Originally posted by operator616
^ He's been called that, yes, but his on panel performance wasn't that impressive.
i meant to raise this earlier, but why is lucifer being referenced as an abstract by some? he's not a conceptual entity at all. he embodies god's will, but vessel might be a better description. anyway, he's certainly not an abstract in the sense of eternity or oblivion....as we've seen, he's actually BEYOND those concepts. i simply don't see any way at all that a case can be made for ck in this thing.
Originally posted by Epicurus
I disagree. IIRC, Vertigo Odin had enough juice to create a pocket universe, and Fenris is even beyond him.
True, something like that. Odin created a notional dimension and put a small Ragnarok in it. Here are the scans if someone is interested, from Sandman #26:
http://i.imgur.com/9N4DiK8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r6Yzd79.jpg
Originally posted by Epicurus
That coupled with the manner in which he laid waste to Heaven before Lucifer finally stopped his rampage tells me his is skyfather-level at the very least.
Im actually not disputing that Fenris is skyfather level. In a previous thread i said he's on par with Atum/Demogorge (skyfather character). It's just that i thought Bran was implying he was an abstract by saying "Lord of Entropy" (As in, the embodiment of entropy, something which he has been called and even confirmed by a bio), and i was saying that his performance wasn't "all that impressive" relative to him being an abstract.
Skfather? I can understand.
Yeah, Skyfather-ish seems about right for Fenris...
Granted, at first glance Fenris certainly *seemed* like he might wield very uber conceptual power...
"Fenris is the very embodiment of ruin and destruction.":
http://imgur.com/KyGsOj3
However, he was a ultimately just a planetary conceptual embodiment...
"The only place from which to watch the end of the world is another world.":
http://imgur.com/gyD5VT9
ie. Fenris' standard level of influence was contained to earth, and didn't affect other worlds.
His planetary status is further confirmed in his bio...
"In Norse mythology, the embodiment of destruction.":
http://imgur.com/PCfmoIr
Typically lesser gods can't operate beyond planet-level on their own.
That is why Fenris, who wanted the whole of existence to end, needed to destroy Yggdrasil(the focal point of creation) to extend his influence creation-wide:
http://imgur.com/SBagDPo
This is a far cry from the true embodiment of destruction(ie. Destruction of the Endless), who naturally embodies destruction on a creation-spanning level...
"It didn't matter that, in some sense, I was everywhere; nor that I was more powerful than... Well, practically anything.":
http://imgur.com/IdbXrbn
Originally posted by Epicurus
I disagree. IIRC, Vertigo Odin had enough juice to create a pocket universe, and Fenris is even beyond him. That coupled with the manner in which he laid waste to Heaven before Lucifer finally stopped his rampage tells me his is skyfather-level at the very least.
What did Fenris do in Heaven to put him at skyfather-level? On the surface, he held his own in a fight against Lucifer, Mazikeen and Duma. Sounds impressive, but both he and Lucifer were weakened for different plot-related reasons and to unclear extents. And he had Noema's help. And he still died.
The way I read it, Fenris benefits from one-sided prep and Yahweh's deliberately arranging the fight in a way that would let him be surprised by the outcome. In a straight fight, he looks herald-level at his very best.
Well, Fenris did destroy God's throne (primum mobile), by manifesting himself in a lightning bolt, in issue #67:
http://i.imgur.com/1wDPER3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Binr3E1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LTV4wam.jpg
...
http://i.imgur.com/EvNfkeH.jpg?1
Id say that's impressive (Skyfather-level).
Originally posted by Galan007
That is why Fenris, who wanted the whole of existence to end, needed to destroy Yggdrasil(the focal point of creation) to extend his influence creation-wide:
http://imgur.com/SBagDPo
Just want to say that, Fenris exploiting Yggdrasil will also affect Lucifer's creation (as the scan says). So that means Vertigo's Yggrasil has trans-multiversal significance (since it affects different realities beyond Yahweh's multiverse, like Lucifer's).
Originally posted by Galan007
This is a far cry from the true embodiment of destruction(ie. Destruction of the Endless), who naturally embodies destruction on a creation-spanning level..."It didn't matter that, in some sense, I was everywhere; nor that I was more powerful than... Well, practically anything.":
http://imgur.com/IdbXrbn
👆
Not only does the issue outright say that he is the embodiment of destruction, but destruction himself says that atoms and "worlds" get destroyed (confirming that he functions on a creation-wise scale).
