Superman vs WBH-To the Death

Darkseid and the New Gods aren't quite comparable to other comic book characters. Darkseid, for instance, is known for having many avatars of himself running around, rather like Doctor Doom has robotic clones thoroughly seeded throughout the Marvel Universe, but on a level still more extreme than that.

What is Darkseid's true form? What is that of any New God?
Is it matter? Is it spirit? Some combination of the two?

What form is mentioned by the prophecies surrounding Darkseid and other New Gods?

I don't think the answers are as clear as most people pretend ...

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Source: Death of the New Gods #8, Volume 1
Writer: Jim Starlin
Penciller: Jim Starlin
Date: June 2008
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Death_of_the_New_Gods_Vol_1_8

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
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Source: Death of the New Gods #8, Volume 1
Writer: Jim Starlin
Penciller: Jim Starlin
Date: June 2008
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Death_of_the_New_Gods_Vol_1_8

I like this guy.

Originally posted by biensalsa
You get your "average" Superman from a holding back Superman who is living in a world made out of glass.

Pretty much the same as Thor who holds back.

Now, you have a portrayal of HULK who is not holding back and now you think this is the norm for Hulk.

But don't take into consideration that Thor or Superman hold back.

There are few instances of Superman or Thor not holding back.

Take those and compare them vs a Hulk not holding back and then You see what is being discussed here.

As much as anyone wants to lower the feat in IC of time shattering punches. Fact is that it was only kryptonians the ones who shattered time, how much the universe was unstable it is unclear, but Black Adam who is a "peer" to Superman punched SBP and He did not shattered time right?

SBP can take time shattering forces but BA didn't deliver them even if the universe was unstable.

Another instance of Superman not holding back states that a character who can shrink to sub atomic levels and alter his mass and density, cannot survive the full brunt of Superman's speed and strength.

Another instance in which you could say SM is not holding back damages the body of Darkseid who has been taking powerful attacks with out a scratch.

Breaking Doomsday neck when almost running out of solar energy?

Pulverizing the shadow moon a celestial object of 81 billion tons traveling at 7,614,000 km/h or 4,731,120 miles per hour or 2,115,000 m / s

And quote:

"Now, for the sake of argument, let's say that we have an object impacting the Earth at escape velocity. (That is, the speed it would have if it was dropped from rest a very far distance away and permitted simply to fall onto the Earth.) That's something like [B]11,000 meters per second , which is pretty fast. How much mass would it need to have to produce the kind of energy we need in the collision to destroy the planet?
The calculation isn't too difficult. The energy of the rock is G*M*m/R, where little m is the mass of the object, and the other variables are the same as before. This needs to be equal to (3/5)*G*M*M/R in order to produce enough energy to destroy the Earth. Solving the equation for m, we see: m=(3/5)*M.
So, the mass of the asteroid is just 3/5 times the mass of the Earth. In other words, you need a planet or large moon to cause that kind of damage"

Shadow moon is traveling at 2,115,000 m / s

2,115,000 m / s >>>>>>> 11,000 meters per second that is 192 times FASTER

Now think about this for a second

Superman stopped the Shadow moon dead in it's tracks and He PULVERIZED the object. You have any idea of the amount of force required to PULVERIZE an object of that size traveling at those speeds with a body that weights 200 lbs?

After reading this please tell me that You think Savage Hulk can defeat a CIS less Superman who is willing to kill.

And I'm just using Speed and strength, I have not even gotten into Laser lobotomy and the other powers he has. [/B]

This is a GREAT analysis.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
This is a GREAT analysis.

Got to be addressed, then ...

Unfortunately, I don't have a significant collection for anything regarding Hulk. But, perhaps there are others who do ... ?

it was only kryptonians the ones who shattered time, how much the universe was unstable it is unclear,

I'm thinking "Hulk versus time storm", seen long ago in someone's respect thread. If anyone had knowledge, image, and issue number for that, it would probably counter "kryptonian time shatter" very effectively.

Another instance of Superman not holding back states that a character who can shrink to sub atomic levels and alter his mass and density, cannot survive the full brunt of Superman's speed and strength.

Coming to mind is that Wendigo, one of the beings destroyed when Hulk collided with his wife, had a mystic power that prevented the full power of an opponent being used against him. Wendigo was destroyed along with everyone else from the shockwave from everything I can tell though.

The only remotely direct Marvel Comics comparison to Atom would be the West Coast Avengers android Vision. Don't know if Hulk ever fought him. Or how he fared if he did.

Another instance in which you could say SM is not holding back damages the body of Darkseid who has been taking powerful attacks with out a scratch.

Death of the New Gods v1 #8? An energy construct form of Darkseid, not what we're typically wont to see in the comics.

Superman/Batman v1 #13? Superman does this after Wonder Woman has weakened Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face AND after increasing his own strength by flying himself and Darkseid near the sun. That is not Superman as he normally is.

Breaking Doomsday neck when almost running out of solar energy?

If this is the original "Superman versus Doomsday" featured in the Death of Superman trade, doesn't the battle take place in the afternoon in downtown Metropolis?

If so, wouldn't this actually support the idea that Superman, even in direct sunlight, can be beaten comatose by a heavy-hitting "tank" character?

Pulverizing the shadow moon ...

Would not be comparable to GRAY Hulk, a far weaker form of Hulk than WorldBreaker, from what I understand, shattering an asteroid calculated to be TWICE the size of the entire planet EARTH.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but, didn't this collision also knock Superman completely OUT?

Hulk's asteroid feat doesn't seem to be well referenced anywhere.
Maybe I can fix that ...

Use "ctrl + f" to find the word "forrest" and locate the following after clicking the link provided below.

Fixit used Dr. M.A. Forrest’s experimental anti-magnetic jet-propelled fortified rocket springs to enhance leaping ability, destroyed immense asteroid launched at Earth by alien Ralfzz children, transported aboard their ship, destroyed security robot; Ralfzz apologized after learning Earth was inhabited, returned Fixit to Earth
(Marvel Comics Presents #52, 1990)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-Hulk_2007

Fixit used Dr. M.A. Forrest’s experimental anti-magnetic jet-propelled fortified rocket springs to enhance leaping ability, destroyed immense asteroid launched at Earth by alien Ralfzz children, transported aboard their ship, destroyed security robot; Ralfzz apologized after learning Earth was inhabited, returned Fixit to Earth
(Marvel Comics Presents #52, 1990)

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-Hulk_2007

Also might be useful to translate the few images I saved several years ago through KMC ...

Image 2 of 3.

Gray Hulk, the Asteroid Breaker.

I came upon the asteroid feat years ago. Think it was part of someone's respect thread on this same board.
Unfortunately, I think the original links to it have been broken or deleted.

Know that I came upon the story itself through Marvel's Official Digital Comics website sometime after that. Here is ref info for the story itself and a screen capture of their advertising page for the story.

Strangely, it seems the episode can be read in some sort of Wolverine Trade compendium even though this is the fan favorite showing of Hulk fans online everywhere ...

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Story Title: "Kids will be kids"
Source: Marvel Comics Presents #52, Volume 1
Writer: Ron Wilson
Penciller: Ron Wilson
Date: June 1990
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http://marvel.wikia.com/Marvel_Comics_Presents_Vol_1_52

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

If so, wouldn't this actually support the idea that Superman, even in direct sunlight, can be beaten comatose by a heavy-hitting "tank" character?

Doomsday is beyond most tanks. Superman held back until the very end of the fight. That Superman had CIS ON, this Superman has CIS OFF. Superman had several upgrades since DOS, including training from Mongul.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Doomsday is beyond most tanks. Superman held back until the very end of the fight. That Superman had [B]CIS ON, this Superman has CIS OFF. Superman had several upgrades since DOS, including training from Mongul. [/B]

So Doomsday is beyond WBH?

Perhaps it might be useful to ask the following questions.

In no particular order:

What exactly are people supposing the scenario is?
The most apt parallels I'M seeing for an out-of-character Superman that actually has comicbook support for this scenario are:

Greg Rucka's Sacrifice, Wonder Woman #219, where Rucka even said in an interview the month of release that he was trying to model the action on the fights of his boyhood idols, fights where the action was logical, had little bantering, the combatants were deadly serious, and the action had consequence that was observable and/or could be felt afterward.

Trinity #13, where Superman fights the Crime Syndicate of America.
The storyline is weird, the narration reads as if part of Superman's conscious has been fused with the more fight capable thinking of Batman and Wonder Woman. They contrast his new cold and swift but effective style to that of Ultraman, who is essentially Superman with bad intent WITHOUT skill, a point Superman makes himself as he trashes Ultraman.

Superman/Batman #13. Superman fools himself into thinking that Darkseid has killed Kara. To put himself in the right emotional state to do what it will take to put Darkseid down with some finality. Wonder Woman redirects a devastating Omega Blast back into Darkseid's face, giving Clark the opening he needs to take the now stunned Darkseid to the sun, where Clark's power is soon increased enough, and Darkseid weakened enough, for Clark to physically beat Darkseid into submission. Clark then Boom Tubes them in front of the Source Wall and imprisons Darkseid there.

Most extreme, only seen once: Superman fighting Mongul, Jr.
Don't know the issue number. Only seen in posted scans, never in the actual book. Superman manages either to phase or move himself fast enough to slip Mongul's punches. He gradually leads them down to the South Pacific where the tropical sun can sustain his power beyond Mongul's. Mongul eventually wears himself out swinging and missing.
Superman comments on the "rope-a-dope" technique he used and knocks Mongul out.
Only time I've ever seen Superman "phase" in a fight against an opponent, assuming he actually did.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
👆

What's the least amount of even roughly quantifiable force that has hurt World Breaker Hulk? What's the average? Is Superman able to generate that force under normal conditions? If amped? If moving at speed or trying to blitz (which generally LOWERS the force per punch of any attack, as even Superboy Prime FAR far stronger than our own Superman, demonstrated against the Flash team)?

How likely IS Superman to blitz, really? It's not part of his normal M.O.
Contrary to what people have said earlier, he does NOT normally perceive things at speed, and tends to approach things head on.
Notice that even in the Sacrifice scenario, he CHARGED "Doomsday" head-on, even as in SB13 he also CHARGED Darkseid head-on.
Superman is a "hands-on" type of fighter. Not one to slyly hang back and fight from great distance. His desire always seems to be to close the distance and go at it, lest I've simply been reading the wrong books.
I'm not seeing where that works for him in this encounter.
I don't see where he's going to get great foreknowledge about the Hulk and what his capabilities are. I don't see why Superman is going to feel the need to chess-match what looks like a standard mano y mano before Hulk lands a punch or simply gets a firm hold of him.
Have they fought before now in this scenario?
Is this Round Two and THAT's why Blue knows his ordinary methods for dealing with tanks won't work? What's the deal here?
What's the reasoning for the Superman side?

Originally posted by carver9
So Doomsday is beyond WBH?

Gundam post the scan of Hulk beating Doomsday, as I apparently erased it by accident.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Perhaps it might be useful to ask the following questions.

In no particular order:

What exactly are people supposing the scenario is?
The most apt parallels I'M seeing for an out-of-character Superman that actually has comicbook support for this scenario are:

Greg Rucka's Sacrifice, Wonder Woman #219, where Rucka even said in an interview the month of release that he was trying to model the action on the fights of his boyhood idols, fights where the action was logical, had little bantering, the combatants were deadly serious, and the action had consequence that was observable and/or could be felt afterward.

Trinity #13, where Superman fights the Crime Syndicate of America.
The storyline is weird, the narration reads as if part of Superman's conscious has been fused with the more fight capable thinking of Batman and Wonder Woman. They contrast his new cold and swift but effective style to that of Ultraman, who is essentially Superman with bad intent WITHOUT skill, a point Superman makes himself as he trashes Ultraman.

Superman/Batman #13. Superman fools himself into thinking that Darkseid has killed Kara. To put himself in the right emotional state to do what it will take to put Darkseid down with some finality. Wonder Woman redirects a devastating Omega Blast back into Darkseid's face, giving Clark the opening he needs to take the now stunned Darkseid to the sun, where Clark's power is soon increased enough, and Darkseid weakened enough, for Clark to physically beat Darkseid into submission. Clark then Boom Tubes them in front of the Source Wall and imprisons Darkseid there.

Most extreme, only seen once: Superman fighting Mongul, Jr.
Don't know the issue number. Only seen in posted scans, never in the actual book. Superman manages either to phase or move himself fast enough to slip Mongul's punches. He gradually leads them down to the South Pacific where the tropical sun can sustain his power beyond Mongul's. Mongul eventually wears himself out swinging and missing.
Superman comments on the "rope-a-dope" technique he used and knocks Mongul out.
Only time I've ever seen Superman "phase" in a fight against an opponent, assuming he actually did.

I don't think Sacrifice really counts, as it was Superman at a disadvantage, not some sort of amp.

Other examples of Superman minus CIS would be his stomping of the Probes in OWAW, and of course his battle with the elite.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What's the least amount of even roughly quantifiable force that has hurt World Breaker Hulk? What's the average? Is Superman able to generate that force under normal conditions? If amped? If moving at speed or trying to blitz (which generally LOWERS the force per punch of any attack, as even Superboy Prime FAR far stronger than our own Superman, demonstrated against the Flash team)?

How likely IS Superman to blitz, really? It's not part of his normal M.O.
Contrary to what people have said earlier, he does NOT normally perceive things at speed, and tends to approach things head on.
Notice that even in the Sacrifice scenario, he CHARGED "Doomsday" head-on, even as in SB13 he also CHARGED Darkseid head-on.
Superman is a "hands-on" type of fighter. Not one to slyly hang back and fight from great distance. His desire always seems to be to close the distance and go at it, lest I've simply been reading the wrong books.
I'm not seeing where that works for him in this encounter.
I don't see where he's going to get great foreknowledge about the Hulk and what his capabilities are. I don't see why Superman is going to feel the need to chess-match what looks like a standard mano y mano before Hulk lands a punch or simply gets a firm hold of him.
Have they fought before now in this scenario?
Is this Round Two and THAT's why Blue knows his ordinary methods for dealing with tanks won't work? What's the deal here?
What's the reasoning for the Superman side?

Characters get basic knowledge about their opponents beforehand.

Superman has, also, perceived things at speed before.

Originally posted by carver9
WTF? Even if reality wasn't messing up when the Supermen was fighting, other Heralds have similar fts. Hell, Savage Hulk has punched a whole in time...Thor has as well.

Really? Do they have feats in which EACH single punch is altering timelines?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/SHATTERS%20BOUNDARIES%20OF%20TIME%20AND%20SPACE/AC836SHATERINGTIMEANDSPACE2.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/INSANE%20FEATS/SHATTERS%20BOUNDARIES%20OF%20TIME%20AND%20SPACE/SUPERMAN226SHATTERSTIMEANDSPACE4-2.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
You bringing up Superman not holding back also isn't helping your argument since Wonder Woman fought a non holding back Superman and done well against him,

She did well? She was almost killed in under a minute and was saved by a celestial body dodging Wonder Woman. (PIS)

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW6.jpg

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/WonderWomanv2219SMVSWW7.jpg

Oh she is officially KO'ed right there, BUT the HEAT brings her back.

Mind that When she is KO'ed, Superman is already holding back again as He wants Doomsday to suffer.

If he wants Doomsday to suffer, then it means He does not want to kill him right away, but He want's to make him suffer.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20WONDER%20WOMAN/AOS643THISISWAHTSAVEDWWINSACRIFICE.jpg

The only time when you actually see Superman not holding back in that fight is on the first minute, Diana unable to brake the rape choke she is getting from Superman and Diana only survived because the Sun moved out of the way (see scans again and notice how the sun moves from Diana's back to Superman's back right before he punches her)

Originally posted by carver9
Black Adam fought a non holding back Supes and done well against him as well. I don't get you even saying that.

Yo mean when He hold his punch where He could have shattered a small moon? it's clear that if He was not holding back, he would have punched BA in the back of his head.

Originally posted by carver9
Also, even though you don't know this, Savage Hulk holds back as well, hell, he holds back tremendously...every hero does.

Show me Savage Hulk holding back "tremendously" as you are claiming, please.

Originally posted by carver9
You using high fts to aid in your argument that makes Superman a peer to the most powerful Hulk in existence is a flaw...especially when you have fts like this...

Savage Hulk being placed in a shrunken Universe and in a fight, destroying this same universe.

http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/dfd434506d

No, that is the Dimension right next to the Dark Dimension, I hope you won't claim that one of those Dimensions are the size of 616 universe just because someone used the term "Cosmos" or "universe"

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Hulk126_07a.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Or Savage Hulk powering through a blast capable of moving Worlds and repelling reality...

http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/e255e809cd

Repelling reality? yes, Moving worlds? not on panel. You know how much weight We can give to those statements if they are not backed by panel evidence.

But That is a nice feat for Hulk none the less

Originally posted by carver9
Or Savage Hulk fist fight causing unimaginable damage to an INFINITE amount of Dimensions.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=12952643

Yes, nice feat of Ironclad and Hulk in the Nexus. You know that in the nexus to enter to another dimension no force is required? You can just walk to it and no force will oppose. So is understandable why the force of Ironclad and Hulk can send a shockwave through so many open doors.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/Hulk301_09a.jpg

So, is not like the force of Ironclad and Hulk were having any opposition in the Nexus

Originally posted by carver9
Or Hulk punching the altering reality powers clean out of Onslaught.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c324/Hulk3389/comic%20book%20scans/onslaught15qq.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c324/Hulk3389/comic%20book%20scans/onslaught22sr.jpg

Full scans please.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Marvel%20Comics/on.jpg

And apparently a nuclear blast is enough to "punch the reality powers out of him" Which of course You know is a figure of speech.

If you take that figure of speech so literally then You won't have a problem with this

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/COMPLIMENTS%20AND%20ENVY%20FROM%20OTHERS/Superman_220_SPLITAPLANETWITHASNEEZE.jpg

Let me know what is your decision.

Originally posted by carver9
These fts sh** on anything you've mentioned but guess what, I'm not the crazy one that doesn't think Savage Hulk and Superman are peers.

TBH I only saw one feat that is respectable, the rest have context or are miss interpreted. and I don't think you showed anything on the league of what I wrote earlier.

Originally posted by carver9
Now WBH is a different story all together...he piss on Savage Hulk and this has been proven on panel...WWH and WBH>>>Savage Hulk.

What did WWH accomplished that Savage Hulk didn't?

To think that any of those Hulks are leaps and bounds ahead is really hopping for too much as Hulk has always had that kind of power, but his strength is dynamic. Maybe he does not look glowing green, but He can always achieve critical mass if the fueling anger is enough.

My point of view with Hulk is this

WBH is a 12 in strength level
Regular Hulk starts at 7 but He can range all the way to 12 with anger

WBH is only a shortcut

As I have always been aware that Hulk is a planetary threat

Originally posted by quanchi112
This isn't debating. His body wasn't solid mass. There's a reason he was drawn that way.

Superman went through his energy form which isn't the same as his his normal body. It did him no good.

Superman can't fly through his solid body.

Lets use your argument then. If Darkseid's body is made out of energy, Why Orion did not brake his body in a similar attack? Why the other attacks did not disrupted his energy, Why only Superman broke it when He tackled him?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You questioned him being a peer I never said they were equal. Learn to grasp what I say.

So We agree they are not equal

Originally posted by carver9
So Pak lied when he said WWH>>>>any Hulk before him.?

IMO I would not take interviews as literally as that.

Originally posted by carver9
That's like me saying Superman is stronger than Sundip Superman due to fts. Think abhilegend, think buddy.

Sundip Superman pushed a war world against it's engines at full trust and it was powered by Brainiac and Imperex Prime.

I doubt Regular Superman has any feat pushing against that much power.

Originally posted by biensalsa
IMO I would not take interviews as literally as that.

Sundip Superman pushed a war world against it's engines at full trust and it was powered by Brainiac and Imperex Prime.

I doubt Regular Superman has any feat pushing against that much power.

If the writer stated his intentions was to make WWH more powerful than any Hulk before him and he kept stressing it, kept stressing it, and kept on, then it is true. Even going by showings, WWH is greater than Savage. Savage Hulk got killed, got choke to sleep, got his arm broke, got drained back to banner, got punched to sleep again and all of this happened by Red Hulk...WWH fought this same Hulk and toyed with him and took him out with a thunder clap. Recent portrayals have WWH>>>>Savage Hulk and you ignoring solid evidence is showing your bias.