Kal-L Vs Kingdom Come Superman

Started by quanchi1129 pages

Originally posted by Delta1938
I see many people bring this up to try and dismiss the showing. There was a mention of the fabric being effected, but it also stated that the more worlds there were, the weaker it'd get. And there were MANY more worlds when Black Adam was freed and attacked Superboy Prime, with the intent to kill him. With his equivalent of Zeus-Amped punches. What happened? Nothing. So, what does that say that someone who's allegedly Superman's peer amps the force of his blows when the situation makes the fabric even weaker and still fails to do much of anything? I say it says that people should stop dismissing what Kal-L and Kal-El did.
It's the same thing with two Thor hammers colliding and affecting all of reality. It doesn't mean a whole heckuva lot anyway but the instance with the two mjolnirs isn't diminished by reality being in a state of upheaval.

It's like Odin and Seth affecting all of reality in one showing and in another between Galactus and Odin nothing even close to that happens. That doesn't mean Seth and Odin are more powerful than Galactus and Odin. This stuff doesn't really determine superiority it's just window dressing.


So, what are these comparisons again? The only example I see that people use to argue KC Superman>New Earth Superman is the Hercules comparison. But as Salsa pointed-out, it really looked like a case of New Earth Superman wasn't prepared but KC was. And really, NE Superman has the feats to support this. He's tanked punches from Supergirl, DOS Doomsday, Pocketverse Superboy and more, all who are stronger than Hercules, when he's prepared. And the punch catching KC Superman did? NE Superman has caught Wonder Woman's punch, as well as her full-body charge, with casualness, and while weakened, caught Captain Marvel's punch. And both are stronger than Hercules.[/B]
That's ridiculous. If someone swings a sledgehammer at my face I won't do any better if I stand there and brace for it. Irl people move out of the way they wouldn't just stand there and take a free shot to the face. I didn't say Superman can't tank punches from greater foes but in this instance they both were hit one didn't budge. One could hear things the other couldn't to demonstrate superiority.


I really do want to see these examples that make you think KC Superman is stronger than NE Superman.

Oh, and if you want to continue where we left off a while back, go ahead and bump the threads and please send me PMs with the links. If you won't, I'll try to get around to it soon.[/B]

Comparative showings like this and the fact Kc Superman has been exposed to the yellow solar energy longer.

Well, I disagree about what Kal-L was shown to be. I mean, he didn't have all that many appearances after COIE that I'm aware of, but he still had that space/time shattering feat. But also, Kal-L was shown to be at least a notch below Earth-One Superman Pre-CRISIS, so of course he'll look inferior to Superboy Prime who I believe was closer to E1 Supes.
[/B]

The space/time shattering feat is just window dressing. It proves nothing. I also think the timing of the feat has to be taken into consideration.

This I agree on. There's a pretty consistent hypocrisy by a lot of Marvel fans in stuff like this. Also reminds me of how they try to dismiss speed-blitz arguments by going, "And how often does (Character X That's Not A Member Of The Flash Family) speedblitz?" yet bring-up obscure powers that their preferred character has used once or twice when it helps them, even if the power was used less often than speedblitzing. [/B]

That's untrue. Characters vary writer to writer but the portrayal of precrisis characters isn't in the same ballpark as it used to be.

Kal-L is superior than KC Superman period feats prove this, Kal-L is still have PC feats, not as strong as PC Superman but pretty damn close and still more powerful than KC Superman.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Kal-L is superior than KC Superman period feats prove this, Kal-L is still have PC feats, not as strong as PC Superman but pretty damn close and still more powerful than KC Superman.
So ne Superman is almost as strong as precrisis Superman ? Is this what I am getting ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
So ne Superman is almost as strong as precrisis Superman ? Is this what I am getting ?

Earth 2 Pre Crisis Superman, maybe.

He might even be stronger, as Earth 2 Supes was staggered by an atomic explosion that was partially contained by Alan Scott and Wonder Woman's lasso.

Originally posted by cdtm
Earth 2 Pre Crisis Superman, maybe.

He might even be stronger, as Earth 2 Supes was staggered by an atomic explosion that was partially contained by Alan Scott and Wonder Woman's lasso.

Earth 2 and Precrisis Superman weren't that far off in power towards the end Coie. Precrisis had the edge but both characters were written so much more powerful back then it's not even close.

Despite the crisis not affecting the new gods their power levels have all been written down as well.

KC Superman is a good, but he is not in the same league with PC Superman's Golden and Silver age in terms of strength,power and feats Golden Superman would beat the snot bubbles out of KC Superman!!

Originally posted by the Darkone
KC Superman is a good, but he is not in the same league with PC Superman's Golden and Silver age in terms of strength,power and feats Golden Superman would beat the snot bubbles out of KC Superman!!
We saw him in infinite crisis so what makes you believe he'll just maul Kc Superman ? He didn't just maul Ne Superman; did he ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's the same thing with two Thor hammers colliding and affecting all of reality. It doesn't mean a whole heckuva lot anyway but the instance with the two mjolnirs isn't diminished by reality being in a state of upheaval.

It's like Odin and Seth affecting all of reality in one showing and in another between Galactus and Odin nothing even close to that happens. That doesn't mean Seth and Odin are more powerful than Galactus and Odin. This stuff doesn't really determine superiority it's just window dressing.

Nice strawman/dodge, Quan. Kal-El and Kal-L shattered space/time as a side effect in their fight. Black Adam, who's allegedly near Superman in strength, many argue equal, some argue superior, intended to kill Superboy Prime, and used his equivalent of Zeus-Amping, when there were more worlds and should've weakened it more. That tells me that there's more to the feat than people like you want to admit.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's ridiculous. If someone swings a sledgehammer at my face I won't do any better if I stand there and brace for it. Irl people move out of the way they wouldn't just stand there and take a free shot to the face. I didn't say Superman can't tank punches from greater foes but in this instance they both were hit one didn't budge. One could hear things the other couldn't to demonstrate superiority.

So, you claim my point is ridiculous, but then say you didn't say Superman can't tank punches from greater foes like it somehow dismisses my point? I'm betting Superman was unprepared. And the fact that there's multiple examples of him tanking punches from those stronger than Hercules, some of them MUCH stronger, some of the examples while still under Byrne-era power level, pretty much backs my point. About the only valid argument in this paragraph is the hearing comparison, but it's evidence, not proof, for overall more powerful.

By the way, I believe I've heard about you arguing against being mad means you wouldn't tank sledgehammer blows to the face in a different thread. I'm sure you're unaware of examples of people doing similar, even superior, things. There was one incident a cop told about where a guy had tanked not only blows to the back/side of the head and face by pipes, but tanked shots to the chest(no, no Kevlar vest) as well. And when the cop had put the barrel of the gun directly to the dude's head and shot him(not only had this guy already tanked several shots to the chest, but had killed the cop's partner), the guy got right back up after he fell. Just sayin'.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Comparative showings like this and the fact Kc Superman has been exposed to the yellow solar energy longer.

Fail, Quan. The Hercules comparison is highly questionable, and I specifically said I wanted to see these examples. You simply saying there's "--showings like this--" proves nothing. I see you and others argue that KC Superman is just on another level, well SHOW me. The longer solar exposure is only a reason, not proof.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The space/time shattering feat is just window dressing. It proves nothing. I also think the timing of the feat has to be taken into consideration.

Another fail, it dodges the points addressed before.

[QUOTE=13893020]Originally posted by quanchi112
[B]That's untrue. Characters vary writer to writer but the portrayal of precrisis characters isn't in the same ballpark as it used to be.

What the HELL does this have to do with my agreeing that Marvel fans tend to be hypocrites and dismiss points like speedblitzes because, "How often do you see Character X do that?" but dig-in and throw-out some obscure feat for their preferred character?

Also, earlier someone asked you why THE KINGDOM isn't canon. I want to know your answer as well.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Nice strawman/dodge, Quan. Kal-El and Kal-L shattered space/time as a side effect in their fight. Black Adam, who's allegedly near Superman in strength, many argue equal, some argue superior, intended to kill Superboy Prime, and used his equivalent of Zeus-Amping, when there were more worlds and should've weakened it more. That tells me that there's more to the feat than people like you want to admit.

So, you claim my point is ridiculous, but then say you didn't say Superman can't tank punches from greater foes like it somehow dismisses my point? I'm betting Superman was unprepared. And the fact that there's multiple examples of him tanking punches from those stronger than Hercules, some of them MUCH stronger, some of the examples while still under Byrne-era power level, pretty much backs my point. About the only valid argument in this paragraph is the hearing comparison, but it's evidence, not proof, for overall more powerful.

By the way, I believe I've heard about you arguing against being mad means you wouldn't tank sledgehammer blows to the face in a different thread. I'm sure you're unaware of examples of people doing similar, even superior, things. There was one incident a cop told about where a guy had tanked not only blows to the back/side of the head and face by pipes, but tanked shots to the chest(no, no Kevlar vest) as well. And when the cop had put the barrel of the gun directly to the dude's head and shot him(not only had this guy already tanked several shots to the chest, but had killed the cop's partner), the guy got right back up after he fell. Just sayin'.

Fail, Quan. The Hercules comparison is highly questionable, and I specifically said I wanted to see these examples. You simply saying there's "--showings like this--" proves nothing. I see you and others argue that KC Superman is just on another level, well SHOW me. The longer solar exposure is only a reason, not proof.

What the HELL does this have to do with my agreeing that Marvel fans tend to be hypocrites and dismiss points like speedblitzes because, "How often do you see Character X do that?" but dig-in and throw-out some obscure feat for their preferred character?

Also, earlier someone asked you why THE KINGDOM isn't canon. I want to know your answer as well.

👆

Originally posted by Delta1938
Nice strawman/dodge, Quan. Kal-El and Kal-L shattered space/time as a side effect in their fight. Black Adam, who's allegedly near Superman in strength, many argue equal, some argue superior, intended to kill Superboy Prime, and used his equivalent of Zeus-Amping, when there were more worlds and should've weakened it more. That tells me that there's more to the feat than people like you want to admit.
Two Thors affected all of reality with two hammers colliding in battle. Neither feat decides any of these matchups. No, you want to make more of this feat than it shoul dbecause you love Superman but ignore other great feats which also don't decide versus matchups. Reality was in flux during this time. That's really important but you want to pretend it isn't.


So, you claim my point is ridiculous, but then say you didn't say Superman can't tank punches from greater foes like it somehow dismisses my point? I'm betting Superman was unprepared. And the fact that there's multiple examples of him tanking punches from those stronger than Hercules, some of them MUCH stronger, some of the examples while still under Byrne-era power level, pretty much backs my point. About the only valid argument in this paragraph is the hearing comparison, but it's evidence, not proof, for overall more powerful.[/B]
Superman's invulnerable. The other Superman is as well. The force of the blow was strong enough to hurt Ne Superman but not enough to even budge Earth 22 Superman. Showings vary and power levels vary. This writer compared two characters and in this comparison it wasn't close.

By the way, I believe I've heard about you arguing against being mad means you wouldn't tank sledgehammer blows to the face in a different thread. I'm sure you're unaware of examples of people doing similar, even superior, things. There was one incident a cop told about where a guy had tanked not only blows to the back/side of the head and face by pipes, but tanked shots to the chest(no, no Kevlar vest) as well. And when the cop had put the barrel of the gun directly to the dude's head and shot him(not only had this guy already tanked several shots to the chest, but had killed the cop's partner), the guy got right back up after he fell. Just sayin'.
[/B]
Adrenaline and drugs can change things but being hit will still make you bleed. Earth 22 Superman wasn't even fazed in the slightest.

Fail, Quan. The Hercules comparison is highly questionable, and I specifically said I wanted to see these examples. You simply saying there's "--showings like this--" proves nothing. I see you and others argue that KC Superman is just on another level, well SHOW me. The longer solar exposure is only a reason, not proof.
[/B]
I gave you a direct showing between the two comparing them. I feel like the bomb that went off, the Marvel tanking magical lightning showing, how easily he impressed the jsa and tossed them aside like ragdolls, the showing against third World Gog where he punched the magical lightning while it was warping others.

Well, I gave you one direct showing and you will disagree with everything that's direct so I further elaborated on it with this reason.

What the HELL does this have to do with my agreeing that Marvel fans tend to be hypocrites and dismiss points like speedblitzes because, "How often do you see Character X do that?" but dig-in and throw-out some obscure feat for their preferred character? [/B]

It's the same for marvel characters. People don't argue godblast or bfr right out of the gate for Thor. If they went the powerset route with them then you'd have a point but since I can't recall anything you're just complaining.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's not canon.

Says who?

Marvel fanboys are no more or no less biased than DC fanboys.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Marvel fanboys are no more or no less biased than DC fanboys.

I disagree, I have never seen a DC fanboy saying that Superman can defeat the Presence via strength, like I have seen Hulk fans claiming that Hulk can defeat TOAA because he has infinite strength.

As a matter of fact recently I saw someone implying that Thanos can defeat TOAA with prep time 😕

But never seen a DC fanboy claiming Darkseid can defeat The Presence with or with out prep time.

That is only two examples on the top of my head.

Go figure.

Originally posted by Cogito
Kal-L is a pre-crisis Kryptonian. All his feats from pre-crisis and the crisis technically remain canon to him.

People seem to be getting hung up on the fact that even though he technically hasn't had a retcon, he clearly wasn't written at PC levels during his post-crisis appearances.

Honestly though, it's the same thing as using classic showings from various Marvel characters in the same time period. They aren't written at the same level today, but some of the same people who would dismiss Kal-L would have no qualms about using a random one-time classic Thor feat to prove a point if it suited their argument.

/shrug 😬

I want to be like you when I grow up 🙂

Originally posted by Delta1938
Nice strawman/dodge, Quan. Kal-El and Kal-L shattered space/time as a side effect in their fight. Black Adam, who's allegedly near Superman in strength, many argue equal, some argue superior, intended to kill Superboy Prime, and used his equivalent of Zeus-Amping, when there were more worlds and should've weakened it more. That tells me that there's more to the feat than people like you want to admit.

So, you claim my point is ridiculous, but then say you didn't say Superman can't tank punches from greater foes like it somehow dismisses my point? I'm betting Superman was unprepared. And the fact that there's multiple examples of him tanking punches from those stronger than Hercules, some of them MUCH stronger, some of the examples while still under Byrne-era power level, pretty much backs my point. About the only valid argument in this paragraph is the hearing comparison, but it's evidence, not proof, for overall more powerful.

By the way, I believe I've heard about you arguing against being mad means you wouldn't tank sledgehammer blows to the face in a different thread. I'm sure you're unaware of examples of people doing similar, even superior, things. There was one incident a cop told about where a guy had tanked not only blows to the back/side of the head and face by pipes, but tanked shots to the chest(no, no Kevlar vest) as well. And when the cop had put the barrel of the gun directly to the dude's head and shot him(not only had this guy already tanked several shots to the chest, but had killed the cop's partner), the guy got right back up after he fell. Just sayin'.

Fail, Quan. The Hercules comparison is highly questionable, and I specifically said I wanted to see these examples. You simply saying there's "--showings like this--" proves nothing. I see you and others argue that KC Superman is just on another level, well SHOW me. The longer solar exposure is only a reason, not proof.

What the HELL does this have to do with my agreeing that Marvel fans tend to be hypocrites and dismiss points like speedblitzes because, "How often do you see Character X do that?" but dig-in and throw-out some obscure feat for their preferred character?

Also, earlier someone asked you why THE KINGDOM isn't canon. I want to know your answer as well.

😖mart:

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Marvel fanboys are no more or no less biased than DC fanboys.

Possibly; there are just more Marvel ones.

Originally posted by biensalsa
I disagree, I have never seen a DC fanboy saying that Superman can defeat the Presence via strength, like I have seen Hulk fans claiming that Hulk can defeat TOAA because he has infinite strength.

As a matter of fact recently I saw someone implying that Thanos can defeat TOAA with prep time 😕

But never seen a DC fanboy claiming Darkseid can defeat The Presence with or with out prep time.

That is only two examples on the top of my head.

Go figure.

Okay?

And I've seen people claim that Superman using his speed could solo Marvel Earth, I've seen claims that Flash can hit the force of thousands of galaxies, Superboy Prime exists in the real world, Superman can sing any abstract being out of existence, and H/P Doomsday is virtually unbeatable.

The fact of the matter is bias is a two-way street and exists to absurd fanboy proportions on both spectrums. Anyone objective enough to take a step back and look past their favorite character or company can see it.

Seriously, for every stupid "Marvel Fanboy" comment you can scrounge up on KMC or the internet, I can find an equally stupid "DC Fanboy" one.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Possibly; there are just more Marvel ones.

Here or in general?

Because on KMC, it's pretty easy to point out who leans towards the House of Ideas, the Distinguished Competition, or in the middle, imo. And given the regular posters who frequent the forum, it's pretty balanced out.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Here or in general?

Because on KMC, it's pretty easy to point out who leans towards the House of Ideas, the Distinguished Competition, or in the middle, imo. And given the regular posters who frequent the forum, it's pretty balanced out.

I don't honestly agree. shrug

I meant here, btw.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Possibly; there are just more Marvel ones.

I guess if you're looking at fanboys, there's not really as many on the DC side.

Batgod and Cassandra Cain uber fans don't really exist on this board, and I think there's only really one or two Superman fans, while there's a ton of Hulk, Wolverine, or Cap fans..

Excluding the obviously biased fans though, the even handed posters aren't half as lopsided.. I can think of more than a few posters who are just as willing to vote for DC as Marvel, depending on how they think feats stack up, and actually look for feats to argue from..