Superman vs WBH-To the Death

Started by Damborgson52 pages

Originally posted by Naija boy
Yes his footsteps threatened the eastern seaboard but i was referencing Amadeus Cho's comment in IH 632 in which he commented about his worry for the entire continent. This doesnt give more reason to believe that the Dark Dimension had something to do with it because the totality of the battles between all the Giant Hulks in IH 635 ON earth did less damage than WBH previous footsteps also ON earth and thus your attempt to isolate the dark dimension as the cause of this discrepancy becomes faulty.

Endangering the planet was a running theme through all of WBHs appearances. In the case of the mutated Hulk we got a mention by the Amadeus cho about how Hulk was about to break the world. This is however no different from WBHulk in WWH 5 saying stop him before he breaks the world, or from Umar in IH 632-633 talking about how she was saving the earths plane of existence from Hulk who was about to destroy it. Thus that statement about Hulk breaking the world in no way indicates a superior performance by mutated Hulk to previous appearances of WBH since it is identical to the other statements made about the worldbreaker in previous appearances. Consequently the fact that the footsteps of WBH in his previous appearances were shown to do more damage than the stomps and overall battle of the Giant mutated Hulks ON earth, discredits the notion of the dark dimension being the cause of the apparent inconsistency in the case of mutated Hulk. In my estimation we have a simple case of writer inconsistency and although i presented a possible way to harmonize the scenario, i believe it is still merely writer inconsistency at its core as writers dont break down scenes in the same way we do here on forums.

[
IMO it looked like he had visibly powered down from his WBH levels, particularly because while he perhaps did not always have energy surrounding him, WBH did most often have some form of energy leakage particularly from his eyes even within that very comic just a few pages before . In this case though he had reverted back to his regular green hue and merely had the glow in his eye that had characterized his pre WorldBreaker levels as seen in IH 632. Admittedly it is hard to determine but i believe that WBmode was portrayed in a certain way consistently enough to identify when it is or isnt in operation. However, this is all tangential anyways as whether he was in full out WBH mode or not upon leaving the Dark dimension, [B]the entire Giant Hulk battle at the end of the comic was still decidedly less impressive than WBH previous appearances ON earth as well as in the Dark Dimension in which his mere footstep cracked manhattan in half and rocked the eastern seaboard (on more than one occasion).

The thing is that the make up of the Dark Dimension and similar splinter realms is often dependant on the writer. It has been portrayed as an abstract dimension with warped time, perceptions, no gravity etc. it has been portrayed as a combination of several dimensions each with their own individual properties and inhabitants, and this time it was portrayed as a planet with an earthlike atmosphere (and gravity obviously). Hence the rules are not set in stone as you may have it. Then when you add in the fact that the statement being used to support this notion was actually an unconfirmed speculative statement made by Surfer iirc 20 or 30 years ago....then the context seems heavily contrived imo more than anything else which is why it differs from the superman feat. Moreover such a route also leaves room for arguing that the Hulk destroyed more than an earthsized planet since the Dark dimension has been previously portrayed as an extremely vast collection of realms (the largest of the magical splinter realms) that had been mystically merged into one...... Still im glad we both agree that the most impressive part of the feat is actually the characters destroyed.

Actually the entire race of of mindless ones getting destroyed is probably the most impressive part of the feat. Now, the mindless ones have up and down showings indeed sometimes being hurt by Thor and even lower and then at other times (and most recently) being nigh invulnerable, tanking neutron stars, shrugging off the nova corps unhurtable to even the likes of Umar etc. Hence they range from meta level to upper herald level durability. Now the only thing we know about their portrayal here is that at this point the totality of them formidable enough to take out Umar within her own dimension. This suggests a high level considering how powerful Umar is particularly within the Dark dimension. Additionally, the shockwave taking out their entire race is of particular importance and is what makes it most impressive.

This is because if taking out one mindless one at minimum requires X amount of energy. Taking out 2 mindless ones (assuming equal durability) will require at minimum 2X the energy and so on and so forth because energy dissipates with distance as well as with the more units it acts upon. Thus at a constant amount of energy the addition of more units will reduce the energy per unit volume of each individual unit. So even if you can take out one mindless one with a fair amount of ease (which im sure Umar can), taking out ten will be harder, as will taking out a hundred, a thousand etc. In simpler terms, the fact that the totality of the race of mindless ones (million to perhaps even billions) couldnt be taken out by even Umar in her own dimension (she would not even survive), but got taken out by the shockwave from the mid air physical impact between Hulk and betty (with the shockwave being exponentially less powerful than the epicentre of the collision) underscores the impressiveness of the feat and WBH in general.

Taking that into consideration the stature of the feat cant be denigrated even if the Dark Dimension was made out of toilet paper quite frankly 😄 😛 [/B]

Well while I disagree still to part of what your saying, I found myself agreeing more so than disagreeing. You presented this very in my opinion. Arguing certain points on here would be just nitpicking on my part so I tip my hat to you good sir. 👆

not to mention I took one look at it and I immediately lost the will to do a point by point rebuttal on something that long and tiresome 😛

Originally posted by biensalsa
Great Point Bada. Yes I agree.

I was referring to the idea of using an interview for his case

But let's see something here.

I have the arc and I love the concept though I the end was kind of a let down.

and I will use an analogy for the next point

Lets say Metallica is coming out with a new album, they will have their regular marketing process to promote the album, at some point Lars Ulrich claims that the new Album is the BEST album Metallica has ever recorded. The Album comes out and while decent it didn't bring anything new from what Metallica fans are used to.

IMO This is the same issue with Pak, his interview and his deliver of WWH.

What did WWH delivered that He did not delivered before?

He stalemated the Juggernaut
Stalemated Ghost rider (this is the only thing he did, that the previos Hulk's didn't)
Defeated a Black Bolt impersonator (Not the real one)
Defeated a Superman clone
Defeated Iron Man
Defeated Spiderman
Defeated She Hulk
Defeated the Thing
Defeated Stranger (but Stranger helped because he knew Zoom was worse than Hulk)

So, going by panel evidence WWH might be the most powerful Hulk to that date, but for how much?

Okay. Here's what we (mods) came up with regarding interviews:

Originally posted by Digi
Debating Format[b]No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.

Comics released strictly online or on web sites will not be considered proof in the Comic Book Versus Forum.

An obscure interview given by someone involved in a story arc is not proof to refute feats. Neither is a random post by a supposed writer on a message board, blogs, tweets, etc. There have been too many of these so called interviews which go against what's shown on panel. Especially when there is no dialogue to refute what's happening on panel. Most writers are clear with the intentions of the plot and story arc. [/B]

Superman wins

Originally posted by quanchi112
Orion didn't fly into him either but like I said it's an ineffective attack. Orion was winning or holding his own while Superman was easily defeated.

That does not answer what I asked you.

I understand you might see the attack ineffective or that Superman was defeated. But you are still not answering the question.

Originally posted by Badabing
Okay. Here's what we (mods) came up with regarding interviews:

So, Pak's interview cannot be used.

I'm okay with it. Carver and Blue are the one's using interviews

Originally posted by biensalsa
So, Pak's interview cannot be used.

I'm okay with it. Carver and Blue are the one's using interviews

People have used interviews which go directly against the dialog and art in a comic. Pak's interview just confirms what was said and shown on panel in the WWH arc.

That said, interviews still shouldn't be used as proof.

Originally posted by Badabing
People have used interviews which go directly against the dialog and art in a comic. Pak's interview just confirms what was said and shown on panel in the WWH arc.

That said, interviews still shouldn't be used as proof.

👆

Originally posted by biensalsa
That does not answer what I asked you.

I understand you might see the attack ineffective or that Superman was defeated. But you are still not answering the question.

You're impressed that he flew through his energy based body. I am not. Orion didn't attempt to nor was it effective. The circumstances and his approach were different.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You're impressed that he flew through his energy based body. I am not. Orion didn't attempt to nor was it effective. The circumstances and his approach were different.

Still that does not answer why DS body only broke with Superman's attack.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Still that does not answer why DS body only broke with Superman's attack.
Because it was made of energy and Superman flew right into it. I answered that already.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Because it was made of energy and Superman flew right into it. I answered that already.

If this is true, then why it did not got damaged by the other attacks?

Originally posted by biensalsa
If this is true, then why it did not got damaged by the other attacks?
Because Quan said so! Stop being such a noob! sneer

Originally posted by Badabing
Because Quan said so! Stop being such a noob! sneer

Ok, I got it 👆

Originally posted by biensalsa
If this is true, then why it did not got damaged by the other attacks?
Because a solid mass disabled it's form for a moment. No one other than Superman flew his body into his energy form. That's why.

Originally posted by biensalsa
Ok, I got it 👆
Good! 😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Because a solid mass disabled it's form for a moment. No one other than Superman flew his body into his energy form. That's why.

So only solid mass disrupted his energy form?

Then the Source is an idiot, he should have just grabbed a building and smash Darkseid in the head with it.

Seriously Quan, listen to yourself

Originally posted by biensalsa
So only solid mass disrupted his energy form?

Then the Source is an idiot, he should have just grabbed a building and smash Darkseid in the head with it.

Seriously Quan, listen to yourself

No, because disrupting the energy form wasn't effective at all. Do you listen to what I say. Superman's attacks were worthless Orion's weren't.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, because disrupting the energy form wasn't effective at all. Do you listen to what I say. Superman's attacks were worthless Orion's weren't.

Are you trolling me?

Superman's attack achieved what the other attacks did not, break Darkseid's body and no other force did it.

You should google "force"

Originally posted by biensalsa
Are you trolling me?

Superman's attack achieved what the other attacks did not, break Darkseid's body and no other force did it.

You should google "force"

Thor lightning went through CK body but Skyfather Herc attacks didn't. Which attack is more powerful?

Originally posted by biensalsa
Are you trolling me?

Superman's attack achieved what the other attacks did not, break Darkseid's body and no other force did it.

You should google "force"

Yeah Carver. Why don't you go "google" yourself!?

😆