Franklin Richards VS Dreaming Celestial

Originally posted by zopzop
Hence why I call Hickman a hack. Think about the stupidity of that "hyperspace weakness" for a bit. Elite Skyfathers or Thor's (most powerful?) Godblast did no lasting (or even meaningful) damage to a Celestial. Yet IW's force fields (and by definition ANY being that can duplicate her powers) or Reed's tech is capable of owning a Celestial?

Phuck the Fantastic Four and the garbage that comes out of that comic.

The "hyperspace weakness" you're referring to was, to my knowledge, initially conceived by Tom DeFalco, incidentally, the same guy responsible for The Mighty Thor arc in which the Odinson utterly failed to take down a Celestial with his godblast. That said, DeFalco deserves most of the blame in my opinion -- if anything, for being so inconsistent.

Hickman, on the other hand, was just respecting continuity -- even if it originated with the aforementioned DeFalco.

That hyperspace weakness is bullshit, any skyfather level character and above with decent energy manipulation/ reality manipulation should be able to duplicate sues power . Especially beings up the powerscale like kubic and galactus.

That would mean anyone skyfather and above can own the celestials...

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
That hyperspace weakness is bullshit, any skyfather level character and above with decent energy manipulation/ reality manipulation should be able to duplicate sues power . Especially beings up the powerscale like kubic and galactus.

That would mean anyone skyfather and above can own the celestials...

😱

Originally posted by zopzop
Skyfather? Try low herald. Super Skrull has all the FFs powers, so he can do it too. In fact, the Skrulls can make a legion of FF based Super Skrulls and wipe out the entire Celestial race!

😱

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And this was a Franklin Richards inexperienced in the usage of his powers . I am not saying that , that scan is a blanket proof of Franklin>Tiamut , just that it implies as such .

True it implies that, but the scan is also what 10-20 years old, alot can happen. Also who is it that is talking?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
That hyperspace weakness is bullshit, any skyfather level character and above with decent energy manipulation/ reality manipulation should be able to duplicate sues power . Especially beings up the powerscale like kubic and galactus.

That would mean anyone skyfather and above can own the celestials...

Originally posted by zopzop
Skyfather? Try low herald. Super Skrull has all the FFs powers, so he can do it too. In fact, the Skrulls can make a legion of FF based Super Skrulls and wipe out the entire Celestial race!

Either way, I'd like to remind the low-ballers of this:

"You AND YOU ALONE can reach the proper harmonic chord to rupture this alien shell!"

Per Nathaniel (the dude who has spent his life traveling throughout the multiverse/time), Sue was the only being capable of using her Hyperspace energies in such a way... Smh at the notion that heralds/skyfathers can whimsically duplicate this feat.

Originally posted by Galan007
Show me some instances of characters (aside from Sue and Hyperstorm) tapping/manifesting energy directly from Hyperspace. You act like it's an easy feat for heralds/skyfathers to duplicate--so let's see some proof. Conversely, it was made quite clear that the ability to use Hyperspace energies in the manner Sue did was extremely unique/unusual--exclusive to her, really.

I doubt very much that Super-Skrull leeches his power directly from Hyperspace.

Either way, I'd like to remind the low-ballers of this:

"You AND YOU ALONE can reach the proper harmonic chord to rupture this alien shell!"

Per Nathaniel (the dude who has spent his life traveling throughout the multiverse/time), Sue was the only being capable of using her Hyperspace energies in such a way... Smh at the notion that heralds/skyfathers can whimsically duplicate this feat.

You realize that Nathaniel was (in all probability) talking about of all people PRESENT, only Sue had the power to do what she did when that scene took place. How many other hyperspace wielders were there?

Like I said don't try to save Defalco and Hickman from their own stupidity, it won't work.

Originally posted by Utrigita
True it implies that, but the scan is also what 10-20 years old, alot can happen. Also who is it that is talking?

I don't really remember , but I think its either the narrative or Doom . If it turns out that it was Doom , then that scan can be dismissed as hyperbole , as that guy was confident that Franklin's power is greater than that of Celestials themselves .

Originally posted by Utrigita
A Tiamut that was still imprisoned and weakened inside his prison IIRC.

Originally posted by zopzop
He does. That's what his invisible force fields are. Hyperspace constructs like the IWs.

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize that Nathaniel was (in all probability) talking about of all people PRESENT, only Sue had the power to do what she did when that scene took place. How many other hyperspace wielders were there?

If approximating Hyperspace energy, and using said energy to create the proper harmonic chord required to destroy a Celestial, was as easy as you believe, surely the Watchers would have been able to do so. Tbh, your low-balling astounds.

Originally posted by Galan007
So it was stated on panel that Skrull's IW powers also leech energy directly from Hyperspace? Scans please.

There were Watchers present, dude. Hundreds of them--possibly thousands. They were so powerful that Exitar himself had spent "SEVERAL THOUSAND" years gathering energy (ie. amping himself), just so he could become powerful enough to destroy them. Hell, the Watcher called 'The One' was so powerful that his mere presence within reality was destroying it... Yet none of them were capable of duplicating Sue's feat.

If approximating Hyperspace energy, and using said energy to create the proper harmonic chord required to destroy a Celestial, was as easy as you believe, surely the Watchers would have been able to do so. Tbh, your low-balling astounds.

Originally posted by zopzop
Stop being an annoying douche. His invisible FF constructs are just that, hyperspace constructs. WTF else would they be? How about this, do YOU have proof they aren't?

Your inability to prove a point doesn't warrant childish name-calling, though.

Originally posted by zopzop
Watchers, by the VERY NATURE OF THEIR OATH, watch and do not interfere. Hell they didn't even interfere when Maelstroms' black hole was destroying the universe or when Thanos had the IG.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't need to prove a negative. You're so sure Skrull leeches energy from Hyperspace? Prove it. Imo, it's no different than Amazo--he can copy Flash's speed, but that doesn't mean he taps into the speed force every time he runs. He can duplicate Firestorm's powers, but that doesn't mean he taps into the Matrix when he transmutes shit. Etc.

Your inability to prove a point doesn't warrant childish name-calling, though.

Amazo has nothing to do with this since he wasn't SPECIFICALLY engineered to duplicate the FFs powers.

Why are you bringing up other stories? Watchers have gotten involved in the affairs of others several times in the past--and their battle with the Celestials was certainly no exception. It was stated that this particular battle between the Watchers and Celestials was a "cosmic war". It was stated that the army of Watchers were "facing off" against the Celestials. The F4 stated that they stumbled into a "major conflict". In that very same issue, Uatu also killed Aron. Clearly they had every intention of battling the Celestials (and had been doing so), until a drastically amped Exitar arrived and KO'd The One (the most powerful Watcher.)

Originally posted by zopzop
Genius, the explanation for where IW's power comes from happened decades after her initial appearance. Defalco just pulled that hyperspace crap out of his ass. In his first appearance the Super Skrull was said to be able to duplicate the FFs powers. Back then there was no hyperspace origin crap for her power. Unless there's been a retcon, Super Skrull is still duplicating her invisible constructs which are now said to be hyperspace constructs.

Again, show me proof that Skrull leeches his powers directly from Hyperspace, and not from some other source.

Originally posted by zopzop
Amazo has nothing to do with this since he wasn't SPECIFICALLY engineered to duplicate the FFs powers.

Originally posted by zopzop
Bro, IW herself admitted that Uatu used her in their fight vs the Celestials. The Watchers took no direct action, as always, and simply manipulated IW into doing their dirty work for them. If they wanted to, I'm sure they could have duplicated her invisible force fields and owned the Celestials.

I don't like or agree with the Hyperspace weakness, but stating that Heralds/Skyfathers can duplicate IW's feat is laughable, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're so sure Skrull leeches energy from Hyperspace? Prove it. Imo, it's no different than Amazo--he can copy Flash's speed, but that doesn't mean he taps into the speed force every time he runs. He can duplicate Firestorm's powers, but that doesn't mean he taps into the Matrix when he transmutes shit. Etc.

👆 This .

Just because Superskrull can duplicate the FF's powers , doesn't necessarily mean that they are of the exact same fundamental nature as the original are .

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm a genius? Thank you for your kind words. 🙂

Again, show me proof that Skrull leeches his powers directly from Hyperspace, and not from some other source.

Amazo was created by Ivo SPECIFICALLY to duplicate the powers of DC's heroes--some of whom (ie. Flash and Firestorm) gain their powers from esoteric/other-dimensional sources--sources of which Amazo does not tap into when he approximates their powers (this has been stated on panel.) Thus the analogy I used is perfectly fitting.

You've just proven my point. The Watchers used IW because they knew that only SHE had the ability to defeat Exitar--a task none of them were capable of, despite their enormous power. Easy-peasy. 🙂

I don't like or agree with the Hyperspace weakness, but stating that Heralds/Skyfathers can duplicate IW's feat is laughable.

If they wanted to, they could have killed the Celestials by exploiting their hyperspace weakness.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
👆 This .

Just because Superskrull can duplicate the FF's powers , doesn't necessarily mean that they are of the exact same fundamental nature as the original are .

The hyperspace crap came DECADES later. So unless something changed with Super Skrull he's duplicating her hyperspace powers.

Originally posted by zopzop
Amazo != Super Skrull or the Skrull tech and research that went into creating Super Skrull. Super Skrull was designed to duplicate the powers of FOUR SPECIFIC HEROES. During that time, there was no mention of where the FFs powers come from aside from being the byproduct of Cosmic Rays. That's it. Super Skrull duplicated their powers (by being bombarded by Cosmic Rays from a Skrull satellite). DECADES later some moron went into more detail as to the nature of IW's ff's. Unless something changed with Super Skrull, he's still doing what he's doing, duplicating their powers.

The Amazo analogy fits so perfectly that it's ridiculous.

Originally posted by zopzop
Jesus Christ you are slow. They manipulated her because they DO NOT ACT directly AT ALL. They didn't act when Maelstrom was going to destroy the universe and their race. They didn't act when Thanos got the IG (Warlock even lamented this). They do not act directly because of their oath.

If they wanted to, they could have killed the Celestials by exploiting their hyperspace weakness.

The Watcher's WERE acting. You must have ignored/missed the multiple statements from the issue I posted above. You're also assuming the Watchers could have duplicated the Hyperspace weakness, despite Nathaniel flat-out stating that Sue was the ONLY being capable of preforming this feat.

Good lord, you're falling apart.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't like or agree with the Hyperspace weakness, but stating that Heralds/Skyfathers can duplicate IW's feat is laughable, imo.

That too is true . Franklin has a hereditary connection with IW , along with his vast reality manipulation powers , he could just have simply duplicated his mother's ability right down to the most specific detail , and then amped this ability to a much larger scale . This way he could have finished of the Mad Celestials in less than 5 panels .
The fact that he didn't even attempt to try such a strategy , clearly indicates that even universal gods can't duplicate her powers to the most fundamental level(i.e that specific hyperspatial harmonic chord which breaks Celestial armor) .

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize that he was powered by Cosmic Rays sent from a Skrull satellite. Duplicating how the FF got their powers, from............wait for it.......................Cosmic rays.

The hyperspace crap came DECADES later. So unless something changed with Super Skrull he's duplicating her hyperspace powers.

On what basis do you assume that the hyperspace explanation should automatically extend to SS as well ? The hyperspace explanation , as you yourself have said , came decades later , however not once was this explanation extended to Superskrull's abilities . Unless and until you can provide a scan or issue which states otherwise . Can you ?

Burden of proof is on you .