Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Implications should not be equated with evidence, since they are by their very nature somewhat vague. You shouldn't disparage LeGenD for not concluding Marek is superior to the Jedi Knight based on rank.That said, Marek has shown himself to be substantially more powerful and ferocious than Vitiate in combat.
Don't discount Vitiate; he learned at the foot of Darth Bandon for a hundred years.Damn. I didn't even consider it, while making my conclusions!
Originally posted by Nephthys
As someone playing the Jedi Knight storyline I can say that my limits have been tested quite a lot. The Knight fights Sith Lords to the death near constantly and during a war. Marek trained with Proxy.
Originally posted by Arhael
And? He still failed against Jedi Knight.
Originally posted by Arhael
This is not assumption, this is opinion based on facts from the novel.
Originally posted by Arhael
No it is not excuse to belittle powers of anyone. I merely point out at stupidity of comparing Ventress actively trying to resist Yoda to Scourge submitting to Vitiate without slightest attempts to resist.
Originally posted by Arhael
Why should I have excuse to it at all as it is totally irrelevant to the subject?
Actually all feats of both Scourge and Vitiate are irrelevant. Whatever powers Scourge had, he never dared a single time to try resisting Vitiate, which makes comparison of Yoda disarming Ventress totally useless.
I gave you examples proving that Scourge would not engage stronger foe, unless circumstances suit him, while you try to counter it with his feats and combat capabilities brining out quotes as if I never read book myself. My point is Scourge did not resist Vitiate, however, Ventress did try to resist as much as possible. Conclusion, you can't compare this two things, whatever powers and skills each individual possessed.
Revan failed to overpower an Elite Guard with the Force. Why? Because the Elite Guard was empowered by Vitiate. Now how is this invalid example of Vitiate's power?
Originally posted by Arhael
So, is your opinion that Jedi Knight is more powerful than Satel Shan and Marek. Satel Shan, who is described as widely recognized as the most powerful Jedi of her time and Emperor's most hated foe?
Originally posted by Arhael
And Marek, who constantly tested his limitations, which puts his in power levels beyond any known Jedi and who was much even for Palpatine.
Originally posted by Arhael
It seems that you put Jedi Knight out of context as he singlehandedly engaged Vititate, did not get his mind raped, had fun time with his illusions and blocked his "Force Lightning Storm" for long enough to strike him down.
Also, Vitiate did not unleashed Force Lightning Storm in this duel. He unleashed normal Force Lightning attacks.
Originally posted by Arhael
So what is your point? Are you saying that Vitiate's power and capabilities are beyond Palpatine's?
Originally posted by Arhael
So, are you saying that Jedi Knight, which is still "Knight" for god sake, is more powerful and skillful, than Satel Shan and Marek?
Get the memo?
Originally posted by Arhael
You need to understand that Vitiate is not undefeatable and there are individuals in EU that are capable to defeat him or at least put up a good fight.
Originally posted by Arhael
And notice, I don't say that Marek or Satel would win Vititate. I said that either of them could defeat him individually, which means that they could loose as well, I never gave definite answer like you always give about Vitiate raping everyone. And again it is not Force power contest, all goes out, Vitiate's huge advantage in terms of superior power is only part of the complicated combat equation.
Also, let's not forget that others also have advantages Vitiate lacks. For instance Satel Shan as a Jedi and very experienced and wise grand master has superior self-control and clear focused state of mind. And Marek gets so insanely angry that, while he is still no much for Vitiate in terms of power, his Force bursts are much more offensive.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
That said, Marek has shown himself to be substantially more powerful and ferocious than Vitiate in combat.
According to the rumors, Vitiate was in weakened condition during his second encounter with Jedi Knight (JK).Rumors? That is the best excuse you could come up with? The most powerful Sith in center of Darkside nexus out of power? The very Sith that upon his death toppled entire castle?
Scourge stood no chance against Vitiate' powers. This simple fact escapes your brain.Scourge didn't try to fight, while Ventress did, yet, you compare feats. This fact escapes your brain.
Another useless rant from you.It is invalid because you don't need all that immense power to stop enemy that is not going to fight back and won't resist you in anyway.Revan failed to overpower an Elite Guard with the Force. Why? Because the Elite Guard was empowered by Vitiate. Now how is this invalid example of Vitiate's power?
And yet she never attempted to subdue Vitiate by herself? What was stopping her?Circumstances, story arc, could be many reasons. I can put it other way around. If she was the most hated Vitiate's foe, why he didn't subdue her by himself?
Because Vader ****ing was challenging. Chosen one. Even with lost limbs his medichlorian count was surpassing others. He was slaying Jedi even after loosing limbs. Referring to him as weakling is illogical.
Why did he found Vader a challenging opponent?
See above. Now let us also focus on the other side of the story; Vitiate demonstrated greater command of the Force.Whatever he demonstrated, he lost. The greatest command of the Force is not the all deciding factor, otherwise, Jedi would never defeat Sith.
Also, Vitiate did not unleashed Force Lightning Storm in this duel. He unleashed normal Force Lightning attacks.
Force lightning is always Force lightning, game names you use don't make it different. And why waste energy sending forks all over the place, when focused attack is more intensive?
Above OT Palpatine for sure.And this statement based on what exactly? I would agree, if you said RotS Palpatine, but not OT and after.
"You are immensely powerful" (Vitiate to JK)Does it make him more powerful, than Satel Shan and Marek?Get the memo?
Yes. But such individuals are extremely few in quantity.And Satel Shan capable of absorbing lightsaber energy like the Father and Marek moving star destroyer fall right into that category.
I disagree with the point that Satele and Marek can handle Vitiate at individual capacity.Which you are entitled to but it doesn't mean that you need to prove that others are wrong as there are facts playing in favor of both parties.
He has every right for that assumption. Vitiate doesn't have any combat experience, in fact he doesn't have any at all. From childhood he relied on his greater power. He simply overpowers others without need to try anything clever. He never even touched lightsaber. Other Sith feared him so much that were submitting to him without resistance. The very Darkside nexus on Dromund Cass belonged to him making his dominance unquestionable. While I agree that Marek is less powerful, however, in combat he utilizes his power more effectively as he was trained to use it, as he doesn't stay on one place but moves around, dodges attacks and catch enemies off guard with his powerful and instant Force attacks.
Wrong assumption.
Based on what we've seen from Vitiate as a duelist/combatant, I'd say he'd be fodder for anyone around Dooku's level. All of his most powerful attacks from telepathy to lightning require some sort of preparation, whereas Dooku is an extremely powerful and skilled telekinetic on the fly, one of the finest duelists in history, etc. As long as Dooku isn't a moron who gives Vitiate time to prepare his most powerful assaults (Revan, I'm looking at you), he'd waste Vitiate.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Based on what we've seen from Vitiate as a duelist/combatant, I'd say he'd be fodder for anyone around Dooku's level. All of his most powerful attacks from telepathy to lightning require some sort of preparation, whereas Dooku is an extremely powerful and skilled telekinetic on the fly, one of the finest duelists in history, etc. As long as Dooku isn't a moron who gives Vitiate time to prepare his most powerful assaults (Revan, I'm looking at you), he'd waste Vitiate.
How conveniently you keep forgetting this awesome display of power:
Dooku will be mind-dominated even before he will begin.
Originally posted by Arhael
Rumors? That is the best excuse you could come up with? The most powerful Sith in center of Darkside nexus out of power? The very Sith that upon his death toppled entire castle?
Point is that SWTOR story is still in progress. Until it is complete and all details come to light, it is premature to boast about this victory of JK.
Originally posted by Arhael
Scourge didn't try to fight, while Ventress did, yet, you compare feats. This fact escapes your brain.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is invalid because you don't need all that immense power to stop enemy that is not going to fight back and won't resist you in anyway.
These are my intended points:
1. The case of Revan gives a hint about Vitiate's defensive capabilities against TK based assaults.
2. The case of Scourge gives a hint about Vitiate's command of TK. He could perform a TK based feat without a gesture, which is rare occurrence in Star Wars. Yoda is another individual to have demonstrated similar capability with TK.
Originally posted by Arhael Circumstances, story arc, could be many reasons. I can put it other way around. If she was the most hated Vitiate's foe, why he didn't subdue her by himself?
And Vitiate is not like Malgus. He uses his minions and followers to use against his rivals.
Originally posted by Arhael
Because Vader ****ing was challenging. Chosen one. Even with lost limbs his medichlorian count was surpassing others. He was slaying Jedi even after loosing limbs. Referring to him as weakling is illogical.
2. Vader was powerful. No doubt. However, he never demonstrated all those fancy feats that Marek did. And yet he proved to be a challenging opponent for Marek. Doesn't this gives you any hint?
That fancy feats are for attracting audience by making products and storylines more appealing? That Marek had his limits? That another powerful Jedi or Sith might be capable of matching his feats? and vice versa..........
Do not overly-rely on Gary-Stu like showings of characters to draw conclusions about their chances against other powerful individuals. This just does not works well.
Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever he demonstrated, he lost. The greatest command of the Force is not the all deciding factor, otherwise, Jedi would never defeat Sith.
Have you noticed that why people favor Luke in every battle?
Originally posted by Arhael
Force lightning is always Force lightning, game names you use don't make it different. And why waste energy sending forks all over the place, when focused attack is more intensive?
Originally posted by Arhael
And this statement based on what exactly? I would agree, if you said RotS Palpatine, but not OT and after.
Vitiate's assension to power is not natural in any sense. Midichlorian count is mute point in his case. Vitiate uses mega-powerful rituals to enhance his power. He performed one such ritual on Nathema and you can see where it got him. By the time of Revan, Vitiate already possessed full command of the dark side. But Vitiate did not stopped here. He planned to repeat Nathema again and again until he would become INVINCIBLE.
Originally posted by Arhael
Does it make him more powerful, than Satel Shan and Marek?
Originally posted by Arhael
And Satel Shan capable of absorbing lightsaber energy like the Father and Marek moving star destroyer fall right into that category.
Originally posted by Arhael
Which you are entitled to but it doesn't mean that you need to prove that others are wrong as there are facts playing in favor of both parties.
1. Vitiate killed 9 Dark Council members (by himself). Scourge revealed this.
2. Vitiate defeated a Jedi Strike Team within few minutes. Video already shown in this thread.
3. Legend of Vitiate also gives a impressive portayal of his capabilities.
Originally posted by Arhael
He has every right for that assumption. Vitiate doesn't have any combat experience, in fact he doesn't have any at all.
Here is hint:
"My life spans millenia. Legions have risen to test me." (Vitiate to JK)
Originally posted by Arhael
From childhood he relied on his greater power. He simply overpowers others without need to try anything clever. He never even touched lightsaber. Other Sith feared him so much that were submitting to him without resistance.
Originally posted by Arhael
The very Darkside nexus on Dromund Cass belonged to him making his dominance unquestionable.
Originally posted by Arhael
While I agree that Marek is less powerful, however, in combat he utilizes his power more effectively as he was trained to use it, as he doesn't stay on one place but moves around, dodges attacks and catch enemies off guard with his powerful and instant Force attacks.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Epic load of shit.How conveniently you keep forgetting this awesome display of power:
Dooku will be mind-dominated even before he will begin.
I'm not forgetting anything. Vitiate needs time and preparation to mentally subdue an adversary who underestimates him. He has access to neither here and nothing says Dooku will make Revan's mistake.
Vitiate is pretty much flaccid in terms of conventional abilities.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
I'm not forgetting anything. Vitiate needs time and preparation to mentally subdue an adversary who underestimates him. He has access to neither here
Vitiate had natural affinity with telepathic powers.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
and nothing says Dooku will make Revan's mistake.
And Revan did not made any mistake. It is just that Vitiate was extraordinarily powerful.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon Vitiate is pretty much flaccid in terms of conventional abilities.
LeGenD
This is a misconception. He doesn't needs much time and preparation to mentally subdue an adversary.
So you agree that he needs at least some time? Concession accepted.
LeGenD
Individuals can quickly fell under his influence upon meeting him.
According to whom?
LeGenD
Revan is more powerful
Me
According to whom?
LeGenD
and self-less then Dooku.
Yeah? Dooku's taller.
LeGenD
He is also a great strategist. Didn't work.
Whatever expertise Revan may possess in military strategy, it clearly doesn't manifest in personal confrontations, given that his plans unraveled extremely quickly both times he confronted Vitiate.
LeGenD
This is BS. He successfully prevented Revan from striking him with the lightsaber.
Revan deflected all Vitiate's conventional lightning and was only subdued because he tried to catch Vitiate's storm barehanded. There's no reason to assume Dooku will make the same mistakes.
LeGenD
Dooku doesn't holds a candle to Vitiate.
Dooku's more than capable of taking Vitiate down.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
So you agree that he needs at least some time? Concession accepted.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon According to whom?
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon According to whom?
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Yeah? Dooku's taller.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
Whatever expertise Revan may possess in military strategy, it clearly doesn't manifest in personal confrontations, given that his plans unraveled extremely quickly both times he confronted Vitiate.
The following examples dismiss your baseless assumption:
1. He planned on how to deal with Basilisk War Droid
2. He planned the entire final raid against Sith Emperor
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon Revan deflected all Vitiate's conventional lightning and was only subdued because he tried to catch Vitiate's storm barehanded. There's no reason to assume Dooku will make the same mistakes.
Also, lightsabers are not sufficient to deal with FLS attacks. I can provide examples to support this point.
Revan used his lightsaber to block Force Lightning attacks when it was feasible to do so. However, when Vitiate unleashed FLS, Revan knew that lightsaber will not work and made his choice accordingly.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon Dooku's more than capable of taking Vitiate down.
Vitiate possessed the power to handle Revan, Meetra, and Scourge combined. And Revan himself is better then Dooku. Do the math now.
LeGenD
It happens so fast that the adversary is broke before getting the chance to strike Vitiate.
I stopped reading here.
When Vitiate tried to enthrall Revan in round two, Revan put him on his ass. You either haven't read the book or {more likely} you're being dishonest to trump up an otherwise impotent character.
Maybe this is why no one but Arhael talks to you on a consistent basis. 😬
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
I stopped reading here.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon
When Vitiate tried to enthrall Revan in round two, Revan put him on his ass. You either haven't read the book or {more likely} you're being dishonest to trump up an otherwise impotent character.
Revan had planned beforehand about how he would deal with Vitiate's telepathic powers when he would confront him again. But there was no known defence against Vitiate's telepathic powers. Revan performed a special feat to prevent Vitiate from crushing his will, which every tom, d*ck, and harry cannot pull off. And time was short.
Vitiate could again attempt to crush the will of Revan but decided to handle him with more conventional tactics instead. Vitiate's capabilites were never in question. It was all about choices/decisions.
Originally posted by ybrotes_Sargon Maybe this is why no one but Arhael talks to you on a consistent basis. 😬
Whatever happens after, he still legitimately single-handedly defeated Vitiate.
Point is that SWTOR story is still in progress. Until it is complete and all details come to light, it is premature to boast about this victory of JK.
Vitiate's power felt impossibly strong. You should focus on this hint. Resisting such power would be futile attempt.I am not questioning Vitiate's power and of opinion myself that he is far more powerful, than Yoda or any other Jedi to ever live. My point is that you made inadequate comparison because Vitiate needed to use only friction of his power to stop non-resisting Scourge. You should have used all these other examples on first place.This example has nothing to with that of Scourge.
These are my intended points:
1. The case of Revan gives a hint about Vitiate's defensive capabilities against TK based assaults.
2. The case of Scourge gives a hint about Vitiate's command of TK. He could perform a TK based feat without a gesture, which is rare occurrence in Star Wars. Yoda is another individual to have demonstrated similar capability with TK.
More excuses from you. She was reluctant because she feared that she might fell under Vitiate's influence if she confronted him. She had great responsibilities on her shoulders and her fall would be extremely demoralizing to the Republic and Jedi.
And Vitiate is not like Malgus. He uses his minions and followers to use against his rivals.Same could be said about her. She is not a young Knight anymore, her warrior adventure life is past and she now administers other Jedi and let younger generation to become mature.
1. Your claim that even with all that physical loss, midichlorian count of Vader is higher then that of all others, is baseless and without evidence.2. Vader was powerful. No doubt. However, he never demonstrated all those fancy feats that Marek did. And yet he proved to be a challenging opponent for Marek. Doesn't this gives you any hint?
That fancy feats are for attracting audience by making products and storylines more appealing? That Marek had his limits? That another powerful Jedi or Sith might be capable of matching his feats? and vice versa..........Before I was against Marek stuff myself but later I discovered that most of those feats are confirmed in books, unlike your Vitiate. And it is not for you to say as you yourself rely on over-hyped portrayal of the Force in TOR like on those silly things as Fold Space, fighting illusions, Force Lightning Storm and Floor Force Lightning.Do not overly-rely on Gary-Stu like showings of characters to draw conclusions about their chances against other powerful individuals. This just does not works well.
Well, genius! In case of versus debates, people consider 'command of the Force' and 'skills' of the individual as vital determinants in a battle and not the possibilities involved in dramatic conflict. This is what I learned from my debates here.Perfect self-control, perfect mind clarity, strong morals and believes are essential factors in combat, which authors always put emphasis at and which are the strongest side of Luke apart from his superior skills and immense potential, which he happened to have as well. Indeed greatest command of the Force is important factor in terms of Vitiate but what skills he had? He simply stands and throws Force attacks without trying to outwit opponent. There is nothing skillful in his fight.Have you noticed that why people favor Luke in every battle?
Vitiaite unleashed 12 bolts on Revan. In comparison, he unleashed just 2 bolts on Jk. Do the math now.Vitiate unleashed a few instant single bolts and one continues lightning, while on Jedi knight he unleashed two continuous lightning attacks, not bolts. Whatever math you talk about, Vitiate tried his best against Jedi Knight.
Actually Vitiate is very similar to Abeloth in capabilities. You will understand this after playing SWTOR. Rankings in Star Wars aren't concrete any more.Whatever he planned, it could make him more powerful or make out of him another failure like Nihilus, or he would simply explode from too much of power. Also, he can't consume planets by himself, he needs around hundred Sith to perform that feat. At his current state, he isn't more powerful, than Abeloth in any way.Vitiate's assension to power is not natural in any sense. Midichlorian count is mute point in his case. Vitiate uses mega-powerful rituals to enhance his power. He performed one such ritual on Nathema and you can see where it got him. By the time of Revan, Vitiate already possessed full command of the dark side. But Vitiate did not stopped here. He planned to repeat Nathema again and again until he would become INVINCIBLE.
Most likely. He is the prophesied champion of light by Revan.It wasn't prophecy, he simple stated that it is the way of the Force that there will be someone who will defeat him. And champion of the light definition is not associated with immensely powerful.
Do not get me wrong. Satele and Marek are among the most powerful individuals in the whole mythos. However, Vitiate has demonstrated greater knowledge and command of the Force in comparison to these individuals.Neither did Jedi Knight and his feats are below either of them.
You are contradicting your above assertion (Vitiate doesn't have any combat experience, in fact he doesn't have any at all) with this one. Nice going.It is not contradiction. Combat is essentially fighting, where enemy needs to outwit or outskill opponent. Vitiate doesn't have combat skills, he's got raw power he uses to overwhelm opponents, which has nothing clever. Should we put Palpatine against him, who's power rivals his but on top of that he is master in lightsaber combat, uses surrounding and positioning to his advantage, moves faster than I can catch and strike with Force, when least expected, then Vitiate without his significant advantage in power will go down pretty quickly.
You need to understand that Vitiate has faced far more then Marek. His experience alone trumps that of any other individual in the mythos.Ok, what makes Jedi Knight better, than Vitiate? By no way Jedi Knight could be more powerful, than Marek.
Originally posted by Arhael
It is not contradiction. Combat is essentially fighting, where enemy needs to outwit or outskill opponent. Vitiate doesn't have combat skills, he's got raw power he uses to overwhelm opponents, which has nothing clever. Should we put Palpatine against him, who's power rivals his but on top of that he is master in lightsaber combat, uses surrounding and positioning to his advantage, moves faster than I can catch and strike with Force, when least expected, then Vitiate without his significant advantage in power will go down pretty quickly.
This does not prove Palpatine can beat Vitiate. You know why? Because Palpatine is not invincible or unbeatable.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
This does not prove Palpatine can beat Vitiate. You know why? Because Palpatine is not invincible or unbeatable.
In this case I wasn't trying to prove that Sidious stomps. Generalizing, if you put two more or less equally powerful opponents and only one of them wields lightsaber, then naturally the one with lightsaber will have the advantage. I put Sidious as example because he is the only one I know, who could much Vitiate in power and happened to be master in lightsaber combat on top of that.