Delta1938
True King of House of El
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Whilst we have seen Hulk not holding back (HOTM), we haven't really seen the true extent of a bloodlusted, CISless Superman - because it would make for a very short, very boring comic.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Given that I mentioned this as proof that even Hulks far, far lesser than World Breaker Hulk can endure staggeringly large scale collisions without overmuch harm, why do you think this point makes much of a difference? If anything, the fact that his target, of a scale Gray Hulk was unused to, was moving toward him at indeterminate speed, makes the feat MORE impressive as a durability display, not less.
Considering it was made-up of pure energy, it's really inaccurate to compare gray Hulk's asteroid to Superman's shadow moon against Superman.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Likewise, this also means that Hulk delivering a one-punch knockout, same as Konvickt did in Superman writer Kurt Busiek's series did, is now an option.
Superman was stunned, not KOed. He recovered on his own in just panels in the next issue. Him being "one-shot" at the end of the issue was for shock value. But something you're either incapable of comprehending, or blatantly and intently ignoring to further your Superman Hate crusade, is Character-Induced Stupidity is off for both characters. What does this do for Hulk? Lets him go all-out. What does this do for Superman? Not only does he not have to hold back, but oh yeah he can fight intelligently. How exactly can Hulk react to Superman speed-blitzing when those who have super speed themselves were still blitzed by him?
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20speed/Speed%20Blitzes%20And%20Equivalents/Speed%20Blitzes/Blitzes%20Cyborg-Superman/
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/CSA%20Trinity/
Superman doesn't even have to go all-out exploiting his speed, just stick and move, while dodging Hulk's attacks like this.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Mongul/Mongul%20II/MOS%20131/?action=view¤t=manofsteel131p12.jpg
Or since we're arguing Character-Induced Stupidity is off, we can make arguments of how WE would fight with his powers, since there's nothing making him forget powers. Hypothetically, Superman could just vibrate to phase and avoid Hulk's attack, strike, phase, strike, ect. In all reality, CIS being off means you can't use a single example of Superman being KOed unless he was speed-blitzing, because CSI being off means there's no reason to not argue he blitzes every time. So you have no way of arguing Hulk could lay a hand on him, since I provided two examples of Superman successfully blitzing those who do have super speed.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
But we HAVE seen Superman like that. Sacrifice was one such instance, as you yourself pointed out. Our Worlds at War was another.Neither one of those made, according to most fans, for a very short boring story. Because [B]your "overrun" scenario only works when "serious" Superman is not balanced by a character who has what it takes to meet his challenge
. In Sacrifice, even though he was suncharged and murderously enraged, that was Wonder Woman.
In Our Worlds at War, though he apparently handled quite a few probes, he had to go above and beyond to take out Imperiex himself.
So I think it would be with World Breaker Hulk as we've seen him.
So, too, does Greg Pak himself, and I posted a quote of him saying as much in an interview. So, too, do a lot of other comicbook fans, far more than are participating in this particular thread. [/B]
Wrong. Superman was not going all-out.
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/QuanchIsWrong.jpg
He wanted Doomsday to suffer first. This has been brought against you, and you've tried to dismiss it. Too bad it was also written by Rucka. I believe you tried to say it "doesn't count" because the interview you read was before the issue was released, and it didn't have any mention about Superman not going completely all-out. Oh, I dunno, maybe Rucka didn't want to spoil things? But the fact is, we have canon proof that Superman wasn't quite going all-out in the SACRIFICE fight, AND it was written by the same writer, so you can't argue it went against the writer's intent.
Also, if someone says CIS is off, it's a give-in that PIS is off. And that issue was filled with PIS by it's very definition. Superman was fighting like an idiot due to rage and grief. You cannot claim Superman was fighting all-out, nor intelligently in the SACRIFICE fight. And you make a big deal like he was super-charged by the Sun. You even tried arguing that he only pulled off that punch because he was Sun-Amped. I proved he'd previously pulled-off a MORE IMPRESSIVE feat, WHILE WEAKENED. Something you failed to acknowledge. Oh yes, and SACRIFICE isn't a good example to use against Superman here(since we're arguing CIS being off) since he still overwhelmed Wonder Woman's ability to react at the beginning, and Diana is far, far faster than Hulk.
As for your arguments about OUR WORLDS AT WAR, what does him having to be boosted against Imperiex Prime prove? Keith is right that it's ridiculous you bring this up. Imperiex Prime wielded the "power of the Big Bang" or something like that. He consumed entire galaxies. His Probes paled compared to him and they were team-wreckers. WB Hulk would do, what again? Not to mention CIS was on there, too.
And this is the closest thing we've seen to an all-out, CIS-less Superman.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/S-B%2015%20VS%20Freedom%20Fights%20Plus%20WW/
And don't bother arguing the "context." Yeah, time was being messed with. But if anything, this actually would make it a LESS powerful Superman than the one being argued here, merely not holding back. Oh, and I dunno how powerful Uncle Sam is, but I do know he does have superhuman strength and DURABILITY. And in that comic he had what would've been Hal Jordan's Power Ring. Which has auto-protection against at least Planet-Busting force, something that killed Hulk.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Captain%20Nazi%20exposure/COSMIC%20ODYSSEY/
You might try and argue that the planet wasn't fully destroyed by the blast, and it was less impressive than what killed Hulk. An irrelevant argument, since A: I don't know if this is even the limit of what the Power Ring can protect from with it's auto-protect, B: if Superman's speed-blitzing, he can deliver a lot more than one punch, and C: like I pointed-out before, if Superman's power levels were different than the "normal" timeline, he would've been WEAKER than the one being argued here.
