's. So actually, not 2+2. It's just you being laughably over-simplistic in an attempt to reverse-project a flimsy notion of multiversality onto Lucifer's creation. Lucifer created a universe on-panel. Wasn't even the same as Yahweh's admittedly. When you can show me Lucifer creating and tending to countless alternae versions of his universe, heck, even creating the Mansions of Silence for his own creation, maybe you'd have a better point (still sh1tty as the Mansions of Silence are a rather inadequate and frail notion of multiversality, both figuratively and literally).
The very same Creation to which Lucifer's own Creation is essentially identical in shape, manner and form sans an afterlife. Again, this is as simple as adding 2 and 2 together but for some reason you want to make it more complicated than it really is.
Originally posted by EpicurusI'm talking about the comics. You're just using flimsy strawmans, lying, accusing others of spamming, and using infantile fallacies to justify your adolescent prejudices. In other words, typical Epicurus.
Someone's getting mad. Your increasingly incoherent rage-rant style posts are clearly indicative that the scale of your butthurt is directly
Originally posted by leonidasIt's forced. Because people don't want it to be limited to just a universe. It doesn't take away any literary merit that the Lucifer series deserves. But the notion threatens them despite it coming from the series' pages itself. Which is why I can post scan like this:
the amount of confusion engendered by a single word--universe--is....staggering.
And be accused of trolling. Trolling, by posting countless scans of said comic that keep driving the point of universality home that controvert its supposed multiversality, that we're dealing with universal creations throughout Lucifer. There's an argument that, off-panel, Lucifer created an endless set of alternate universes that just so happen to be never once visited within the pages of Lucifer, sure. That Lucifer only opened the gates to Luciverse-1. That the Basanos attacked only Luciverse-1 and ignored all the other Luciverse universes. But we both know that bullsh1t.
