Mara Jade vs Sith Emperor

Sith Emperor is a threat to entire galaxy. Mara fears for safety and future well being of her son. Luke is reluctant to take imidiate action due to conflicting emotions. She makes full preparation both combat wise and knowledge wise. She infiltrates Vitiate's citadel. Sneaks up on throne entrance guards and incapatitates them. Knowing about Vitiate's dominating powers she puts her mental defenses on and enters the throne room. Vitiate aware of her presense waited for her.
FIGHT!

Jacen may have won in by whack means, but if he takes her and she was taxed against Lumiya there's no way she wins this. The only reason I think she would have gotten Palp was that she was his Hand and could get close without being suspected until it was too late.

She goes down hard, albeit in a fight that would have been worthy of her death.

It's not about Palp. Sith Emperor is Vitiate from TOR game, although, similar to Palp in capabilities but with no lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate aware of her presense waited for her.

Spite.

I'd be hesitant to back anyone beating a fully prepared Emperor.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's not about Palp. Sith Emperor is Vitiate from TOR game, although, similar to Palp in capabilities but with no lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
I was saying that she couldn't have even taken Palpatine outright, nor the Sith Emperor from the game.

*sighs* I don't recall saying that she fought him. I mean that she stated that there were many times she thought she should have killed him off because of her growing awareness of his tyranny, something that she could have accomplished because of her position as his Hand, though it seems unlikely that she could have managed to do so in outright combat. She did not have the capabilities to kill Palpatine in saber and Force battles, nor could she take the Sith Emperor. Hope that's clear enough.

Her only shot would be if she was given the chance to assassinate (since, y'know, she's a trained assassin jedi).

I am not surprised that people tend to underestimate Mara Jade. In Mara vs Palpatine thread some people were so biased that assumed Palpatine would easily handle her with TK or lightning, or even speed blitzed her.

But few people know or remember that in her early career, when she just met Luke and wanted to kill him, she faced an extrimely powerful Force user very similar to Palpatine and Vitiate and at that point her power and Force knowledge was very inferior comparing to her later years. His name is Joruus C'baot.

Here is example of C'baot's lightning:
"Luke leaped toward her. C'baoth's outstretched hand erupted into a brilliant blaze of blue-white lightning.

The blast caught Mara square in the chest, throwing her backward to slam into the guardrail behind her. "Stop it!" Luke shouted, getting in front of her and igniting his lightsaber. C'baoth ignored him, firing a second burst. Luke caught most of it on his lightsaber blade, grimacing as the part he missed jolted through his muscles. C'baoth fired a third burst, and a fourth, and a fifth—

And then, abruptly, he lowered his hands."
It's not a first time Luke blocked lightning and still he couldn't block it completly as part of it went through.
Mara had only very short exposure to it and here are consequences:
"She was still pretty much on her feet, clutching the guardrail for support. Her eyes were open but not fully aware, her breath making little moaning sounds as she exhaled between clenched teeth. Laying his free hand on her shoulder, wincing at the stink of ozone, Luke began a quick probe of her injuries.
...
None of her burns seemed too bad, but her muscles were still twitching uncontrollably. Reaching out with the Force, he tried to draw away some of the pain."

Luke after some fight with his clone:
"He raised his eyes. Mara was still leaning against the guardrail. Possibly not fully conscious. Certainly in no shape to travel." - She was out of action bigger part of Luke's fight with the clone and it is only after couple of seconds of his lightning, if not less.

Quotes about his mental powers:
" "I have done it, Jedi Skywalker," he whispered, his eyes glittering in the dim light. "With General Covell. What even the Emperor never did. I took his mind in my hands and altered it. Re-formed it and rebuilt it into my own image."

"But unlike the Emperor, he was not going to be content merely with the control of worlds and armies. His would be a more personal form of empire: minds re-formed and rebuilt into his own conception of what a mind should be."

C'baot took concept of mind domination beyond Palpatine and Vitiate. Normally mind domination is just strong mind influence. It could be broken through conviencing or mental influence of others, some characters could break from it even themselves. But C'baot wasn't just crushing will and force others do what he wants, he was restructuring and reshaping minds in his own image. Luke's clone did not have any memories at all but he made out of him very skilled combatant, who was giving hard time even to real Luke.

"Mara bit out, shaking her head to try and clear it. Between her own memories, an echo of the strange buzzing pressure she was picking up from Skywalker's mind, and C'baoth's overbearing presence two meters away, trying to hang on to a line of thought was like trying to fly an airspeeder in a winter windstorm.

But there was a mental pattern the Emperor had taught her long ago, a pattern for those times when he'd wanted his instructions hidden even from Vader. If she could just clear her mind enough to get it in place—

Through the turmoil came a sudden jolt of pain. "Do not attempt to hide your thoughts from me, Mara Jade," C'baoth admonished her sharply. "You are mine now. It is not right for an apprentice to hide her thoughts from her master."

"So I'm already your apprentice, huh?" Mara growled, gritting her teeth against the pain and making another try at the pattern. This time, she made it.
...
watching his face and listening to the turmoil in her mind. Yes; the barrier seemed to be keeping C'baoth back. Now if she could just hold on to that privacy a little longer . . ."" - This both is a prove that C'Baot has immense mental strength and that Mara could put up an effective mental barrier that would prevent any sort of mind invasion.

If someone still thinks that C'baot's offensive mental powers can't compare to Vitiate's, here is what happened later:
"And C'baoth went berserk.

He screamed, a horrible shriek of rage and betrayal that seemed like it would set the air on fire. Mara jerked back as the piercing sound cut through her ears—

And an instant later nearly fell over the guardrail as the Force equivalent of the scream slammed into her.

It was like nothing she'd ever experienced before; not from Vader, not from the Emperor himself. The utter, animal ferocity—the total loss of every shred of self-control—it was like standing alone in the middle of a sudden violent storm. Wave after wave of fury swept over her, ripping through the mental barrier she'd created and battering her mind with a numbing combination of hatred and pain. Dimly, she saw Skywalker and Organa Solo staggering under the assault; heard Karrde's vornskrs' howling in pain of their own."

This is second time he is described as worse than Palpatin and even her barrier couldn't hold against it.

If someone still doubts that his power rivals Palpatine's and Vitiate's, here is what he is truly capable of:
"Slowly, C'baoth raised his eyes to her. "You will die for this, Mara Jade," he said, his quiet voice more chilling than any outburst of rage could have been. "Slowly, and in great pain." Taking a deep breath, curling his hands into fists in front of his chest, he closed his eyes.

"We'll see about that," Mara muttered. Raising her lightsaber, she started toward him.

It began as a distant rumble, more felt than really heard. Luke looked around the room, senses tingling with a premonition of danger. But he could see nothing out of place. The sound grew louder, deeper—

And with a thunderous explosion, the sections of throne room ceiling directly above him and Mara suddenly collapsed in a downpour of gravel-sized rocks.

"Look out!" Luke shouted, throwing his arms up to protect his head and trying to leap out of the way. But the center of the rockfall moved with him. He tried again, this time nearly losing his balance as his foot caught in a pile of stones already ankle deep. Too numerous and too small for him to get a grip on through the Force, they kept coming, pummeling against him with bruising impact. Through the dust swirling around him, he saw Mara floundering under a deluge of her own, trying to guard her head with one arm as she slashed vainly at the falling stones with her lightsaber. From across the throne room, Luke could hear Han shouting something, and guessed that they, too, were under the same attack.

And standing untouched by the destructive rock storms he'd unleashed, C'baoth lifted his hands high. "I am the Jedi Master C'baoth!" he shouted, his voice ringing through the throne room and the roar of the rockfalls. "The Empire—the universe—is mine."

Luke dropped his lightsaber back into defense position, senses again tingling with danger. But once again, the knowledge did him little good. C'baoth's lightning burst flashed against the lightsaber blade, the impact knocking Luke off balance and dropping him painfully onto his knees in the pile of stones around him. Even as he struggled to get up, one of the falling rocks slammed hard into the side of his head. He staggered, toppling sideways onto one hand. Again the lightning flashed, throwing coronal fire all through the stone pile and sending wave after wave of agony through him. The lightsaber was plucked from his fingers; dimly he saw it fly over the railing toward the far end of the throne room.
" - Fully prepared Luke couldn't counter his TK in any way. Got completely overpowered by lightning. It is not uncommon to see a Force user utilizing TK and Lightning simultaniously but C'baot took it to extreme levels.

And if for some unknown reason someone still thinks that his lightning can't compare to Palpatine's or Vitiate's, here is what it can do to other objects:
"The lightning flashed again—

And with a crack of exploding metal the center of the catwalk split apart. " - His lightning can split/expload metal apart, I doubt that there is a single at least remotly comparable example by any other EU characters.

And what's really amazing is that Mara continued resisting his full power:
"Luke looked over at her. The stones were still raining down above her head; but to his astonishment, the knee-high pile of rock that had been trapping her in place was gone. And now he saw why: those lightsaber slashes she'd been making earlier hadn't been the useless sweeping motions that he'd assumed. Instead, she'd been slicing huge gashes in the floor, releasing the stones to drain through to the monitor area below.

Raising her lightsaber, she charged.

C'baoth swung around to face her, his face contorted with rage. "No!" he screamed; and again the blue-white lightning crackled from his fingertips. Mara caught the burst on her lightsaber, her mad rush faltering as coronal fire burned all around her. C'baoth fired again and again, backing toward the throne and the solid wall behind it. Doggedly, Mara kept coming.

Abruptly, the rockfall over her head ceased. From the edge of the pile that had half buried Luke, stones began flying toward C'baoth. Curving around behind him, they shot straight into Mara's face. She staggered backward, squeezing her eyes shut against the hailstorm and throwing up her right elbow to try to block them away.
" She kept resisting both his TK attacks and lightning right until Luke managed to distract him for her
to strike him down.

On death C'baot exploaded like Palpatine.
"And as it had with the Emperor aboard the Death Star, the dark side energy within him burst out in a violent explosion of blue fire"

While Luke shielded Mara from exploasion, its impact on nearest wall is tremendous, creating a hole in it:
"Luke turned and looked. The massive detonation of dark side energy had made a shambles of that end of the throne room. The walls and ceiling were blackened and cratered; the metal of the floor where C'baoth had stood was buckled and half melted; the throne itself had been ripped away and was lying smoldering a meter from its base.

And behind it, through a jagged crack in the rear wall, he could see the bright twinkle of a single star."

As conclusion I gonna point out at several facts that make these feats look much more impressive.

This fight happened just two years before DE and Luke already had 9 years of Jedi experience and fought many other more powerful users than him. Yet, he was still not even remotely as powerful as C'baot. C'baot could kill either of them at any point but instead he was toying with them until the final moment.

But the most impressive is that Mara unlike Luke in the first book of the trilogy was having hard time lifting even lightsaber sized objects. She was nowhere near to her prime. After that she became Kyle Katarn's apprentice. Even after Katarn she came to Luke's Academy for farther training. And even after that she kept improving and displayed even greater feats. Maybe she did not compare to Jacen but was immensely powerful nevertheless. She blocked extremely potent lightning. She is capable to put up mental barrier with technique she learned from Palpatine himself. She has got incredibly strong will and is one of the most staborn characters in the mythos. It makes sense now why Jacen never tried lightning againt either Luke or Mara because they could defend against immensely strong lightning long before they reached their prime.

I think she's got the right set of skills to take on Vitiate.

That was a fantastic post. 👆

Too bad it's irrelevent. Vitiate as per the OP is waiting for her. That means he has enough time to pwn the shit out of her with powerful telepathy or FLightning.

Further, it is clear from all evidence presented at all levels--game, films, guides--that both the Sith Emperor and Palp are about as high as it gets in terms of total Force prowess. Not to knock Mara but if she couldn't finish Caedus when he's buried in rubble then she's not taking down the Emperor when he's fully aware she's coming for him. You said yourself, Arhael, that she doesn't even compare to Jacen which is not entirely true, but her defeat at his hands shows that she would have almost no chance against Vitiate in open combat.

Again, there is no question that her musings on killing Palpatine during his reign revolved around the fact that he trusted her almost absolutely and that he would not have suspected her attack until it was too late. Against the Sith Emperor she's dead on arrival.

Funny that both of you wrote empty statements with your opinions without backing it up with any real evidence.

Too bad it's irrelevent. Vitiate as per the OP is waiting for her. That means he has enough time to pwn the shit out of her with powerful telepathy or FLightning.

Do you at least have any evidence that Vitiate can unleash similar wave of "pure hatred and betrayal" that would reap through her mental barrier? And the barrier gonna be stronger because again it is more powerful and experienced Mara in her prime.

With all hype about Vitiate's mind domination we actually never get to see/read how it works. I read many actual examples of mind domination in books and can say that imobilizing opponent with mental attack can be insant and faster than whatever raw outbrust Revan gave. The fact that Revan felt Vitiate starting mind domination and managed to counter it already proves that his mind domination is not instant.

Moreover, fights with Jedi strike team and JK show that to mind dominate powerful opponents he needs to break their will with Dun Moch and Force attacks just like Palpatine. Mara's technique learned from Emperor simply will prevent him from reading her thoughts. Even if he somehow will manage to break through her barrier, it will still give Mara enough time to reach him. Also, by JK it is proved that his TK and lightning ARE blockable.

I expect some substantial evidense and comparisons of why Vitiate's lightning or mental power is stronger than C'baoth's. And more important why Mara would get overpowered by his lightning or mind domination, when she could resist such attacks from similar opponent long before she reached her prime.

Further, it is clear from all evidence presented at all levels--game, films, guides--that both the Sith Emperor and Palp are about as high as it gets in terms of total Force prowess.

Not to knock Mara but if she couldn't finish Caedus when he's buried in rubble then she's not taking down the Emperor when he's fully aware she's coming for him. You said yourself, Arhael, that she doesn't even compare to Jacen which is not entirely true, but her defeat at his hands shows that she would have almost no chance against Vitiate in open combat.

I think this is a case of reading far too much in Joruus' abilities, and possible exaggeration by the author, Perhaps this is comparable to taking quotes about Yoda from the RoTS novel, as it's entierly overblown out of reasonable proportion.

Bare in mind this is the Emperor who sucked the life force from an entire world, not to mention stomped his father when he was just a boy! Considering Vitiate also managed to dominate the minds of supposed great Jedi AND the Hero of Tython, his mental powers are not to be scoffed at.

I'm not calling Mara weak, because she's not. In her prime she's deadly, mostly because of her training and experience. But she's no-where near the league of Vitiate, provided he knows she's coming.

She loses.

I think this is a case of reading far too much in Joruus' abilities, and possible exaggeration by the author, Perhaps this is comparable to taking quotes about Yoda from the RoTS novel, as it's entierly overblown out of reasonable proportion.

Second, it would be better to avoid judging authors entirely, when comparing characters. Comparing to Timothy Zhan, Drew sucks on ALL levels, I can point out so many flaws. Zhan is one of the best SW writers, if not the best. And he portrays things very logicaly and realisticly. In his later duology 22ABY Luke unlike DE is portrayed as regular Jedi without displaying any impressive feats. And it perfectly suits time period as prior to YV war he tried to use as little Force as possible.
I remember my friend strongly recomending a science fiction and saying that its author is genious. Imagine my amusement, when he said Timothy Zhan.

And most important he is the creator of Mara. Her feats from his books should be considered above all others. We can't discard those feats simply because the book is very old. We can't discard or lowball any of the feats from that boom because they are canon and so explicitly well and accurately portrayed unlike most other feats especially including Vitiate's.

Bare in mind this is the Emperor who sucked the life force from an entire world, not to mention stomped his father when he was just a boy! Considering Vitiate also managed to dominate the minds of supposed great Jedi AND the Hero of Tython, his mental powers are not to be scoffed at.

Also, Zannah killed two Jedi, when she was 6 and her mind attacks were making Jedi insance. Yet, she wasn't much more powerful than Bane who showed first clear Force signs only in adult age. So it doesn't mean much apart from the fact that both kids are creation of the same author.

Also, I ones again point out on circumstances of how he mind dominated Jedi strike team. He used Dun Moch. Then he attacked them with lightning as well as continued using Dun Moch until they all got overpowered. There can be two posibillities of how he mind dominated them:
1. He used mind domination from beginning. Then engaged in combat and used Dun Moch and overwhelming power of his lightning to break their will. Which is as impressive as Sidious in DE, when he engaged Luke in combat and mind dominated him by the end of the fight.

2. He overpowered them with lightning alone like in case with Revan and mind dominated them after, while they were unconscious with mental guard down, which is less impressive comparing to Sidious and far more realistic.

Also, Vitiate's mind domination quantity does not prove that it had better quality.
I claim that Sidious' mind domination is as good as Vitiate's and I digged up enough evidence to prove it. I am just waiting for someone to say that I am wrong.

I'm not calling Mara weak, because she's not. In her prime she's deadly, mostly because of her training and experience. But she's no-where near the league of Vitiate, provided he knows she's coming.

She loses

It's clear that you already had your mind made up about this battle before you even made the thread. You are the only one under the impression that Mara Jade has a chance against Vitiate. No amount of quotes is going to convince you so pointless thread is now pointless. This is almost as bad as the guy convinced homeboy from Bleach could take Goku. Funny that your subtitle is "devoid of reality"; quite fitting.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
It's clear that you already had your mind made up about this battle before you even made the thread. You are the only one under the impression that Mara Jade has a chance against Vitiate. No amount of quotes is going to convince you so pointless thread is now pointless. This is almost as bad as the guy convinced homeboy from Bleach could take Goku. Funny that your subtitle is "devoid of reality"; quite fitting.

Originally posted by Arhael
C'baoth, also, was waiting for them.

Whoopdi freaking doo. C'boath isn't as powerful as you seem to think he is.

Originally posted by Arhael
He caught her off guard with lightning, when she didn't even have lightsaber on her(she got it later from Leia). This time it not gonna happen because this time she knows what she is going for with all defenses up and she is more powerful and experienced. And her mental barrier will be ON because I gave her knowledge about him and preparation time.

Irrelevent. Her defenses are not adequate to defend against the power that Vitiate can bring to bare.

Lightning? Vitiates full-power lightning was stated to being 'infinately greater' than Nyris', whose lightning was some of the most powerful in the mythos, capable to tearing through her own barrier and disintegrating herself. Even with a lightsaber, Mara has no chance to defend against that.

Telekinesis? Vitiate with a wave of his hand disintegrated T3. Has Mara even faced such focused destructive power? I think not.

Telepathy? Vitiate is likely the most powerful telepath in the series. You yourself compared him to Sidious, and Mara has equally no chance to defend against Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Do you at least have any evidence that Vitiate can unleash similar wave of "pure hatred and betrayal" that would reap through her mental barrier? And the barrier gonna be stronger because again it is [b]more powerful and experienced Mara in her prime.

With all hype about Vitiate's mind domination we actually never get to see/read how it works. I read many actual examples of mind domination in books and can say that imobilizing opponent with mental attack can be insant and faster than whatever raw outbrust Revan gave. The fact that Revan felt Vitiate starting mind domination and managed to counter it already proves that his mind domination is not instant.[/b]

This assumes that Mara can stop Vitiate while he is using his mental domination on her. Vitiates guards were rendered invulnerable to Revan's TK through sheer proximity to the Emperor, and you think that Mara can make him budge?

Originally posted by Arhael
Moreover, fights with Jedi strike team and JK show that to mind dominate powerful opponents he needs to break their will with Dun Moch and Force attacks just like Palpatine.

He didn't need to break Revan and Malak's wills first.

Originally posted by Arhael
Mara's technique learned from Emperor simply will prevent him from reading her thoughts. Even if he somehow will manage to break through her barrier, it will still give Mara enough time to reach him. Also, by JK it is proved that his TK and lightning ARE blockable.

Yes, by the Hero of Tython. That doesn't mean that Mara can replicate that. The Hero is, by Vitiates words, 'immensely powerful'. I would even go as far as to say that the Hero of Tython is one of the greatest Jedi in the mythos. Mara sadly is not.

Originally posted by Arhael
I expect some substantial evidense and comparisons of why Vitiate's lightning or mental power is stronger than C'baoth's. And more important why Mara would get overpowered by his lightning or mind domination, when she could resist such attacks from similar opponent long before she reached her prime.

C'baoth is not similar to Vitiate. Show me C'baoth casually taking down 5 jedi at the same time. Show me C'baoth disintegrating someone with his FLightning. Show me C'baoth taking out almost the entire Dark Council at once. Show me C'baoth mind controlling a hundred Sith Lords at once.

Originally posted by Arhael
And how does it prove that C'baoth is less powerful? Instead of giving vague statements prove it by feats and canon facts. Vitiate and Sidious never displayed even remotely comparable feats of simultanious TK and lightning to C'baoth's. And C'baoth's mind domination is worse as it completely reshapes mentality and memories.

Are you serious? Sidious is so powerful that even Galen Marek is 'ultimately no match' for him. And since when was being able to simulateously use TK and FLightning incredibly impressive? Dooku could do that. You know, the man who shat his cape when Sidious so much as raised him voice at him? Both Sidious and Vitiate have displayed the highest form of FLightning. Both Sidious and Vitiate have displayed the highest form of Telekinesis. C'baoth is nothing in comparison.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, he completely overpowered Luke, who already had 9 years experience and mere two years later was powerful enough to disable droids with wave of a hand, topple AT-AT and confront Palpatine himself.

'A mere two years' is a long time. In a mere two years Anakin goes from losing an arm to Dooku to routinely fighting equally with him.

Originally posted by Arhael
And how losing to Jacen proves that she has almost no chance against Vitiate? Does Vitiate even have lightsaber? Since when Jacen who fought prime Luke nearly equaly and gave him as much injuries is considered weakling? The fact that Mara lost to Jacen doesn't make her unimpressive as much as it makes Jacen impressive.
And what kind of logic is that anyway? With same success I could argue that because Sidious lost to Windu he has almost no chance against Tulak Hord in open combat. Does it sound logical at all?

Does it sound logical to say that because Mara failed to mentally defend herself from C'boath that she would against Vitiate?

Bring me something actually impressive next time.

Originally posted by Arhael
Hero of Tython didn't compare to Vitiate in terms of power either and yet he won.

Why do you say that? The Hero of Tython is clearly the only Jedi in TOR whose power does compare to Vitiates, which is why you have to fight him alone. The fact that the Hero beats him despite being in a powerful Dark Side nexus makes it very clear that shes around as powerful as he is imo.