Satele and Marek vs The Sith Emperor

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Vitiate's lightning is most certainly powerful, but Marek is a physically monstrous individual (more than what we've seen from Revan), a "high end master of multiple forms" (more than what we've seen from Revan), wielding a lightsaber capable of deflecting Vitiate's pedestrian lightning (as Revan did), and his Force powers outstrip those we've seen of Revan.

Essentially, he has all the means to perform even better against Vitiate than Revan did and less reason to allow Vitiate the opportunity and time to gather his most potent energies.

And not to forget that Revan have endured several centuries of punishment from Vitiate.

Do not underestimate Revan. Canonically, he was the most powerful Jedi of his time.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Additionally, I'm unaware of any Force powers demonstrated by Vitiate that puts him in excess of Marek.

YouTube video

3 Jedi Masters and the main hero (Jedi Knight) confronted Vitiate and attempted to arrest him. Jedi Master Tol Braga was particularly powerful in the Force and capable of performing decent TK feats and he also failed in this fight. The Sith Emperor overwhelmed his opponents without much effort with his Force Lightning Storm. Vitiate also turned all 4 Jedi in to his puppets after breaking them.

The main hero (Jedi Knight) was able to break free from the mental grip of Vitiate through external assistance after a long time. He was then sent after the others to bring them back.

In addition, Vitiate has demonstrated the capability to create illusions with the Force (I believe, Luke Skywalker has demonstrated this capability once). Vitiate can confuse and pre-occupy Marek with this ability and take advantage.

Furthermore, Vitiate is immortal. He can transfer his essence in to another human, if his body is destroyed.

Also keep in mind that Vitiate has impressive TK abilities. While we do not see him do much in the novel, there are two powerful hints:

1. Vitiate empowered his Elite Guards to such a degree that they could withstand Force based attacks from Revan and Meetra.

2. Vitiate prevented Scourge from striking Revan without any gesture; similar to what Yoda did to Ventress.

Master Tol Braga once fought a Dark Council member for 3 days straight and converted him to the lightside.

@ MewlingQuim

Here is the video:

YouTube video

Made a mistake in my previous response.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Master Tol Braga once fought a Dark Council member for 3 days straight and converted him to the lightside.

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More from Tol Braga:

Tol Braga force-pushed the main hero (Jedi Knight) in mid flight. Very impressive.

Tol Braga came very close to knock-out the main hero (Jedi Knight) with this heavy thing.

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This Jedi Master means business.

Whats even better is he made the guy his padawan afterwards. Braga's a total bamf.

Not selling Revan or Tol Braga short. But Vitiate has done nothing that doesn't require preparation that compares to Marek's powers. If it comes time that blades proverbially clash, then Vitiate goes down hard.

I'm still not sure why a few seconds prep is somehow an ineffective method of defense/attack. Vitiate floored Revan who was balls-out charging him, and then spammed lightning left right and center.

This isn't FF Tactics where you need three to five turns to cast a spell; Force use prep is not unheard of and indeed is consistently referred to as an appropriate way to gather more strength for a stronger use of the Force.

You're assuming because Vitiate made efforts to gather up strength to flatten Revan (which he did utterly) that it's all he can do and therefore something like a Yoda-esque Force push is out of the equation.

SM
I'm still not sure why a few seconds prep is somehow an ineffective method of defense/attack.

Ineffective? Clearly not, since it yielded results with Revan.

SM
Vitiate floored Revan who was balls-out charging him, and then spammed lightning left right and center.

A comparison between Revan and Marek isn't flattering for the former, as the latter enjoys a tremendous advantage in sheer power. As Neph pointed out, Marek is also capable of hurling TIE Fighters with his bare hands, indicating that his physical strength vastly outstrips Revan's as well, which means that it's unlikely Vitiate's pedestrian!lightning will impede Marek to the extent that it did Revan (I refer to how the impact stopped Revan in his tracks). Marek is also a Juyo practitioner, which requires him to have been a "high end master of multiple forms" and therefore absolutely lethal with a lightsaber.

SM
You're assuming because Vitiate made efforts to gather up strength to flatten Revan (which he did utterly) that it's all he can do and therefore something like a Yoda-esque Force push is out of the equation.

Nowhere did I claim that that was all he can do. I claimed that, based on Marek's superiority over Revan, I doubt that anything less but the absolute best Vitiate can muster will threaten Marek.

You're underestimating Vitiate if you think that nothing but his A-game will even threaten Marek. Marek was challenged by a random Shadow Guard at one point. And he was definately threatened by Vader. Would you put Vader over Vitiate (srs question)?

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Not selling Revan or Tol Braga short. But Vitiate has done nothing that doesn't require preparation that compares to Marek's powers. If it comes time that blades proverbially clash, then Vitiate goes down hard.

I wasn't suggesting you were. Its just that he literally told me that story yesterday and I thought it was worth mentioning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're underestimating Vitiate if you think that nothing but his A-game will even [b]threaten Marek.[/b]

Based on his performance in Revan, I don't. In combat, Vitiate will need to do some prep-work to take down Marek, who has shown himself to be much more formidable than Revan.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Marek was challenged by a random Shadow Guard at one point. And he was definately threatened by Vader.

Marek is hardly peerless, but the fact that he was threatened by a Shadow Guard doesn't necessarily mean anything other than that the Shadow Guard was, himself, an extremely formidable enemy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Would you put Vader over Vitiate (srs question)?

Let's just say that what I'm arguing here is not necessarily what I believe to be true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't suggesting you were. Its just that he literally told me that story yesterday and I thought it was worth mentioning.

That was directed towards LeGenD, with whom I have virtually zero interest in debating.

Force Lightning Storm, Fighting Illusions, Fold Space, throwing TIE fighters with bare hands. Stick to novelizations to avoid all that colorful over hyping.

Considering that Marek's feats are enormous even in novels my opinion is that he would definitely do better against Vitiate and at least achieve that BANG effect like with Palpatine.

And he was definately threatened by Vader. Would you put Vader over Vitiate (srs question)?

Vitiate prevented Scourge from striking Revan without any gesture; similar to what Yoda did to Ventress.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
Not selling Revan or Tol Braga short. But Vitiate has done nothing that doesn't require preparation that compares to Marek's powers. If it comes time that blades proverbially clash, then Vitiate goes down hard.

Vitiate floored 3 Jedi Masters and main hero (Jedi Knight) simultaneously with his Floor Lightning Storm. This evidence suggests that he can easily floor Marek with the said ability.

It is not that Vitiate will run out of energies soon.

And their is no evidence that suggests that Marek can tolerate Vitiate' mind dominating powers.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
That was directed towards LeGenD, with whom I have virtually zero interest in debating.

If those fancy moves suggest anything; Marek is a failure. He should have floored Darth Vader easily and given Palpatine a run for the money. However, this did not happen.

Revan also have gary-stu like showings on the Star Forge. This did not help him against Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
Considering that Marek's feats are enormous even in novels my opinion is that he would definitely do better against Vitiate and at least achieve that BANG effect like with Palpatine.

"I have saved the Republic twice before. I have fought Mandalores and armies of the dark side." (Revan to Sith Strike Team)

Originally posted by Arhael
Vader had lightsaber...

His power was such, that 'armed Sith Lords' were allowed in his room to meet him without second thoughts.

Here;

Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor’s unfathomable power. (Source: Revan novel)

Originally posted by Arhael
Just couldn't ignore this one. 🤣
How exactly Ventress fully trying to resist Yoda is similar to Vitiate stopping Scourge, when fight was finished, his Force defenses down, he would never dare to confront Vitiate himself and was so scared of him that quite literally pissed his pants from a mind brush?

The Sith Lord raised his lightsaber to deliver the coup de grâce. He brought his arm down, but it suddenly stopped as if an invisible and impossibly strong hand had seized his wrist. He glanced back at the Emperor in surprise.

“Put away your blade. You have passed the test,” the Emperor said. “But Revan can still be of use to me.” (Source: Revan novel)

Do not underestimate Scourge. He is far from being a weakling.

From codex entry of Scourge in SWTOR:

As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith.

Just because Socurge stands no chance against Vitiate - doesn't indicates that he is not a powerful and lethal combatant. Point is that you have yet to grasp Vitiate' power.

Gonna state out of the actual debate. But as for Revan's mask, it was taken from a Mandalorian and used by him. Back then I believe Beskar was plentiful enough that it was used by the Mandalorians regularly, and Beskar's basically the adamantium of Star Wars. And the mask is not 4,000 years old. I think Old Republic takes place in the area of 300 years after KOTOR 1&2, so it's still pretty new.

But all in all, to do what Vitiate did to Beskar is amazing.

Originally posted by KingD19
And the mask is not 4,000 years old.

It is by Starkiller's time, isn't it?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's feats are also enormous. We do not see many fancy moves like in TFU but Revan's accomplishments are well-known.

So? Vitiate is immensely powerful in the Force. He did not felt the need to use one.

His power was such, that 'armed Sith Lords' were allowed in his room to meet him without second thoughts.

Here;

The Sith Lord raised his lightsaber to deliver the coup de grâce. He brought his arm down, but it suddenly stopped as if an invisible and impossibly strong hand had seized his wrist. He glanced back at the Emperor in surprise.

“Put away your blade. You have passed the test,” the Emperor said. “But Revan can still be of use to me.” (Source: Revan novel)

Do not underestimate Scourge. He is far from being a weakling.

From codex entry of Scourge in SWTOR:

As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith.

Just because Socurge stands no chance against Vitiate - doesn't indicates that he is not a powerful and lethal combatant.

Point is that you have yet to grasp Vitiate' power.

Either of this two have good chance one on one against Vitiate as did Jedi Knight.

Originally posted by Arhael
Accomplishments don't equal to feats. And there is no enormous feats from him apart from absorbing lightning, which Marek happened to be able to do as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which is why he totally failed with Jedi Knight.

Originally posted by Arhael
And disarming Sith before meeting him would be very stupid as it would show that he fears them and cripple his dominance over them.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is his own interpretation of Vitiate's power. It only shows how scared he was. And again he didn't try to resist, he wouldn't dare.

How about this:

Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He thrust out with the Force, the impact hitting the soldier square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step—this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves.

Now what excuse you have for this?

Originally posted by Arhael
Amount of Jedi he killed means nothing as he would never dare to fight, if he thought he could lose. If he doesn't have any advantage, he wouldn't risk his life.

This is how Nyriss percieved Scourge:

"I have studied your records from the Academy and observed your battle with the mercenaries in my courtyard," she said at last. "You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction."

Scourge nodded. Battling a living foe was intoxicating; with each attack and counter he felt a rush of heat coursing through his veins, energizing and empowering him. Yet he had felt almost none of that at the UDM plant. "When I fought the security droid, there was nothing to grab on to. It was cold. Empty."

Are you assuming that he always got lucky or was stronger? Extremely one-side assumption from you. Though I am not surprised since you are looking for excuses to belittle Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
When he met Meetra, he didn't risk fighting her.

"You're lying," she said with a disbelieving shake of her head. "You’re afraid to face me. You'll say anything to avoid a fight."

"Do I seem afraid to you?"

"No," she admitted. "You seem strangely calm."

"That is because I finally understand what Revan meant. He wants us to unite against a common foe."

"What common foe?"

"Our Emperor is planning an invasion of the Republic. Revan wants to stop him. So do I."

"Why would you want to stop an invasion of the Republic?"

"The Emperor is mad. He wants to repeat the mistakes of the Great Hyperspace War; he wants to plunge us into a conflict that will end with our extinction."

Prior to the aforementioned exchange of the dialogue, this is what Scourge thought about Meetra:

Part of him wanted to leap into the fray: battling this Jedi would be a true test of his skills. He didn’t know which of them would prove the stronger, but he was intrigued by the challenge. Yet another part of him knew she represented something far more significant than a worthy foe.

You were saying?

Originally posted by Arhael
He was scared to fight Nyriss as well as he thought her to be more powerful and in her prime.

And Sith ideology is not just about the power but also the opportunity.

Originally posted by Arhael
He dared to face another Council member only because Nyriss convinced that he was old and weak and she was right.
Yet, when he faced that council member, he wasn't even able to block Force lightning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Got his ass kicked by Nyriss within seconds before she faced Revan.

Originally posted by Arhael
Got subdued by Jedi Knight.

Originally posted by Arhael
In book he was perfect depiction of typical Sith Lord - ambitious, cunning and cowardice. In no way he was much for any powerful individual like Meetra, Revan, Malgus, Satel Shan, e.g.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yet? It's not like I researched about Vitiate yesterday.
I grasp his power enough to know that he can mind dominate unprepared/unconscious foes

Originally posted by Arhael
and give Force lightning so intensive that very few Jedi are capable to block it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Satel Shan while being Knight already effectively utilized Force offensively and demonstrated absorbing ability of extreme level as well as defeated Malgus, who was one of the strongest combatants, if not the strongest at the time. Moreover became Grand Master decade later.
While Marek defeated Vader and fought Palpatine, who at the time was enormously powerful as Vitiate and didn't need lightsaber. Didn't read book but at least in game Marek put Palpatine on the floor before that fatal BANG.

2. Vitiate also floored 3 Jedi Masters and the main Jedi hero simultaneously without much difficulty.

3. Vitiaite killed nine Dark Council members within 2 hours.

3. Vitiate has killed many many individuals and ruled for a very long time. He is extraordinarily powerful in the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael Either of this two have good chance one on one against Vitiate as did Jedi Knight.

WTH? Vitiate is a match for any powerful Jedi.

This is your assumption. The novel does not supports your view.

This sounds like an excuse to belittle Vitiate's feat.

Now what excuse you have for this?

Listen genius! This Jedi Knight is immensely powerful.

He can crush the will of even a prepared foe. Their is no known defence against his mental powers.

No one can block his Force Lightning Storm for long.

1. Vitiate subdued Revan TWICE.

2. Vitiate also floored 3 Jedi Masters and the main Jedi hero simultaneously without much difficulty.

3. Vitiaite killed nine Dark Council members within 2 hours.

3. Vitiate has killed many many individuals and ruled for a very long time. He is extraordinarily powerful in the Force.

On individual basis, none of these two stand a chance against Vitiate.

Rank is irrelevant; Skywalker was denied the rank of Jedi Master when he was supposedly more powerful and skilled than all of them bar Yoda and Mace Windu.

Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Rank is irrelevant; Skywalker was denied the rank of Jedi Master when he was supposedly more powerful and skilled than all of them bar Yoda and Mace Windu.

Implications should not be equated with evidence, since they are by their very nature somewhat vague. You shouldn't disparage LeGenD for not concluding Marek is superior to the Jedi Knight based on rank.

That said, Marek has shown himself to be substantially more powerful and ferocious than Vitiate in combat.