At their top speed, sure - after all, that's where the infamous IMP comes from. At very high speeds, they can punch as hard as Superman.
As hard as Superman would punch when he's standing.
Now imagine his strength, allied to his speed (which has been shown to be high enough that there is some debate as to who is faster).
You posted the IMP scans, I saw. That's good. Now of course, to use your analogy of Black Flash against Wonder Woman - was BLack Flash using the IMP there? No, you can't say for certain, only that he was going very fast? Well, its kinda useless then, really, to use as an analogy.
Flash going all out can hit very hard. All Flashes can. But you seem to be arguing that a Flash just going fast (but not all out) can hit as hard as Supes when HE is going fast.
There is a reason, after all, that Flash has only ever used the IMP twice iirc. And the other time I remember, he hit with the mass of a white dwarf star.
So its not something he is able to pull out with just his 'normal' superspeed punches, is it?
What the Superman lowballers don't realize is that when they compare Flash to Supes, they're just speaking SPEED.
didja forget the quintillion ton force punch Supes packs for starters?
Originally posted by Diesldude
This man speaks the truth!
Have your truth-speaking man explain away the following.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931965
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931966
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931967
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931970
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931978
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Trade: JLA. New World Order
Source: JLA #3, Volume 1
Writer: Grant Morrison
Penciller: Howard Porter
Date: March 1997
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA_Vol_1_3
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So was Black Flash using that IMP in the example you posted then?Or was he just moving very fast?
What you need to do is show me Superman using IMP level punches in a series. The moon-splitting punch? Very good. But even Gray Hulk has taken a collision with an asteroid twice the size of Earth without being fazed, and World Breaker Hulk took a direct collision with another super-being so powerful that is annihilated a planet from residual shockwave, not even direct contact.
If you could show me Superman throwing effective haymakers at superspeed I might reconsider. Without it, I have to conclude World Breaker Hulk is on too high a level for Superman to reasonably be expected to take down in a first round encounter.
So you concede with the red herring, then?
I mean, you COULD argue that Black Flash was blitzing WW with a series of IMPs. I cannot argue 100% that he wasn't, although your subsequent posting of the New World Order storyline shows how Flash needs to have a bit of a run up (he actually laps Zum around the world). So, without the run up, doubtful he can perform an IMP.
Now on to your next point.
The thing is...not many people can stand up to an IMP. You proved it, with your scans of Zum (White Martians are pretty powerful). WW was knocked out by a powerful haymaker in Sacrifice, and her durability is pretty high (you have convinced me of this).
So to find an opponent who can stand up to a SERIES of IMPs? Very difficult. Even Captain Marvel has been two shotted by a blitzing Superman, Abhi has already shown this to you. And I'm sure you know how durable Marvel is.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
you COULD argue that Black Flash was blitzing WW with a series of IMPs. I cannot argue 100% that he wasn't, although your subsequent posting of the New World Order storyline shows how Flash needs to have a bit of a run up (he actually laps Zum around the world). So, without the run up, doubtful he can perform an IMP.
I'm not trying to argue that Black Flash was using infinite mass punches against Wonder Woman. Certainly I believe he is punching harder than a normal human is able, however. The Flashes DO exhibit what would be considered superhuman strength regardless of what you try to argue. How else could Flash pick up a metal pole weighing several hundred pounds and run with it easier than a man carrying a javelin?
How could the Flashes, even in tandem, force Superboy PRIME off of his feet? Comparing Black Flash blitzing Wondy to a normal human doesn't seem readily justifiable.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
without the run up, doubtful he can perform an IMP.
Don't get me wrong, I think it would take at least a LITTLE time and distance coverage for a Flash to get to IMP level, but I think you are mistaken if you believe it takes a full world lap to prepare it.
You forget that he had to chase after and overtake Zum before he could deliver that punch, Zum HIMSELF was circling the globe, they weren't just fighting standing still in a localized area.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
not many people can stand up to an IMP. You proved it, with your scans of Zum. White Martians are pretty powerful...
Indeed.
Grant Morrison, writer of that story (JLA New World Order), tells us through narration that, away from fire, White Martians are every bit the physical equal of Superman himself.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
WW was knocked out by a powerful haymaker in Sacrifice, and her durability is pretty high (you have convinced me of this).
Thanks for the compliment.
Almost any poster appreciates knowing their work gets looked at.
Incidentally, however, I do NOT consider the Sacrifice haymaker a speedblitz.
The dialogue is written, the artwork drawn, and Greg Rucka's 2005 interview conducted, as if Diana fully expected the ring she was amateurishly, open-handedly displaying at that moment to stop Superman in his tracks.
She was caught by surprise, not superior speed.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
to find an opponent who can stand up to a SERIES of IMPs? Very difficult. Even Captain Marvel has been two shotted by a blitzing Superman, Abhi has already shown this to you. And I'm sure you know how durable Marvel is.
Couple things.
1) To be honest, I actually do NOT know how durable Captain Marvel is.
I assume it is roughly Superman level, which is quite high, but I've seen Superman get knocked out on numerous occasions.
I presume Captain Marvel has his share of knockout losses as well, but that is about all I can conclude about him.
2) KMC has a LITERAL "Ignore" function. I used to think people were making it up when I heard it described on other boards, but it really exists, it really does block messages from posters on Ignore from appearing except as names, and Abhi has been on that list in my account for several months now. I typically only examine one of his posts when he appears in other threads and/or is responding to other posters. It's a VERY poor assumption to think I'll be looking at anything he puts up immediately following one of my posts except under the most special of conditions.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
to find an opponent who can stand up to a SERIES of IMPs? Very difficult.
Of similar difficulty is finding Superman delivering such a thing, which is exactly the point. It's not something he does.
In fact, unless we count him overcoming Luthor's armor in the Loeb arc before Supergirl's arrival, and the punchout he had with Kal-L that I see people scan every so often from some Infinite Crisis tie-in, I have NEVER seen him do such a thing.
Actually, I don't recall him doing this in the case of Luthor, but, in lieu of actually having the scene here, I'm willing to grant that, at the least he delivered some hard punches in a very short time frame for the sake of argument.
Ditto with the Kal-L encounter on Earth-2.
I don't see evidence that it was a speedier-than-normal engagement, but I'm willing to entertain the notion that it MIGHT have been.
On the other hand, regarding that E2 episode, I cannot forget that Supergirl and HER Earth-2 counterpart, Kal-L's cousin, had a similarly punchy meeting back in Supergirl #1.
Lots of things happened there that would lead readers to guess at what was going on with their respective strength, endurance, and invulnerability levels, too, things that call pre-reboot Superman's high performance into question.
But then, he doesn't do it because he is Superman, and he holds back a LOT. He says this many times.
In this thread, however, he has no Character-Induced Stupidity, so he will actually remember that he has his abilities. He's also not constrained by plot, so rather than draw a fight out over several pages, he can blitz (incidentally, although you likened the Saturnian moon to Gray Hulk and the Asteroid, don't forget Hulk was propelled towards it, and the asteroid was also hurtling towards Earth, whereas the moon was stationary).
But most importantly, he is bloodlusted. Whilst we have seen Hulk not holding back (HOTM), we haven't really seen the true extent of a bloodlusted, CISless Superman - because it would make for a very short, very boring comic.
Do you think incidentally that Flash could perform a series of IMPs? it may take him a full second to do it, or even two seconds - for him, those seconds may as well be years. I think he can. And if he can, Superman, who has comparable speed (the debate of who's faster is for another thread, I think) can also do it.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What the Superman lowballers don't realize is that when they compare Flash to Supes, they're just speaking SPEED.didja forget the quintillion ton force punch Supes packs for starters?
Have your truth-speaking man explain away the following.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931965
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931966
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931967
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931970
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13931978
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trade: JLA. New World Order
Source: JLA #3, Volume 1
Writer: Grant Morrison
Penciller: Howard Porter
Date: March 1997
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA_Vol_1_3
Sadly, I'm very busy at the moment, I have a lot of work to do and I'm usually finish late, but I just have to respond to Blue's constant Super hate, sorry dude you just come across like that.
That IMP is cool and everything, but this is done under the same writer, Superman did not need to IMP to KO a white martian, If superman had done that to the poor white I just wonder what will have happened to the white martian, Oh maybe PULVERIZATION???
You remember how easylii Superman ko a white martian? He did not need to go IMP like flash to do it.
I wonder why????
Also about WBH vs other versions of Hulk
Here, even the Carver acknowledges it as a good post.
"I have this idea, that young readers make such a big deal about WWH and WBH, that I decided to compare him with a hulk that almost achieved critical mass but it did not had Banner to control the anger.
Banerless Hulk
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk447_15b.jpg
WWH
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...WH03-007-08.jpg
For people to understand why am I using this particular Hulk is because this Hulk almost reached critical mass and was irradiating energy, pretty much the same way WBH did, but apparently unlike the new Hulk the energy Banerless Hulk irradiates actually disintegrates by touch.
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk447_06b.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk447_03b.jpg
The energy is so big that his body with out Banner has a hard time to control.
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk446_10a.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk446_10b.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk446_11b.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk446_16a.jpg
But on this irradiating stage He also defeats past enemies with ease
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk459_14b.jpg
Here is Samson talking about those energies
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...ereturn0210.jpg
This same Hulk is the one who took on The Thunderbolts by himself alone and with out help form the Warbound.
Now, lets really see what previous Hulk incarnations have achieved compared to this hulk.
Baby Hulk and Banerless Hulk is the horses I put my money on.
So lets see
Baby Hulk one shooting Ares? Pretty much
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...0WBH/ex-044.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...0WBH/ex-045.jpg
Baby Hulk vs Stranger (in WWH, Stranger realizes that Zoom is a bigger threat than Hulk and lets himself to be defeated by Hulk)
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk299_17a.jpg
Baby Hulk ALONE vs team
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk300_15a.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk300_15b.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk300_17a.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk300_17b.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk300_18a.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk300_18b.jpg
VS THE FF? (This is not baby Hulk nor Banerless Hulk)
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...BH/FF535_24.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...icFour12-20.jpg
WWH defeating Ghost Rider? Not really
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/.../GR_13_0024.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...3_0025-0026.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/.../GR_13_0027.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/.../GR_13_0029.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/.../GR_13_0031.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/.../GR_13_0032.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/.../GR_13_0033.jpg
And Doc Samson? Come on, he often looses in a humiliating way vs Hulk
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk141_15a.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk193_17a.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk229_17b.jpg
And defeating Juggernaut???
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/..._3_DCP_0027.jpg
Not really, this is how it actually looks like defeating Juggernaut
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk457_06a.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...Hulk457_07a.jpg
BTW, That is Banerless Hulk
Oh and defeating a Superman clone like WWH did?
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/...ANN1997_17a.jpg
That is also Banerless Hulk, you know the one who irradiates disintegrating energy.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
By the way, that Skrull Clone of Black Bolt was just as powerful...hell, he had fts that trumped the real deal like scream so hard that he broke through the fabric of time. WWH withstood his full scream...TWICE.
Black Bolt impersonator having the same power as the real Black Bolt?
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/..._v1_250_p35.jpg
I won't say that WBH or WWH are not strong, but to think that they are millions of times more powerful than previous Hulk incarnations is just silly, IMO. Hulk with the right amount of anger has always being capable of destroying a planet, difference now, is that on his critical mass stage Banner is there to control the energy where previous Hulk's didn't have that. "
That post was already posted a while ago I just saved it for future reference, gotta go for now.
So now superman can't do an IMP? I guess this is just a random punch, then
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/JLAv4030a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/JLAv4030b.jpg
The lengths some people go!
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
he doesn't do it because he is Superman, and he holds back a LOT. He says this many times.
It is said that WorldBreaker Hulk holds back a lot many times, too, D.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In this thread, however, [Superman] has no Character-Induced Stupidity, so he will actually remember that he has his abilities.
This cuts both ways. World Breaker Hulk, with CIS on, has demonstrable concern for bystanders that limits the power he expresses.
Carver had this part perfectly right.
It squares with Hulk telling his son and allies that they "will ruin everything" in his battle against Zeus.
It squares with Hulk gleefully battling "King Kong" versions of Wendigo and Bi-Beast only AFTER being told the floating city they are in has been evacuated.
And, of course, it squares with the planet destroying collision he has with "Super" Red She-Hulk after being assured the only residents of Dark Dimension are demons or murderous creatures, that Betty herself is now as strong and invulnerable as him, and/or that the wishing well will protect or restore life to allies like Amadeus Cho.
World Breaker Hulk, in short, shows the uber-level of power when he knows it is okay to cut loose, but this is precisely what you are granting when you say CIS is off for BOTH characters.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa,Please check your links.
Every last one that I clicked on returns a "page not found" error.
Originally posted by Cogito
^ All your links are broken
Sorry 😄
This should work.
This is the link to the original post, the links work in there.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=566770&pagenumber=18#post13918192
page 18 of this same thread
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
although you likened the Saturnian moon to Gray Hulk and the Asteroid, don't forget Hulk was propelled towards it, and the asteroid was also hurtling towards Earth, whereas the moon was stationary.
Given that I mentioned this as proof that even Hulks far, far lesser than World Breaker Hulk can endure staggeringly large scale collisions without overmuch harm, why do you think this point makes much of a difference? If anything, the fact that his target, of a scale Gray Hulk was unused to, was moving toward him at indeterminate speed, makes the feat MORE impressive as a durability display, not less.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
[Superman is] also not constrained by plot, so rather than draw a fight out over several pages, he can blitz.
Likewise, this also means that Hulk delivering a one-punch knockout, same as Konvickt did in Superman writer Kurt Busiek's series did, is now an option.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Whilst we have seen Hulk not holding back (HOTM), we haven't really seen the true extent of a bloodlusted, CISless Superman - because it would make for a very short, very boring comic.
But we HAVE seen Superman like that. Sacrifice was one such instance, as you yourself pointed out. Our Worlds at War was another.
Neither one of those made, according to most fans, for a very short boring story. Because your "overrun" scenario only works when "serious" Superman is not balanced by a character who has what it takes to meet his challenge. In Sacrifice, even though he was suncharged and murderously enraged, that was Wonder Woman.
In Our Worlds at War, though he apparently handled quite a few probes, he had to go above and beyond to take out Imperiex himself.
So I think it would be with World Breaker Hulk as we've seen him.
So, too, does Greg Pak himself, and I posted a quote of him saying as much in an interview. So, too, do a lot of other comicbook fans, far more than are participating in this particular thread.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Do you think incidentally that Flash could perform a series of IMPs?
I wouldn't rule out the possibility. Wally implies that he could hit Zum several times but that once ought to do it during that first near-infinite mass punch delivery, after all.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman ... has comparable speed ...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13955966
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13955967
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Source: Flash. Rebirth #3, Volume 1
Writer: Geoff Johns
Penciller: Ethan Van Sciver
Date: August 2009
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Flash:_Rebirth_Vol_1_3
