Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever happens after, he still legitimately single-handedly defeated Vitiate.
As I have pointed out before, SWTOR players have revealed that Vitiate was in weakened condition during this confrontation.
Here is revelation: http://revanantzforcesguild.com/aboutswtor/game-info/character-bios/268-the-sith-emperor-defeated.html?article_id=268%3Athe-sith-emperor-defeated
It is not wise to ignore the circumstances.
Originally posted by Arhael
I am not questioning Vitiate's power and of opinion myself that he is far more powerful, than Yoda or any other Jedi to ever live. My point is that you made inadequate comparison because Vitiate needed to use only friction of his power to stop non-resisting Scourge. You should have used all these other examples on first place.
Originally posted by Arhael
Ah? You came up with excuse yourself saying that she never faced him because couldn't handle. And saying "she feared" and "might fell under Vitiate's influence" is all naked assumptions and excuses, which you haven't got prove for.
I have watched some videos of the Jedi Knight story, and I recall that the Jedi Knight offered Satele to accompany him to confront Vitiate. She refused by proclaiming that she might fall under his influence. I will check on this again.
Originally posted by Arhael
Same could be said about her. She is not a young Knight anymore, her warrior adventure life is past and she now administers other Jedi and let younger generation to become mature.
Originally posted by Arhael
1. My claim doesn't say surpass "all" others. I simply said that surpass others, which means he still falls into top ranks in terms of power.
Originally posted by Arhael
2. His bad health and life support did not let him to over-exert in a way Marek did. However, he was powerful and skilled enough to mitigate Marek's overwhelming attacks.
And see my explanation above.
Originally posted by Arhael
You still fail to understand that power difference is not all deciding factor and that less powerful combatants can utilize power more wisely and effectively to prevail.
Just consider the second confrontation between Revan and Vitiate as an example. Revan was also a very powerful individual but he planned on how to deal with Vitiate. Revan was doubtful that he could handle Vitiate by himself due to the fact that his adversary was more powerful and dangerous. This is why Revan's plan involved Meetra and Scourge. However, Vitiate was not a bad decision-maker either. He prevented Revan from getting near him and get the opportunity to strike him with his lightsaber. Revan's companions certainly contributed to the complications but Vitiate was confident that he could handle the trio, if the need would arise - such was his power and decision making ability.
Get the picture now?
Originally posted by Arhael
Before I was against Marek stuff myself but later I discovered that most of those feats are confirmed in books, unlike your Vitiate.
Vitiate survived over a 1000 years as Sith Ruler. This accomplishment alone is testament of his extreme power - keeping in mind that Sith history is filled with betrayals and treachery. Vitiate has commanded many powerful individuals and faced many trials. And Vitiate is no slouch in combat. Time and again, Vitiate has shown the ability to handle multiple powerful and experienced individuals (Force-wielders in particular) simultaneously. His knowledge and command of the Force is obviously much greater then that of Marek and also his experience. These reasons are enough.
Once you will look beyond the veil of impressive cinematics and rendering technologies, you will get a realistic picture of these matters. If Vitiate's feats were to be shown in cinematics, audience would have been stunned.
Originally posted by Arhael
And it is not for you to say as you yourself rely on over-hyped portrayal of the Force in TOR like on those silly things as Fold Space, fighting illusions, Force Lightning Storm and Floor Force Lightning.
Originally posted by Arhael
Perfect self-control, perfect mind clarity, strong morals and believes are essential factors in combat, which authors always put emphasis at and which are the strongest side of Luke apart from his superior skills and immense potential, which he happened to have as well. Indeed greatest command of the Force is important factor in terms of Vitiate but what skills he had? He simply stands and throws Force attacks without trying to outwit opponent. There is nothing skillful in his fight.
Luke isn't that smart to be honest. On many difficult occasions, he made it through with help of others. Read his novels properly and you will understand my point. Yes, Luke is immensely powerful. However, he can loose too - to other immensely powerful individuals. Many people do not pay attention to circumstances. They always focus on outcomes. I do not follow this approach.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate unleashed a few instant single bolts and one continues lightning, while on Jedi knight he unleashed two continuous lightning attacks, not bolts.
Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever math you talk about, Vitiate tried his best against Jedi Knight.
Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever he planned, it could make him more powerful or make out of him another failure like Nihilus, or he would simply explode from too much of power. Also, he can't consume planets by himself, he needs around hundred Sith to perform that feat.
Originally posted by Arhael
At his current state, he isn't more powerful, than Abeloth in any way.
Originally posted by Arhael
It wasn't prophecy, he simple stated that it is the way of the Force that there will be someone who will defeat him. And champion of the light definition is not associated with immensely powerful.
Originally posted by Arhael
Neither did Jedi Knight and his feats are below either of them.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is not contradiction. Combat is essentially fighting, where enemy needs to outwit or outskill opponent. Vitiate doesn't have combat skills, he's got raw power he uses to overwhelm opponents, which has nothing clever. Should we put Palpatine against him, who's power rivals his but on top of that he is master in lightsaber combat, uses surrounding and positioning to his advantage, moves faster than I can catch and strike with Force, when least expected, then Vitiate without his significant advantage in power will go down pretty quickly.
And you are over-hyping Sidious too much. Granted that he succeeded where others failed but his story is vastly different from that of Vitiate. Yes, in direct combat - Sidious can hold his own against Vitiate. However, Vitiate can handle him. Still I believe that both can defeat each other depending upon various factors.
Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, what makes Jedi Knight better, than Vitiate? By no way Jedi Knight could be more powerful, than Marek.
It is not cannon. Sith can't be in weakened condition in the middle of Darksdie nexus. Want some examples of how nexuses can empower users? You could at least give the exact reason of how he got weakened to make it sound somewhat convenient.
Here is revelation: http://revanantzforcesguild.com/aboutswtor/game-info/character-bios/268-the-sith-emperor-defeated.html?article_id=268%3Athe-sith-emperor-defeatedIt is not wise to ignore the circumstances.
She refused by proclaiming that she might fall under his influence. I will check on this again.Even if so, does it prove that she couldn't defeat him in a way Jedi Knight did? No. And it is wise decision considering stakes and her status.
But this does not indicates that Vader is a match for likes of Vitiate and Sidious or even close to them. While Marek defeated Vader, he failed to defeat Sidious. And Sidious did not even had to use his lightsaber to stop Marek. Such is the power gap between Vader and Sidious. Now you get the picture?Marek put Sidious on the floor, then Sidious unleashed Force lightning and Marek began absorbing like Yoda. For the while they were equal with exception that Marek did not survive the bang. He did match Palpatine, so can match Vitiate.
Bad health? I doubt this.This is one of the main reasons he could not achieve full potential and was limited in powers.And see my explanation above.
Power difference is important factor.
And decision making is as well. Both of these factors play a vital role in the outcome of duels. And it is not necessary that less powerful individuals prove to be better decision makers.YOU CALL IT DECISION MAKING????? WTF? All he did was throwing lightning bolts in that fight. Keeping Revan on distance is the only way to survive, so what exactly he had to decide? He could finish Revan with the same Force lightning. He picked up lightsaber just out of boredom and stupidity as Revan was finished anyway. Such was his power but it has nothing to do with decision making.Just consider the second confrontation between Revan and Vitiate as an example. Revan was also a very powerful individual but he planned on how to deal with Vitiate. Revan was doubtful that he could handle Vitiate by himself due to the fact that his adversary was more powerful and dangerous. This is why Revan's plan involved Meetra and Scourge. However, Vitiate was not a bad decision-maker either. He prevented Revan from getting near him and get the opportunity to strike him with his lightsaber. Revan's companions certainly contributed to the complications but Vitiate was confident that he could handle the trio, if the need would arise - such was his power and decision making ability.
Get the picture now?
I have read Marek's novels. Many of his feats have been confirmed but his feats do not prove that he is better then Vitiate. I judge Marek on the basis of his performance against other powerful individuals. And I base my opinion accordingly. Moving Starships do not count in versus battles.
If Vitiate's feats were to be shown in cinematics, audience would have been stunned.[/quote]Those feats prove extend of his power. And he performed well against Vader and Emperor, which qualifies as prove that he can put up good fight against Vitiate.
See the explanation of second confrontation between Revan and Vitiate above. Point is that it is very difficult to make realistic assessment of qualities of characters on the basis of what happens during gameplay. The concept of dramatic conflict is absent in gameplay. This is where novels come in to the picture. And Vitiate was fantastic in novel. He was not just extraordinarily powerful but also a smart decision-maker.Qualities like confidence, mind clarity, dedication to lightside and personality play major factor in any fight.
Luke isn't that smart to be honest. On many difficult occasions, he made it through with help of others. Read his novels properly and you will understand my point. Yes, Luke is immensely powerful. However, he can loose too - to other immensely powerful individuals. Many people do not pay attention to circumstances. They always focus on outcomes. I do not follow this approach.WHAT? 0_o Isn't smart? The wisest Jedi and Grand master of New Order isn't smart? What help did he get against Vader? What help did he get in actual lightsaber combat against Palpatine? What help did he get against Slayers and Shimra? What help did he get against Lomi Plo together with UnuThul? What help did he get against Jacen? What help did he get against Baron Do Master? What help did he get, when Sith that were supposed to help him kill Abeloth, turned against him? What help did he get, when killing her second body? What help did he get, when fighting all those Sith that came in on him in packages? You are saying nonsense, no way one of the main iconic figures would be portrayed less smart or less powerful, than some game based Jedi characters. And blaming circumstances for his victories is equally stupid because there was way more circumstances playing against him.
Lightning bolts are continuous unless shut down. People often confuse bolts with branch-offs. Vitiate unleashed 12 continuous bolts on Revan (during second confrontation with him) and only 2 against Jedi Knight (during second confrontation with him). Their is also noticeable difference between intensity and span of Force Lightning unleashed by Vitiate against the Jedi Strike Team (in Jedi Knight Act 2) and Jedi Knight (in Jedi Knight Act 3). Possible reason for this have been mentioned in the start.I am not even going to continue this silly debate about nature of Force lightning, in book there is only one Force lightning. Force lightning in both cases in game was purple color, if we talk about intensity. And spamming lightning all over the place, when there is only one foe wouldn't make sense.Hint: weakened condition.
I won't be me surprised, if this Jedi Knight turns out to be second most powerful Jedi after Luke in the whole Star Wars mythos. [/B]It's funny how you say that Jedi Knight is "after Luke", considering that he is not that smart and not that impressive either.
You underestimate Vitiate's intelligence too much. Power alone does not makes you last over a 1000 years as a ruler. The examples of Revan, Traya, Nihilus and Sion make this very clear.Ahah. Putting Palpatine (canonically the most powerful Sith ever) on level with Vitiate in terms of power is over-hyping too much? You make me laugh. While I give respect to Vitiate to say that his power is on level with Palpatine many others wouldn't, considering that he demonstrated everything Vitiate did and beyond.And you are over-hyping Sidious too much. Granted that he succeeded where others failed but his story is vastly different from that of Vitiate. Yes, in direct combat - Sidious can hold his own against Vitiate. However, Vitiate can handle him. Still I believe that both can defeat each other depending upon various factors.
This Jedi Knight have defeated many powerful opponents. And his victory over Vitiate puts him above most Jedi in power scale. Even if Vitiate was weakened during second encounter with Jedi Knight, he still packed considerable power.He is certainly in top league. But it doesn't put him above other characters top league characters like Satel Shan, Marek, Luke, Yoda, e.g.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is not cannon. Sith can't be in weakened condition in the middle of Darksdie nexus. Want some examples of how nexuses can empower users? You could at least give the exact reason of how he got weakened to make it sound somewhat convenient.
Originally posted by Arhael
Even if so, does it prove that she couldn't defeat him in a way Jedi Knight did? No. And it is wise decision considering stakes and her status.
Originally posted by Arhael
Marek put Sidious on the floor, then Sidious unleashed Force lightning and Marek began absorbing like Yoda. For the while they were equal with exception that Marek did not survive the bang. He did match Palpatine, so can match Vitiate.
Marek send Sidious packing with a Force Push initially. Sidious responded with Force Lightning afterwards. I understand that Marek sacrificed himself to save his friends. However, do you think that he could defeat Sidious (OT) in a fair duel?
Originally posted by Arhael
This is one of the main reasons he could not achieve full potential and was limited in powers.
Therefore, your claim is moot.
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed it is. But apart from power difference there are other factors. Jedi self control and mind clarity is as important as power and it is main advantage of any Jedi.
In this hypothetical contest, both Satele and Vitiate are more mature and experienced then Marek.
Originally posted by Arhael
In Marek's case his unstoppable rage gives him enormous power boosts, hence, even having less power than Vitiate, he still can produce Force attacks that will surpass even Vitiate's.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, arguably he had chance to finish Plapatine, if not that conversation about morals and turning to darkside, which gave Palpatine time to muster power. The fight between them in no way was one sided, so you can't simply discard this feat, when considering fight with Vitiate.
Originally posted by Arhael
YOU CALL IT DECISION MAKING????? WTF? All he did was throwing lightning bolts in that fight. Keeping Revan on distance is the only way to survive, so what exactly he had to decide? He could finish Revan with the same Force lightning. He picked up lightsaber just out of boredom and stupidity as Revan was finished anyway. Such was his power but it has nothing to do with decision making.
Originally posted by Arhael
Those feats prove extend of his power. And he performed well against Vader and Emperor, which qualifies as prove that he can put up good fight against Vitiate.
Originally posted by Arhael
Qualities like confidence, mind clarity, dedication to lightside and personality play major factor in any fight.
Vitiate is very confident, patient, mature, and experienced individual for your kind information.
Originally posted by Arhael
WHAT? 0_o Isn't smart? The wisest Jedi and Grand master of New Order isn't smart? What help did he get against Vader? What help did he get in actual lightsaber combat against Palpatine? What help did he get against Slayers and Shimra? What help did he get against Lomi Plo together with UnuThul? What help did he get against Jacen? What help did he get against Baron Do Master? What help did he get, when Sith that were supposed to help him kill Abeloth, turned against him? What help did he get, when killing her second body? What help did he get, when fighting all those Sith that came in on him in packages? You are saying nonsense, no way one of the main iconic figures would be portrayed less smart or less powerful, than some game based Jedi characters. And blaming circumstances for his victories is equally stupid because there was way more circumstances playing against him.
For the duels you pointed out;
Against Vader: Father wanted Luke to join him to defeat Sidious. Vader wanted Luke to give in to his anger and he partially succeeded in this objective. However, Luke realized his mistake but got his @ss handed to him by Sidious. If Vader would not have intervened, Luke would have been dead.
Against Sidious: Luke demonstrated superior lightsaber skills for sure in the final confrontation with Sidious. However, he defeated Sidious with help from Leia. If she had not helped Luke, he would have been dead.
Against Shimra: success
Against UnuThul: success (UnuThul's attempts to influence Luke failed due to assistance from his allies and Luke's past history with him)
Against Jacen: success (but got badly wounded)
Against Abeloth: Luke got help on various occasions from different characters. Abeloth proved to be stupid for not killing Luke when she had the opportunity to do so.
But these aren't his only duels. Luke would have been killed by Exar Kun too, had his pupils not helped him. Lumiya have defeated Luke once too due to her special weapon. This is very important example of how element of surprise can change the outcome of the battle.
Originally posted by Arhael
I am not even going to continue this silly debate about nature of Force lightning, in book there is only one Force lightning. Force lightning in both cases in game was purple color, if we talk about intensity.
Originally posted by Arhael
And spamming lightning all over the place, when there is only one foe wouldn't make sense.
Originally posted by Arhael
It's funny how you say that Jedi Knight is "after Luke", considering that he is not that smart and not that impressive either.
Originally posted by Arhael
Ahah. Putting Palpatine (canonically the most powerful Sith ever) on level with Vitiate in terms of power is over-hyping too much? You make me laugh. While I give respect to Vitiate to say that his power is on level with Palpatine many others wouldn't, considering that he demonstrated everything Vitiate did and beyond.
Hint: Force storm.
Vitiate has his own unique accomplishments. He also happens to be a very effective combatant. He has demonstrated greatest proficiency in the arts of Immortality, Force Lightning, and Mind Tricks. While Sidious is theoretically stated to know all kinds of Force powers, Vitiate have demonstrated greater variety of offensive Force applications in his duels in contrast.
Originally posted by Arhael
He is certainly in top league. But it doesn't put him above other characters top league characters like Satel Shan, Marek, Luke, Yoda, e.g.
Originally posted by Arhael
And ones again, weakened Vitiate in the middle of Darkside nexus is nonsense you desperately try to grasp to.
You clearly have no clue of what you are talking about. Vitiate is the reason behind the Darkside Nexus in Dromund Kaas. And I fully understand the concept of empowerment. I have not played the game so I cannot give you proper explanation of why Vitiate was in weakened condition during his second confrontation with the Jedi Knight (JK). However, SWTOR players have reported this and the claim deserves attention. As far as I know, Vitiate was engaged in a mega-ritual and it was disrupted by JK.
How would she be able to defeat him, if Vitiate would crush her will early on?His greater power doesn't make mind dominate ability absolute as proven by Revan and Jedi Knight. And you don't need to be as powerful to resist mind domination and other Force attacks as proven by countless canonical examples.
Sidious wanted Marek to replace Vader as his apprentice. So it is debatable, if Sidious really wanted to kill him.Not wanting to kill doesn't imply that he was holding back as Force attacks are not as lethal as lightsaber. Yes, I do think that Marek has all the chances to defeat lightsaber less Palpatine "in fair fight". That confrontation by no means was fair as Marek spent a lot of effort on Vader before him. However, in final straggle Marek did legitimately for a brief time equalized Palpatine. And it was more powerful version of him, than RotS.Marek send Sidious packing with a Force Push initially. Sidious responded with Force Lightning afterwards. I understand that Marek sacrificed himself to save his friends. However, do you think that he could defeat Sidious (OT) in a fair duel?
I know this. But the point is about Vader being in bad shape as you claimed earlier. Was Vader wounded before confrontation with Marek? No.My point is that despite all his limitations he still had immense power in him, which was enough to counter Marek, which is valid by all accounts. You need to understand the flaw in your logic. With same success I could argue that because Jedi Knight gave so much hard time Vitiate and defeated him, Yoda would stomp him no sweat but I am not that naive as things don't work like that.Therefore, your claim is moot.
I know that Jedi are calm and composed. In contrast, Sith use emotions to fuel their power. However, valid argument can be recklessness. Both Jedi and Sith have demonstrated the tendency of being reckless at young age specially. However, characters can change with passage of time as they mature and gain experience.This qualities I applied specifically to support Satel in confronting Vitiate. Marek is all about rage.In this hypothetical contest, both Satele and Vitiate are more mature and experienced then Marek.
Logical fallacy. Marek has been trained to fuel his power with emotions. Same is true for Vitiate. However, Vitiate is not only more mature and experienced but also have greater command of the Force in comparison. Vitiate will crush the wills of both Satele and Marek and turn them in to his puppets. You are failing to understand this simple conclusion and have turned this debate in to a d**k measuring contest. Seriously, you have to learn a lot about strengths and weaknesses of these characters. Satele was reluctant to confront Vitiate due to this reason alone.Whatever was Vitiate's experience and command of the Force, emotions can't be created artificially. That's where personality factor comes into place as some people can experience far stronger rage, than others. Marek's rage was bordering with madness.
Point is that will Vitiate give Marek the opportunity to strike him in the first place?No one gives such opportunities, opponents create such opportunities as did Jedi Knight.
Please refrain from posting immature garbage like this.This statement, no matter how sarcastic it is, has valid points in it. If you have nothing to say, then just keep quiet, rather then speak about immaturity.
No, this doesn't. You have to focus at strengths and weaknesses of a character in question. Satele realized that she could fall to Vitiate's influence. Marek is no exception.Satelle's reluctance is demonstration of her wisdom, which is not weakness. As Jedi with immense power and great personality she has got strengths that can effectively counter strengths of Vitiate.
If the hypothetical contest reaches this level. Big IF.A a Sith he will always lack certain things the Jedi gain strength from, that is why Sith keep losing despite their superior Force powers.Vitiate is very confident, patient, mature, and experienced individual for your kind information.
He succeeded in many challenges due to his gary-stu abilities alone.I glad you admit it. Because in older post you state that there is nothing impressive about him, "if his abilities and skills are tested alone".
Against Vader:
Luke's decision was to try turning Vader back to the lightside, which he ultimately did. Smart decision to turn them against each other, is it not?
Against Sidious: Sorry, my mistake for focusing specifically on lightsabers. Though it wasn't superior skill but superior trust in the Force and uniqueness of being Jedi that all Sith lack. Focusing on smart decisions he decided to become his apprentice. Which is fullish from Jedi perspective, however, doing that he infiltrated Empire, acquired codes to destroy Devastators and destroy all clone bodies but one, which made huge difference resulting in winning the war and defeating Palpatine ones and for all. In final confrontation with help of Lea he understood his mistakes and ultimately cast it off, which is a wise decision from Jedi perspective and part of his learning process.
Against Abeloth: Abeloth, also, was getting help from Sith on various occasions. But my point is not about victories and circumstances but smart decisions and capabilities that brought him in the story arc to where he is now.
But these aren't his only duels. Luke would have been killed by Exar Kun too, had his pupils not helped him. Lumiya have defeated Luke once too due to her special weapon. This is very important example of how element of surprise can change the outcome of the battle.Let's focus on smartness and capabilities, rather than elements of surprise and circumstances. As I said, victories don't matter. I simply don't like you saying him not being particularly smart and impressive, when it is completely untrue considering his achievements from over 70 books.
It makes sense, if one wishes to negate the effectiveness of lightsaber based defence.In Revan book all forks were aimed at him. "A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor towards him". Exactly same thing we see in the game as dozen bolts are aimed at Knight and he absorbs them into lightsaber.
In terms of power. In terms of intelligence, do not know.Luke was at peak of intelligence as Jedi. He was not politician though. But without wise decisions of what to do in one or another situation and how to participate in wars in general he would never be where he is.
I advice you to refrain from pointing out canonical standings of characters with respect to power. Very recently, Plagueis have been declared as the most powerful Sith lord (He was the most powerful Sith lord who ever lived). In addition, some authors consider Yoda as the most powerful Jedi. So?And I choose to not follow your advice as DE and plenty of other less canonical feats put Sidious at least on level with Vitiate in terms of power save for combat part. He like Vitiate demonstrated greatest Force Lightning and Mind Tricks. Vitiate's immortality is the only thing that stands out.Vitiate has his own unique accomplishments. He also happens to be a very effective combatant. He has demonstrated greatest proficiency in the arts of Immortality, Force Lightning, and Mind Tricks. While Sidious is theoretically stated to know all kinds of Force powers, Vitiate have demonstrated greater variety of offensive Force applications in his duels in contrast.
Debatable.Exactly. We both can't prove otherwise and have valid evidence to support our views. I agree that Vitiate is superior to them in command of the Force. But other top league characters still have chance winning due to lots of other factors apart from power. If power was all deciding factor, then Yoda would not engage Dooku in combat but simply subdue him with the Force. Same for Palpatine fighting Luke and Windu, he was black hole in the Force, yet, decided to engage in combat. And considering that his power is beyond Luke's and Lea's even combined, they still managed to turn Force storm against him. Same for Abeloth. She was multiple times more powerful than him, yet, she did not simply mind dominate him or subdue with TK but tried other means, while for other characters simpler solutions worked just fine And against Jedi Knight, Vitiate had to try other means to defeat Jedi Knight, rather than simply mind dominate him or subdue with TK.
You are in no position to challenge this claim unless you have played and completed all storylines of SWTOR.I have every reason and position to challenge this claim as there is no evidence and all existing evidence proves otherwise.
Originally posted by Arhael
Your "clearly have no clue" does not qualify. Yes, he is the reason for the nexus as was Palpatine for Byss and he stated himself about Luke's futility of trying to defeat him down there. The darkside presence is strongest on Dromund Kass, this is where Vitiate is at his peak. If you cannot give proper explanation, then stop arguing about something you have no prove yourself and as you "clearly have no clue of what you are talking about".
Originally posted by Arhael
As far as I know FROM THE GAME is that, when Jedi Knight came in, he was resting on his throne. He had no need to worry about Jedi Knight as he was protected by Scourge and countless other defenses. HOWEVER, there is possibility that his performance was affected due to blood drained from his ass as he was unceremoniously interrupted from contemplating on his throne.
Also, your comment reveals that how much disconnected you are from the story of JK in particular. Scourge betrayed Vitiate and set the stage for his (temporary) defeat. And keep in mind that JK actually defeated an individual possessed by Vitiate, and not the Sith Emperor in his original body. The story of SWTOR is still in progression. It is premature to jump to conclusion at this moment.
Originally posted by Arhael
His greater power doesn't make mind dominate ability absolute as proven by Revan and Jedi Knight. And you don't need to be as powerful to resist mind domination and other Force attacks as proven by countless canonical examples.
Originally posted by Arhael
Not wanting to kill doesn't imply that he was holding back as Force attacks are not as lethal as lightsaber. Yes, I do think that Marek has all the chances to defeat lightsaber less Palpatine "in fair fight". That confrontation by no means was fair as Marek spent a lot of effort on Vader before him. However, in final straggle Marek did legitimately for a brief time equalized Palpatine. And it was more powerful version of him, than RotS.
Originally posted by Arhael
My point is that despite all his limitations he still had immense power in him, which was enough to counter Marek, which is valid by all accounts. You need to understand the flaw in your logic. With same success I could argue that because Jedi Knight gave so much hard time Vitiate and defeated him, Yoda would stomp him no sweat but I am not that naive as things don't work like that.
Even if we consider raw power, Vitiate had no trouble in collapsing that enormous building with the Force in Dromund Kaas where he faced the JK for the second time and he pulled this feat after getting struck down. Just ponder over this feat for a moment without bias.
Originally posted by Arhael
This qualities I applied specifically to support Satel in confronting Vitiate. Marek is all about rage.
Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever was Vitiate's experience and command of the Force, emotions can't be created artificially. That's where personality factor comes into place as some people can experience far stronger rage, than others. Marek's rage was bordering with madness.
Originally posted by Arhael
No one gives such opportunities, opponents create such opportunities as did Jedi Knight.
Confidence is another crucial factor. Remember that Vitiate was willing to fight the trio of Revan, Meetra, and Scourge simultaneously and was still confident in his abilities.
Originally posted by Arhael
This statement, no matter how sarcastic it is, has valid points in it. If you have nothing to say, then just keep quiet, rather then speak about immaturity.
Originally posted by Arhael
Satelle's reluctance is demonstration of her wisdom, which is not weakness. As Jedi with immense power and great personality she has got strengths that can effectively counter strengths of Vitiate.
Originally posted by Arhael
A a Sith he will always lack certain things the Jedi gain strength from, that is why Sith keep losing despite their superior Force powers.
Originally posted by Arhael
I glad you admit it. Because in older post you state that there is nothing impressive about him, "if his abilities and skills are tested alone".
Originally posted by Arhael
Against Vader:
Luke's decision was to try turning Vader back to the lightside, which he ultimately did. Smart decision to turn them against each other, is it not?
Originally posted by Arhael
Against Sidious: Sorry, my mistake for focusing specifically on lightsabers. Though it wasn't superior skill but superior trust in the Force and uniqueness of being Jedi that all Sith lack. Focusing on smart decisions he decided to become his apprentice. Which is fullish from Jedi perspective, however, doing that he infiltrated Empire, acquired codes to destroy Devastators and destroy all clone bodies but one, which made huge difference resulting in winning the war and defeating Palpatine ones and for all. In final confrontation with help of Lea he understood his mistakes and ultimately cast it off, which is a wise decision from Jedi perspective and part of his learning process.
Originally posted by Arhael
Against Abeloth: Abeloth, also, was getting help from Sith on various occasions. But my point is not about victories and circumstances but smart decisions and capabilities that brought him in the story arc to where he is now.
OR
We need to focus on how the enemies of Luke attempted to deal with him. Abeloth proved to be one of the worst. She underestimated Luke, wasted opportunities, and overstretched herself in the end.
Thus far, Exar Kun proved to be the wisest villain IMO because he took care of Luke quickly and would have eliminated him - had he not been stopped by Luke's students on time. Kun, being in spirit form, was out of luck.
Originally posted by Arhael
Let's focus on smartness and capabilities, rather than elements of surprise and circumstances. As I said, victories don't matter. I simply don't like you saying him not being particularly smart and impressive, when it is completely untrue considering his achievements from over 70 books.
Originally posted by Arhael
In Revan book all forks were aimed at him. "A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor towards him". Exactly same thing we see in the game as dozen bolts are aimed at Knight and he absorbs them into lightsaber.
This is 3 bolts: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071230062609/starwars/images/7/74/Sidious_Lightning.jpg
This is 7 bolts: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/63458/1719309-1640325_force_lightning_1_super_super.jpg
You are confusing small branch-offs with bolts.
Originally posted by Arhael
Luke was at peak of intelligence as Jedi. He was not politician though. But without wise decisions of what to do in one or another situation and how to participate in wars in general he would never be where he is.
Originally posted by Arhael
And I choose to not follow your advice as DE and plenty of other less canonical feats put Sidious at least on level with Vitiate in terms of power save for combat part. He like Vitiate demonstrated greatest Force Lightning and Mind Tricks. Vitiate's immortality is the only thing that stands out.
Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate DID NOT demonstrate greatest variety of offensive Force applications in his duels. In book it went as far as crushing will, Force lightning and a Force push in its raw uncreative form. [/B]
- Force Lightning
- Unknown power (against T3-M4)
- Telekinetic applications
- Mind Dominating Powers
- Force Drain (against Lord Dramath)
- Force illusions
- Force blasts
Originally posted by Arhael
Exactly. We both can't prove otherwise and have valid evidence to support our views. I agree that Vitiate is superior to them in command of the Force. But other top league characters still have chance winning due to lots of other factors apart from power. If power was all deciding factor, then Yoda would not engage Dooku in combat but simply subdue him with the Force. Same for Palpatine fighting Luke and Windu, he was black hole in the Force, yet, decided to engage in combat. And considering that his power is beyond Luke's and Lea's even combined, they still managed to turn Force storm against him. Same for Abeloth. She was multiple times more powerful than him, yet, she did not simply mind dominate him or subdue with TK but tried other means, while for other characters simpler solutions worked just fine And against Jedi Knight, Vitiate had to try other means to defeat Jedi Knight, rather than simply mind dominate him or subdue with TK.
Originally posted by Arhael
I have every reason and position to challenge this claim as there is no evidence and all existing evidence proves otherwise.
I simply brought this claim to limelight here to prevent you from jumping to quick conclusions, as you seem to do so again and again.
My point is that I have not played this game myself. Therefore, I do not know the whole story. What I know is that Vitiate was involved in some kind of mega-ritual and was disturbed in the process by the JK.Provide canon script that he was involved in a "mega-ritual", it is not mentioned anywhere. That link you provided doesn't say anything about ritual, moreover, he states that Vitiate is defeated ones and for all...Visuals do not reveal everything. Background events and their impact must not be ignored. This is why it is important to have strong grip of story of SWTOR.
Also, your comment reveals that how much disconnected you are from the story of JK in particular. Scourge betrayed Vitiate and set the stage for his (temporary) defeat. And keep in mind that JK actually defeated an individual possessed by Vitiate, and not the Sith Emperor in his original body. The story of SWTOR is still in progression. It is premature to jump to conclusion at this moment.Did I say story is over? Voice or not voice, he demonstrated powers natural only to him. Also, power transfers with essence, proved by Abeloth, you agreed on that as well in earlier post. The fact that he handled Jedi strike team proves that he had his full power in other bodies as well.
What I have observed thus far is that (any) individual who meets Vitiate for the first time, easily falls to his mental powers, at minimum. The 'element of surprise' really works for Vitiate. I am not saying that Vitiate's mental powers are absolute but they certainly help him during moments of uncertainty.Indeed, but when he faces another immensely powerful foe in his prime, it doesn't happen. And what element of surprise you talk about? Marek faced Sidious, Vitiate would be nothing new. Satel, also, knows how powerful Vitiate is, so she would be extra careful and her mental barriers would be fully up.
No I don't need to re-evaluate my logic. It is proven that weaker Force user can defend against Force attacks of stronger one, that's why Vader held on. When did Marek realize that he could not defeat Sidious? He engaged him and put him on his ass. And what limitations Marek had?
You need to re-evaluate your own logic actually. Vader never demonstrated powers on the level of Marek and yet he was no pushover in combat for him. And Marek realized that he could not defeat Sidious by himself. My point is that Marek had limitations. TFU reveals that it is easy to handle things not-touched by the Force or weak in the Force. However, dealing with powerful Force-wielders is the real thing. And this is where Vitiate really shines.
Even if we consider raw power, Vitiate had no trouble in collapsing that enormous building with the Force in Dromund Kaas where he faced the JK for the second time and he pulled this feat after getting struck down. Just ponder over this feat for a moment without bias.I have no bias. And you contradict yourself. You try to prove that he was greatly weakened and that it wasn't his original body and now try to show greatness of his power by this feat. So he wasn't weakened after all. So much power left that entire building collapsed.
And both of them are vulnerable to mental powers of Vitiate, which you fail to realize. Marek even more so due to his brush with the dark side.My realization is that they are both powerful enough to resist mind domination, they are far stronger, than other Jedi he encountered. And remember, Vitiate didn't use Mind domination against strike team. He overpowered them with Force lightning and only after with mental guard down he mind dominated them.
And you think that Vitiate does not gets mad? When he got mad, he almost killed Revan in a few seconds. Thanks to T3-M4, Revan lived.Yes, yes and when he got mad with JK, he stumbled against lightsaber. 😄
Quoting Vitiate: "This remains to be seen.""Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength of his new foe...".Confidence is another crucial factor. Remember that Vitiate was willing to fight the trio of Revan, Meetra, and Scourge simultaneously and was still confident in his abilities.
It is garbage and shows your bias. Do you realize that Vitiate is not even my favourite character? My arguments are free from bias. Yours are not.No, it is not biased. Decision to pick up lightsaber and walk toward Revan was indeed stupid, which nearly cost him life.
Another excuse from you. Satele surely was wise enough to realize that she was vulnerable to Vitiate's mental influence. However, (Vitiate-haters) like you fail to acknowledge the established facts.Countered by your own excuse about mental influence. First, I am not Vitiate hater. Second, I accept established fact that he can mind dominate almost anyone but I, also, accept the established fact that he cannot mind dominate other immensely powerful users in combat, which Satele Shan and Galen Marek are.
Your logic is flawed. Many times, Sith have fallen due to betrayals, traps, and unfair circumstances.And Vitiate got defeated at his own place in the middle of his darkside nexus to a Jedi nowhere near as powerful as him. Yes, my logic is so very flawed...
I attempt to judge things in a fair manner. For Luke, intelligence is not so important. He is so powerful that he gets away with almost everything.You call it fair manner? Saying that Luke is not smart decision maker was biased on first place. Saying that Vitiate can mind dominate Galen Marek, who put Sidious on his ass is biased. Saying that Vitiate is smart decision maker because he kept Revan on distance is absurd, when with no lightsaber it is the only option, which even an idiot would figure out is biased While calling me biased for pointing out at his stupid decision to pick up lightsaber during that fight.
Somehow I doubt this. Luke is alive because he is a cash-cow for Star Wars. Authors always find a way to get him out of his troubles. This is one of the reasons that I dislike Luke. He is above fair judgement.It is very biased. You try to lowball his achievements by simply blaming authors. I can say exactly the same thing, Vitiate is alive because he is a cash-flow and I blame authors for creating such a Gary Stu Sith.
We need to focus on how the enemies of Luke attempted to deal with him. Abeloth proved to be one of the worst. She underestimated Luke, wasted opportunities, and overstretched herself in the end.She is one of the worse only in your opinion, she did go all-out on Luke. Yes, she did underestimate Luke and wasted "an opportunity". But so did Vitiate, he underestimated Jedi Knight and wasted opportunity to kill him and as the result later got his ass kicked.
I have not stated that Luke is dumb or not smart. But intelligence is not vital for him to succeed in his plans. His power is.Wrong and biased. Intelligence always matters more, than anything.
Are you blind? Where did you see 12 bolts?Seriously? You really trying to compare Force portrayed by different sources? I am sorry but that's silly. Animation of Sidious' lightning in TFU, also, didn't have 12 bolts, does it mean his lightning was weaker then? Not at all.You are confusing small branch-offs with bolts.
Satele and Marek - together - possibly possess the power to bring down Vitiate. However, I have clarified that Vitiate can defeat them too and simultaneously.
You are not in the position to do so because I did not made this claim in the first place. This claim is from players of SWTOR.I am in position because some "players" claims mean nothing, it is not canon and not evidenced anywhere. I never jump to quick conclusions.I simply brought this claim to limelight here to prevent you from jumping to quick conclusions, as you seem to do so again and again.
What I know is that Vitiate was involved in some kind of mega-ritual and was disturbed in the process by the JK.The thing is that you don't know. You assume and believe that there was some ritual but you don't know, if it is true and no one can prove that. And I am sure that you are misinformed because such important information would certainly be mentioned at least somewhere, most likely in wookieepedia. And, while you try to show how unbiased you are, trying to give excuses like he used Force lightning instead of Force Storm and relying on most certainly false information to prove that he was much weaker to discard his legitimate loss is VERY biased.
Originally posted by Arhael
Provide canon script that he was involved in a "mega-ritual", it is not mentioned anywhere. That link you provided doesn't say anything about ritual, moreover, he states that Vitiate is defeated ones and for all...
I can verify this. Vitiates plan in TOR is to conduct a ritual that would annihilate all life in the galaxy and absorb the Force itself, becoming a God. Naturally the Knight stops him and he is weakened. Here's proof.
'You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.'
However, from what I've heard you have a choice in the end to choose to go straight to him and not allow him to recover or to rescue someone (probably your love interest). He's only weakened in the Darkside version, in the Light I believe that either he or Scourge mocks you for allowing him time to recover.
Originally posted by NephthysForce drain entire galaxy with a single ritual? Seriously? Is it the best idea authors came up with? Spiritual crisis? The last remaining positive thoughts about TOR just vanished instantly and without any trace.
I can verify this. Vitiates plan in TOR is to conduct a ritual that would annihilate all life in the galaxy and absorb the Force itself, becoming a God. Naturally the Knight stops him and he is weakened.
Give me back my naive ignorance!!! 😠
in the Light I believe that either he or Scourge mocks you for allowing him time to recover.That kiss was worth it! 👆
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well it makes sense that it would be possible based on what was established about the Force in Kotor II.
Originally posted by Arhael
Nihilus was draining planet by planet. I am fine with it. If Vitiate by this ritual was gonna drain just Dromund Kaas, then fine. But entire galaxy is way too retarded assumption.
No, I meant with what Kreia talked about with it being possible for tiny events to ripple outwards through the Force. Her plan in that game was also to kill the Force, and if what she said was true then imo, she could have succeeded. If it is possible to do that then taking out the entire Force isn't outside the realms of possibility.
Originally posted by Arhael
Provide canon script that he was involved in a "mega-ritual", it is not mentioned anywhere. That link you provided doesn't say anything about ritual, moreover, he states that Vitiate is defeated ones and for all...
I have taught him well as my apprentice. He can now proceed to have his own apprentice.
Time for you to become my next apprentice.
Originally posted by Arhael
Did I say story is over? Voice or not voice, he demonstrated powers natural only to him. Also, power transfers with essence, proved by Abeloth, you agreed on that as well in earlier post. The fact that he handled Jedi strike team proves that he had his full power in other bodies as well.
Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, but when he faces another immensely powerful foe in his prime, it doesn't happen.
Originally posted by Arhael
And what element of surprise you talk about? Marek faced Sidious, Vitiate would be nothing new.
Originally posted by Arhael
Satel, also, knows how powerful Vitiate is, so she would be extra careful and her mental barriers would be fully up.
Originally posted by Arhael
No I don't need to re-evaluate my logic. It is proven that weaker Force user can defend against Force attacks of stronger one, that's why Vader held on.
Originally posted by Arhael
When did Marek realize that he could not defeat Sidious? He engaged him and put him on his ass. And what limitations Marek had?
Originally posted by Arhael
I have no bias. And you contradict yourself. You try to prove that he was greatly weakened and that it wasn't his original body and now try to show greatness of his power by this feat. So he wasn't weakened after all. So much power left that entire building collapsed.
Originally posted by Arhael
My realization is that they are both powerful enough to resist mind domination, they are far stronger, than other Jedi he encountered.
Originally posted by Arhael
And remember, Vitiate didn't use Mind domination against strike team. He overpowered them with Force lightning and only after with mental guard down he mind dominated them.
Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Marek did not have brush with darkside, he had mastery over it as he was grown up and trained by Vader from childhood. So example with Revan and Malak struggling to control their conflicting emotions after war doesn't count.
Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, yes and when he got mad with JK, he stumbled against lightsaber. 😄
Originally posted by Arhael
"Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength of his new foe...".
Originally posted by Arhael
No, it is not biased. Decision to pick up lightsaber and walk toward Revan was indeed stupid, which nearly cost him life.
Originally posted by Arhael
Countered by your own excuse about mental influence. First, I am not Vitiate hater. Second, I accept established fact that he can mind dominate almost anyone but I, also, accept the established fact that he cannot mind dominate other immensely powerful users in combat, which Satele Shan and Galen Marek are.
Originally posted by Arhael
And Vitiate got defeated at his own place in the middle of his darkside nexus to a Jedi nowhere near as powerful as him. Yes, my logic is so very flawed...
Originally posted by Arhael
You call it fair manner? Saying that Luke is not smart decision maker was biased on first place.
Originally posted by Arhael
Saying that Vitiate can mind dominate Galen Marek, who put Sidious on his ass is biased.
Originally posted by Arhael
Saying that Vitiate is smart decision maker because he kept Revan on distance is absurd, when with no lightsaber it is the only option, which even an idiot would figure out is biased While calling me biased for pointing out at his stupid decision to pick up lightsaber during that fight.
Originally posted by Arhael
The whole topic about smart decision making is a waste irrelevant to the topic, so lets drop it entirely.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is very biased. You try to lowball his achievements by simply blaming authors. I can say exactly the same thing, Vitiate is alive because he is a cash-flow and I blame authors for creating such a Gary Stu Sith.
Originally posted by Arhael
She is one of the worse only in your opinion, she did go all-out on Luke. Yes, she did underestimate Luke and wasted "an opportunity". But so did Vitiate, he underestimated Jedi Knight and wasted opportunity to kill him and as the result later got his ass kicked.
Vitiate was not an idiot. He made decisions that he thought would serve his agenda the best. But then, Sith history is filled with betrayals and Scourge reminds us of this.
In the first fight, Vitiate defeated the Jedi Knight, turned him in to his pawn and used him. However, the Jedi Knight broke free from Vitiate's mental grip with help from another Jedi Master.
In the second fight, the Jedi Knight fought Vitiate on his own terms. Thanks to Scourge for helping him (Jedi Knight) out and making this possible.
Now we will have to wait and see that how this story progresses further.
Abeloth made very bad decisions.
Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong and biased. Intelligence always matters more, than anything.
Originally posted by Arhael
Seriously? You really trying to compare Force portrayed by different sources? I am sorry but that's silly. Animation of Sidious' lightning in TFU, also, didn't have 12 bolts, does it mean his lightning was weaker then? Not at all.
Originally posted by Arhael
You did not clarify that he can defeat them too and simultaneously.
Marek alone has all the chances to defeat Vitiate as he defeated even Sidious. Satele Shan as Revan's descendant is at least on level with JK, she has a chance to accomplish the same feat as him.
Also, Vitiate can/will crush the wills of both simultaneously. Simple.
Originally posted by Arhael
I am in position because some "players" claims mean nothing, it is not canon and not evidenced anywhere. I never jump to quick conclusions.
Originally posted by Arhael
The thing is that you don't know. You assume and believe that there was some ritual but you don't know, if it is true and no one can prove that. And I am sure that you are misinformed because such important information would certainly be mentioned at least somewhere, most likely in wookieepedia. And, while you try to show how unbiased you are, trying to give excuses like he used Force lightning instead of Force Storm and relying on most certainly false information to prove that he was much weaker to discard his legitimate loss is VERY biased.
Ones again I point out at stupidity of counting amount of bolts. Because that would mean that Sidious' lightning is much weaker, than Vitiate's, which is ridiculous assumption.
--------------
Now! Embrace the dark side by joining me.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDOr just make him enraged and unleash a Force blast. You know it now becomes assumption vs assumption. But I don't see how it will surprise him as Palpatine is adept at mental powers as well.
Vitiate's mental powers will surprise him and overcome him.
Satele admitted that she can fall to his influence. Is this too difficult to understand?Does it make her defenseless against mind domination? Luke admits many times that he can die in next confrontation. Does it prove he will die?
When Sidious bombarded him with Lightning.
Your realization is baseless.No it's not. I see your points and respect that. But don't give me sh*t like this. People don't have realizations out of nothing.
You need to establish this. I have pointed out before that you do not see mental powers in action.Don't you need to establish it, if your opinion is that he mind dominated them during combat? Force lightning takes a lot of concentration leaving no space for mind domination, especially, when it is used in wide range, this is my establishment.
Oh really? After all the years he spent with Vader - he did not had a brush with darkside? Do you even understand that what brush with the darkside even means? Extremely illogical statement by you.Extremely illogical perception of my statement. What I meant by that is that it is not just newby brush with darkside. He trained from childhood to utilize it and to master it as his prime weapon. In no way it is his weakness, which would make him easier to mind dominate. Marek studying darkside all his life and utilizing it to full extend is not the same as Revan tainted by darkside but still struggling to remain Jedi.
Vitiate could afford to be careless because he was not in his original body?😆Sounds like shatterpoint capability to me.
Your understanding is flawed. Meetra was far behind and not even involved in this fight until this moment.Flawed? You better stop saying nonsense like that. Vitiate was stupid to toy with his victim and put him in vulnerable position as result. End of story.
My intended point is that intelligence is not important factor for Luke. He gets away with the situation with his power alone.Power alone was never enough for him to get away. Intelligence and wise decisions are always important.
This is not a valid argument. You need to realize the difference between fighting styles of Vitiate and Sidious.You need to realize that, when Sidious is in old body, there is no difference. Well, in game Vitiate uses illusions, perhaps this is the only difference.
You need to stop making Generalizations like theseIt is not Generalization
Baseless point.No more baseless, than you blaming authors and saying that Luke gets away with power alone and that my point is baseless.
In the second fight, the Jedi Knight fought Vitiate on his own terms. Thanks to Scourge for helping him (Jedi Knight) out and making this possible.Fighting much more powerful opponent on his own field in the middle of darkside nexus without help of three masters like last time hardly qualifies as his own terms. His terms would be fighting inside a Jedi academy.
Luke is an exception to this rule. Being a Luke fanboy, you fail to realize this.Luke is not exception to this rule. Being a Luke hater, you fail to realize this. By the way, topic is not about Luke and I am not fun of Satele Shan and actually don't like Marek.
More bolts; harder to counter.Implying that Sidious' lightning was much weaker because in movie it was portrayed only with three bolts is laughable.
Correction: Marek did not defeated Sidious.He did. Look at cutscene 5.40-6:00:
Also, Vitiate might/possibly would crush the wills of both simultaneously. Simple.Fixed.
You jump to conclusions without doing your homework.Nephthys revealed that on lightside Jedi Knight wastes time to save his girlfriend giving Vitiate time to regain his powers (if he was truly weaken at all). So my conclusions are still relevant. 😉
