Originally posted by carver9That's because herc was trying to fight him like a brick. C'mon Carver, you have to do better than that.
Thor lightning went through CK body but Skyfather Herc attacks didn't. Which attack is more powerful?
@quan- Doesn't really matter what DS's body was made of, superman's physical attack did what Orion's physical attack could not. Pretty straight forward if you ask me.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Got to be addressed, then ...Unfortunately, I don't have a significant collection for anything regarding Hulk. But, perhaps there are others who do ... ?
Somehow I missed this post and now preparing my response to Carver, I see your post.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
it was only kryptonians the ones who shattered time, how much the universe was unstable it is unclear,I'm thinking "Hulk versus time storm", seen long ago in someone's respect thread. If anyone had knowledge, image, and issue number for that, it would probably counter "kryptonian time shatter" very effectively.
Not really. This punches are actually changing timelines, guess what? because if his punches WW history changed 😄 and this happened with EVERY SINGLE PUNCH
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Another instance of Superman not holding back states that a character who can shrink to sub atomic levels and alter his mass and density, cannot survive the full brunt of Superman's speed and strength.Coming to mind is that Wendigo, one of the beings destroyed when Hulk collided with his wife, had a mystic power that prevented the full power of an opponent being used against him. Wendigo was destroyed along with everyone else from the shockwave from everything I can tell though.
The only remotely direct Marvel Comics comparison to Atom would be the West Coast Avengers android Vision. Don't know if Hulk ever fought him. Or how he fared if he did.
That is not helping your case, the instance you are talking about is HOTM Hulk, comparing that to this is exactly what was intended.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Another instance in which you could say SM is not holding back damages the body of Darkseid who has been taking powerful attacks with out a scratch.Death of the New Gods v1 #8? An energy construct form of Darkseid, not what we're typically wont to see in the comics.
Superman/Batman v1 #13? Superman does this after Wonder Woman has weakened Darkseid by reflecting his own Omega Beams back in his face AND after increasing his own strength by flying himself and Darkseid near the sun. That is not Superman as he normally is.
Please explain why Superman is the only one damaging that body with force.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Breaking Doomsday neck when almost running out of solar energy?If this is the original "Superman versus Doomsday" featured in the Death of Superman trade, doesn't the battle take place in the afternoon in downtown Metropolis?
If so, wouldn't this actually support the idea that Superman, even in direct sunlight, can be beaten comatose by a heavy-hitting "tank" character?
Yes, but a character who can defeat GL's and take and attack that opens a hole in space, who just defeated the whole JLA. Oh! and He did this BEFORE any upgrades.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pulverizing the shadow moon ...Would not be comparable to GRAY Hulk, a far weaker form of Hulk than WorldBreaker, from what I understand, shattering an asteroid calculated to be TWICE the size of the entire planet EARTH.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but, didn't this collision also knock Superman completely OUT?
No you are correct, the collision KO Superman, but lol at not being able to see the force necessary to stop a 81 BILLION ton celestial body traveling at 4,731,120 miles per hour
Calculate the force required to PULVERIZE that object, not to stop it, not to slow it, not to deflect it, not to break it in pieces like Hulk, but to PULVERIZE IT
F=MA
Have fun.
Originally posted by carver9
And what brick like character comparable to Hulk has Superman defeated that gives you the opinion that he can beat WWH. You also forgot to add...
There are several clones like Hulk, Superman has defeated. If you don't know that, you should check back on your Superman collection
Originally posted by carver9
He defeated the fantastic 4...
Tanked the full Nova force that was amped by an all out continuous lightning attack from Storm.
He did defeat Ghost Rider.
One shotted Ares
One shotted Doc Sampson
Almost killed Herc with 3 punches
DID defeat Zom Strange
One shotted She Hulk
Tanked a blast that had enough power to shed Rhode Island.
Defeated Juggernaut
Overpowered Skaar who was amped to 100 trillion tons of strength
Had Ms. Marvel, Sampson, War Machine, Thing, etc, scared to even approach him due to his power level.
Took an amped Rulk out with a thunder clap.
Defeated Wendigo and Bi Beast, two beings that was amped 1000 fold.
At a weakened state, shifted the tectonic plates of an entire planet.
I have this idea, that young readers make such a big deal about WWH and WBH, that I decided to compare him with a hulk that almost achieved critical mass but it did not had Banner to control the anger.
Banerless Hulk
WWH
For people to understand why am I using this particular Hulk is because this Hulk almost reached critical mass and was irradiating energy, pretty much the same way WBH did, but apparently unlike the new Hulk the energy Banerless Hulk irradiates actually disintegrates by touch.
The energy is so big that his body with out Banner has a hard time to control.
But on this irradiating stage He also defeats past enemies with ease
Here is Samson talking about those energies
This same Hulk is the one who took on The Thunderbolts by himself alone and with out help form the Warbound.
Now, lets really see what previous Hulk incarnations have achieved compared to this hulk.
Baby Hulk and Banerless Hulk is the horses I put my money on.
So lets see
Baby Hulk one shooting Ares? Pretty much
Baby Hulk vs Stranger (in WWH, Stranger realizes that Zoom is a bigger threat than Hulk and lets himself to be defeated by Hulk)
Baby Hulk ALONE vs team
VS THE FF? (This is not baby Hulk nor Banerless Hulk)
WWH defeating Ghost Rider? Not really
And Doc Samson? Come on, he often looses in a humiliating way vs Hulk
And defeating Juggernaut???
Not really, this is how it actually looks like defeating Juggernaut
BTW, That is Banerless Hulk
Oh and defeating a Superman clone like WWH did?
That is also Banerless Hulk, you know the one who irradiates disintegrating energy.
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, that Skrull Clone of Black Bolt was just as powerful...hell, he had fts that trumped the real deal like scream so hard that he broke through the fabric of time. WWH withstood his full scream...TWICE.
Black Bolt impersonator having the same power as the real Black Bolt?
I won't say that WBH or WWH are not strong, but to think that they are millions of times more powerful than previous Hulk incarnations is just silly, IMO. Hulk with the right amount of anger has always being capable of destroying a planet, difference now, is that on his critical mass stage Banner is there to control the energy where previous Hulk's didn't have that.
Originally posted by biensalsa
There are several clones like Hulk, Superman has defeated. If you don't know that, you should check back on your Superman collection
Carver has a Superman collection? Since when? I thought he just owned 10 Hulk comics (the ones that have his highest level feats of course).
Originally posted by carver9
It's pretty much hyperbole.
If this is a hyperbole like you say, then tell me why there are cracks on Superman's body?
Originally posted by carver9
Superman was amped by the sun and Wonder Woman still held her own and defeated him in the end while holding back. This boo boo all over your statement.
No, the scan I showed you, pretty much says that Superman does not wants to kill Doomsday, otherwise He would have killed Doomsday, therefore it means He is holding back. Pretty clear if you ask me, there is a difference between someone hitting you with the intentions of hurting you to suffer and someone hitting you with the intentions of killing you.
Originally posted by carver9
He said he wasn't going to hold back against Adam. Just because he didn't punch him in the back of the head doeant take away from this. Even though Superman wasn't holding back against Adam, that doesn't make him a dirty fighter.
When he had the intention of killing Doomsday or the 3 pocket kryptonians He didn't give a crap about fighting dirty. He even used Kryptonite.
Originally posted by carver9
Us seeing lightning flying off their body and world/dimensions shaking due to the force of their punches is proof that they were generating immense power. Their power being felt across an INFINITE amount of dimensions is an insane ft.
Is a nice feat with context, CONTEXT being a pretty meaningful word.
Originally posted by carver9
The difference between Hulk punching the altering reality powers out of Onslaught and Superman sneeze destroying a planet IS, Hulks ft actually happened (which was the reason him and Banner was separated). Superman never sneezed a planet in half. The only reason Onslaught became so powerful was due to him becoming living energy, not because of him getting the Altering reality power knocked clean out of him.
Look, if you want to take the face value of a figure of speech literally, that is your problem. "I think" and "meebe" should be taken carefully even if they come out of Reeds mouth, now imagine coming out of Gambit's mouth.
Originally posted by carver9
WTF are you talking about? Savage Hulk got curbed 4 times by Rulk...WWH toyed with Rulk and took him out with a thunderclap. This shows a difference in power level "lowballer".
Oh, I though you were talking about Black Bolt, not Rulk. "Highballer" 😄
Originally posted by biensalsa
There are several clones like Hulk, Superman has defeated. If you don't know that, you should check back on your Superman collectionI have this idea, that young readers make such a big deal about WWH and WBH, that I decided to compare him with a hulk that almost achieved critical mass but it did not had Banner to control the anger.
Banerless Hulk
WWH
For people to understand why am I using this particular Hulk is because this Hulk almost reached critical mass and was irradiating energy, pretty much the same way WBH did, but apparently unlike the new Hulk the energy Banerless Hulk irradiates actually disintegrates by touch.
The energy is so big that his body with out Banner has a hard time to control.
But on this irradiating stage He also defeats past enemies with ease
Here is Samson talking about those energies
This same Hulk is the one who took on The Thunderbolts by himself alone and with out help form the Warbound.
Now, lets really see what previous Hulk incarnations have achieved compared to this hulk.
Baby Hulk and Banerless Hulk is the horses I put my money on.
So lets see
Baby Hulk one shooting Ares? Pretty much
Baby Hulk vs Stranger (in WWH, Stranger realizes that Zoom is a bigger threat than Hulk and lets himself to be defeated by Hulk)
Baby Hulk ALONE vs team
VS THE FF? (This is not baby Hulk nor Banerless Hulk)
WWH defeating Ghost Rider? Not really
And Doc Samson? Come on, he often looses in a humiliating way vs Hulk
And defeating Juggernaut???
Not really, this is how it actually looks like defeating Juggernaut
BTW, That is Banerless Hulk
Oh and defeating a Superman clone like WWH did?
That is also Banerless Hulk, you know the one who irradiates disintegrating energy.
Black Bolt impersonator having the same power as the real Black Bolt?
I won't say that WBH or WWH are not strong, but to think that they are millions of times more powerful than previous Hulk incarnations is just silly, IMO. Hulk with the right amount of anger has always being capable of destroying a planet, difference now, is that on his critical mass stage Banner is there to control the energy where previous Hulk's didn't have that.
Now this was a good post. You stayed away from lowballing and you provided some good evidence. I'll be back to crush this though. By the way, show me some scans of Superman defeated someone on WWH level.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Perhaps it might be useful to ask the following questions.In no particular order:
What exactly are people supposing the scenario is?
The most apt parallels I'M seeing for an out-of-character Superman that actually has comicbook support for this scenario are:Greg Rucka's Sacrifice, Wonder Woman #219, where Rucka even said in an interview the month of release that he was trying to model the action on the fights of his boyhood idols, fights where the action was logical, had little bantering, the combatants were deadly serious, and the action had consequence that was observable and/or could be felt afterward.
Trinity #13, where Superman fights the Crime Syndicate of America.
The storyline is weird, the narration reads as if part of Superman's conscious has been fused with the more fight capable thinking of Batman and Wonder Woman. They contrast his new cold and swift but effective style to that of Ultraman, who is essentially Superman with bad intent WITHOUT skill, a point Superman makes himself as he trashes Ultraman.Superman/Batman #13. Superman fools himself into thinking that Darkseid has killed Kara. To put himself in the right emotional state to do what it will take to put Darkseid down with some finality. Wonder Woman redirects a devastating Omega Blast back into Darkseid's face, giving Clark the opening he needs to take the now stunned Darkseid to the sun, where Clark's power is soon increased enough, and Darkseid weakened enough, for Clark to physically beat Darkseid into submission. Clark then Boom Tubes them in front of the Source Wall and imprisons Darkseid there.
Most extreme, only seen once: Superman fighting Mongul, Jr.
Don't know the issue number. Only seen in posted scans, never in the actual book. Superman manages either to phase or move himself fast enough to slip Mongul's punches. He gradually leads them down to the South Pacific where the tropical sun can sustain his power beyond Mongul's. Mongul eventually wears himself out swinging and missing.
Superman comments on the "rope-a-dope" technique he used and knocks Mongul out.
Only time I've ever seen Superman "phase" in a fight against an opponent, assuming he actually did.
Seriously Blue.
Go get "Our Worlds at war" and stop using interviews that don't help your case.
Originally posted by carver9
Now this was a good post. You stayed away from lowballing and you provided some good evidence. I'll be back to crush this though. By the way, show me some scans of Superman defeated someone on WWH level.
You mean someone taking on a team with HELP?
Or someone taking on a team ALONE?
Originally posted by biensalsa
You mean someone taking on a team with HELP?Or someone taking on a team ALONE?
Show me some scans please.
I was thinking Doomsday making short work of Orion and MMH and two justice leagues (one JLA with A-listers) but you think Hulk is beyond Doomsday.
Almost killing WW in under a minute where WW can actually take on a team of A-listres of the JLA?
Solomon Grundy where Solomon can take on a team?
But for the purposes of this exercise
Defeating earth man that just defeated the whole legion and has the powers of all the legion?
Unless you think She Hulk, Thing Ares and Doc Samson are >>>>> than the Legion of Superheroes.
Ko ing this two is actaully pretty good
Isn't Lobo is a known team wrecker?
But I think you get the point
Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
There are plenty of examples of Superman beating more powerful people than WWH. Doomsday is one example. General Zod would be another. If you think Superman has never defeated anyone more powerful than the Hulk in his entire history, you're deluded beyond belief.
Lol...General Zod? General Zod isn't more powerful or formidable than Hulk. Get that crap out of here. Doomsday, beside DOS and Rex, two weaker versions of Doomsday, when did Superman beat him? Do you really believe Doomsday is more powerful than WBH? Get that crap out of here as well.
Originally posted by biensalsa
I was thinking Doomsday making short work of Orion and MMH and two justice leagues (one JLA with A-listers) but you think Hulk is beyond Doomsday.Almost killing WW in under a minute where WW can actually take on a team of A-listres of the JLA?
Solomon Grundy where Solomon can take on a team?
But for the purposes of this exercise
Defeating earth man that just defeated the whole legion and has the powers of all the legion?
Unless you think She Hulk, Thing Ares and Doc Samson are >>>>> than the Legion of Superheroes.
Ko ing this two is actaully pretty good
Isn't Lobo is a known team wrecker?
But I think you get the point
Uuuummm, Doomsday defeated Orion by throwing tanks at him...if you don't think Hulk can repeat that, then I don't know what to tell you. Hell, Grey Hulk could repeat that.
http://m1180.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/galanpics/dw_jla4.jpg.html?o=180
Show me the Grundy scans because Grundy powers fluctuates.
Do you have any latest showings of Superman before the reboot taking on someone in Hulks caliber and winning?
I'm just asking, not saying that he didn't or couldn't but scans would be nice since you did ask me what WWH accomplished.
Originally posted by carver9
Uuuummm, Doomsday defeated Orion by throwing tanks at him...if you don't think Hulk can repeat that, then I don't know what to tell you. Hell, Grey Hulk could repeat that.http://m1180.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/galanpics/dw_jla4.jpg.html?o=180
Show me the Grundy scans because Grundy powers fluctuates.
Do you have any latest showings of Superman before the reboot taking on someone in Hulks caliber and winning?
I'm just asking, not saying that he didn't or couldn't but scans would be nice since you did ask me what WWH accomplished.
That is why I did not showed DD, because I know you think DD is not on Hulk's level
I just showed you Earth man, who defeated the whole Legion Has Hulk ever done something like that?
You think Hulk is the only character with dynamic strength?
Superman chew those since Byrne era.
Look, I have not asked for scans because I do my homework and that is why I debate. If you really think WWH or WBH are on the levels you claim, no offense Carver but is probably because You are not doing your homework.
Taking into account F=ma this thread should be closed but for the purpose of this thread I think is a close fight, but SM could win more often than not.
Originally posted by carver9
It appears Superman does side step instead of phasing though. Both are impressive but I can see where blue is coming from since you do see images of Supes moving side to side.
I don't think this counts as "side stepping"
