Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I didn't find the writing in the Ultron future to be poor, merely I found it to be poor for reasons I rather describe differently for the sake of the argument.
Fixed.
There are so many time travel stories around already that I don't see this one as any less cliched to be honest, my favorite comic villain is a time traveller awesr
Originally posted by Bentley
Fixed.There are so many time travel stories around already that I don't see this one as any less cliched to be honest, my favorite comic villain is a time traveller awesr
Did you write your rework of my quote in French then pop it into google translate? It doesn't make much sense...
Time travel is merely part of a larger story about the implications of taking a life of good man to save the lives of billions. The original premise of AoU is a basic robot uprising fodder that offers nothing say about anything. Most time travel stories involve a character from an unknown future coming back to the 616 present to warn about a possible future that we know will never happen, as such the writer doesn't usually get to play with the ramifications and ethical implications of the time travel because as far as we are concern things are playing out they way they are supposed to in the first place. This AoU and in some ways the current arc in Remender's Uncanny Avengers are different. Comics are largely - especially the super hero genre - character driven narratives, as opposed to plot driven. The plot should be used as a vehicle to make a commentary on one or several characters, which is what this story is doing. It's just a shame that Bendis can't do subtle, a few minor changes resulting from Pym's death would have made for a better story instead of a "look at this craaaaaaaaaaaaazy alternate future with Doom Lokis and Fury Cap and Cableclops ooooooooooo!!!!"
Well, the problem with this (barring Bendis being Bendis) is that the Age of Ultron has been hinted at for years now, ever since Heroic Age. And now that we get to the event, it's barely even about him. That's pretty shitty, regardless of the quality of writing (which is subjective). If anything, seems like Bendis is living out his fantasy of a world without Pym for a little bit.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Time travel is merely part of a larger story about the implications of taking a life of good man to save the lives of billions.
The "larger story" you're talking about its so codified by the superhero genre that it makes little sense if at all regarding any actual implications that such a dilemma might have. I agree that the time travel part of the story it's downplayed for the sake of the plot, but it is also because any good time travel story pisses on the concept as you present it. The implications of removing such a large piece of a puzzle are nonsensical, it's pretty much just a fantasy "what would happen if Pym was never born" chapter of some sitcom.
The fact that Pym died, that he was a good or a mediocre man or that Ultron was unstoppable according to the plot is incidental at best.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Most time travel stories involve a character from an unknown future coming back to the 616 present to warn about a possible future that we know will never happen
A good chunk of the stories are about a present character arriving to a catastrophic future and then tried to change the past without much success. Which is the setting of this very story.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
as such the writer doesn't usually get to play with the ramifications and ethical implications of the time travel because as far as we are concern things are playing out they way they are supposed to in the first place.
As far as "let's go back to the past and change history" stories goes, this one isn't doing either an excellent or a terriblejob at portraying any innovative ethical conflicts regarding changing history. This is as standard as it gets.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
This AoU and in some ways the current arc in Remender's Uncanny Avengers are different. Comics are largely - especially the super hero genre - character driven narratives, as opposed to plot driven. The plot should be used as a vehicle to make a commentary on one or several characters, which is what this story is doing.
Actually that's a pretty common happening with timetravel stories because the plot has to be enhanced to make sense of all the time-mess that happens at any given time. As I said, this is as average as it comes as far as this kind of narrative goes.
The fact that this event was marketed as an event about Ultron is more puzzling and disappointing than actually a flaw in the story. I think there are several actual flaws on it, but if you're enjoying it there is no reason for me to rain in your parade.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It's just a shame that Bendis can't do subtle, a few minor changes resulting from Pym's death would have made for a better story instead of a "look at this craaaaaaaaaaaaazy alternate future with Doom Lokis and Fury Cap and Cableclops ooooooooooo!!!!"
I agree, the throwaway futures don't look half decent. As far as alternate settings born to be retconned goes, I think at least House of M had some structure to it.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm more interested in this story than a bunch of tired heroes fighting robots in an irrelevant alternate timeline.
What I find frustrating about the whole thing is that this could've proposed a new kind of Ultron story to be told from a renewed point of view. Instead it was a forced plot to kill Pym for whatever reason. I guess Bendis wanted to address the Pym-inventing-Ultron in his own way and that's how I see it. But his choice of not featuring either Ultron nor Pym on that path seems counter-intuitive.
Originally posted by Bentley
The "larger story" you're talking about its so codified by the superhero genre that it makes little sense if at all regarding any actual implications that such a dilemma might have. I agree that the time travel part of the story it's downplayed for the sake of the plot, but it is also because any good time travel story pisses on the concept as you present it. The implications of removing such a large piece of a puzzle are nonsensical, it's pretty much just a fantasy "what would happen if Pym was never born" chapter of some sitcom.The fact that Pym died, that he was a good or a mediocre man or that Ultron was unstoppable according to the plot is incidental at best.
A good chunk of the stories are about a present character arriving to a catastrophic future and then tried to change the past without much success. Which is the setting of this very story.
As far as "let's go back to the past and change history" stories goes, this one isn't doing either an excellent or a terriblejob at portraying any innovative ethical conflicts regarding changing history. This is as standard as it gets.
Actually that's a pretty common happening with timetravel stories because the plot has to be enhanced to make sense of all the time-mess that happens at any given time. As I said, this is as average as it comes as far as this kind of narrative goes.
The fact that this event was marketed as an event about Ultron is more puzzling and disappointing than actually a flaw in the story. I think there are several actual flaws on it, but if you're enjoying it there is no reason for me to rain in your parade.
I agree, the throwaway futures don't look half decent. As far as alternate settings born to be retconned goes, I think at least House of M had some structure to it.
Fair enough, I mean it's obviously not unadulterated literary genius. We've seen this type of story executed far better in other mediums, but in terms of capes and tights comics, particularly with in the context of the offerings the big two have been delivering for their summer events for the past decade, this as above and beyond what I was expecting when AoU was presented. It's not going to win an Eisner, but I was expecting shit, and this is more thought provoking and interesting than I ever would have thought when the promos were released.
Originally posted by Bentley
What I find frustrating about the whole thing is that this could've proposed a new kind of Ultron story to be told from a renewed point of view. Instead it was a forced plot to kill Pym for whatever reason. I guess Bendis wanted to address the Pym-inventing-Ultron in his own way and that's how I see it. But his choice of not featuring either Ultron nor Pym on that path seems counter-intuitive.
What's left to be said about Ultron though? He is a angry robot that wants to destroy the human race and has daddy issues. There isn't anything there that is going to lead to any semblance of character arc for anyway. I mean I guess Pym could have came to the realization that making Ultron was a mistake and knowing even he wouldn't have been able to persuade himself from making Ultron, he went back and time and killed himself. I guess that would have been rad. Still I don't see the concept of UoA as it was pitch being any thing more than Siege or Secret Invasion, but with Robots... which makes it even less personal than those crappy events. I mean... were you really excited for by the pitch of AoU? Did that sound like it was going to be anything more than rock'em sock'em Ultrons?
I'm sure Wolverine or Sue will go back and stop Wolverine from killing Pym before this event ends, because Pym is alive when all is said and done and something needs to reset the timeline back to default. /shrug
What's left to be said about Ultron though? He is a angry robot that wants to destroy the human race and has daddy issues. There isn't anything there that is going to lead to any semblance of character arc for anyway. I mean I guess Pym could have came to the realization that making Ultron was a mistake and knowing even he wouldn't have been able to persuade himself from making Ultron, he went back and time and killed himself. I guess that would have been rad. Still I don't see the concept of UoA as it was pitch being any thing more than Siege or Secret Invasion, but with Robots... which makes it even less personal than those crappy events. I mean... were you really excited for by the pitch of AoU? Did that sound like it was going to be anything more than rock'em sock'em Ultrons?I'm sure Wolverine or Sue will go back and stop Wolverine from killing Pym before this event ends, because Pym is alive when all is said and done and something needs to reset the timeline back to default. /shrug
the Pym killing Pym idea isn't a bad one, would of liked to see that.
Depending on how the story was written Ultron could reach another stage in his daddy issues and ultimately develop conflicting feelings/perspectives. It would be a jump off from his established history but as long as it was handled right and subtle and not as some sudden jump from genocidal robot to conflicted child it would be cool. Maybe only Pym being aware if the change as Ultron picks up and leaves despite having the upper hand. Could even lead into a ultron focused mini series of some kind that could be fuel to and cross over with Pym and his A.I. avengers.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Fair enough, I mean it's obviously not unadulterated literary genius. We've seen this type of story executed far better in other mediums, but in terms of capes and tights comics, particularly with in the context of the offerings the big two have been delivering for their summer events for the past decade, this as above and beyond what I was expecting when AoU was presented. It's not going to win an Eisner, but I was expecting shit, and this is more thought provoking and interesting than I ever would have thought when the promos were released.
Yes, compared to other events we've seen recently the timetravel story isn't really that bad, some of the recent events have much inferior concepts to begin with. I sort of wonder what was the necessity of making an event out of it, this story arc could've been a pretty focused one inside an Avengers book. But it was probably intended to be that way and editorial mandate changed it.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What's left to be said about Ultron though? He is a angry robot that wants to destroy the human race and has daddy issues. There isn't anything there that is going to lead to any semblance of character arc for anyway.
I do think most Ultron arcs introduce new bits of motivation to the character, the last two times he appeared he was persuaded not to wage war on humanity, and one of those times he was bluffed. During Annihilation Conquest he realized that destroying organics wasn't really his full on motivation, he wanted perfection and biology could be perfect, he strived to get that. These aren't huge improvements and have happened over the years, but they are at least an attempt to bring depth to a character that as you stated, has a history of being one-notish.
Heck, even the Age of Ultron arc at the begining of Avengers had some more character developpement. Ultron shut himself off, to save the universe, sure, but why should Ultron care about the universe? I think that there is some similarity between Ultron giving up its life to save the universe and Pym dying to stop Ultron. I doubt Bendis fully understood what he made Ultron do, but it was a novelty for the character nevertheless.
I've read all of Ultron's history and I agree most of his arcs are just "there", it needs as much help as it can get and this event isn't doing it any favors. Granted, there was no need of improving the character, but presenting it massively as a one-note character won't do him any favors.
http://www.newsarama.com/17848-marvel-teases-artist-studded-age-of-ultron-finale.html
huh, would you look at that. Thor's going to make an appearance at least.
Guess you haven't seen the news
GAIMAN RETURNS TO MARVEL, BRINGS "SPAWN'S" ANGELA
writer will re-enter the Marvel Universe with a collaboration on the final issue of "Age of Ultron" with writer Brian Michael Bendis before co-writing "Guardians of the Galaxy" #5.
Originally posted by KazenjiSo... Random. 😕
Guess you haven't seen the newsGAIMAN RETURNS TO MARVEL, BRINGS "SPAWN'S" ANGELA
writer will re-enter the Marvel Universe with a collaboration on the final issue of "Age of Ultron" with writer Brian Michael Bendis before co-writing "Guardians of the Galaxy" #5.