Mara Jade vs Sith Emperor

You are quite correct in saying that Luke is actually one of the top tiers in terms of TK.

Now Jacen? **** no. When has he done anything impressive with telekinesis? I'll remind you that Jacen was so far behind Luke in that department that Luke effortlessly pinned him to his chair without moving a finger, despite Jacen struggling to resist.

Jaina's pain-clouded mind did not understand how he could take a lightsaber through the gut and do that. Why didn't Caedus just lie down and die like most people? Didn't he understand she was trying to do him a favor? ”
Unlike Vitiate that showed as much as pushing Revan a few meters away, Jacen showed actual offensive TK feats that couldn’t be countered even by Luke and made others fly way much farther.

And it isn't irrelevant because you're arguing that Mara putting up a good fight against Jacen proves that she can beat the Emperor. I'm informing you that she was only able to do that by ambushing and crippling him twice.

He doesn't need to push her into anything, he can just disintegrate her like he did to T3.

No it isn't. For a start when has Jacen shown himself to be a potent user of TK? Secondly, he was really ****ing badly injured at that point and his abilities were affected.
You're an idiot.
I meant drained as in he was exhausted and not fighting at his full potential.
The book says; it was pure desperation brought about by the fear of death.

He also went insane. Do I have to remind you how sloppy insane characters become?

I've already provided you with him doing just that. See below for more details.

With a lightsaber, which is much easier to perform that absorbing it with your bare hands, which is described in one sourcebook (I forget which) as 'almost impossible' to actually do.

Don't be stupid. Simply because Sidious is the supposed 'most powerful Sith Lord ever' doesn't mean that he is the pinnacle in every aspect of the Dark Side. Though I wouldn't say that Nyriss' Force Lightning is necessarily more powerful than Sidious', but that's an argument for another time.

What the **** are you smoking that Windu blocking Sidious' lightning isn't impressive to you? 3 paragraphs ago you were arguing that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos!!
Do you even read what you write?!

Nothing you just posted indicates that she was blocking him with the Force. Luke blocking the lightning is inferrred because its impossibly to do that without using the Force iirc. But Mara just put her arms up. Theres nothing implying Force use there. Kindly leave your speculation at the door and argue with whats actually on the page.

I notice that you didn't respond to me proving Sidious can disintegrate metal. A simple concession will do. 😉

Um, yes. Disintegration is a far superior feat than breaking up a roof.

Mara recieved actual Force training. Luke didn't. Where would he learn to block lightning anyway? Last time he faced it he threw his lightsaber away like a dumbass and got a face full of bolts. 😆

How the hell did a non-Force sensitive resist a Force Choke. Does Thrawn secretly have superhuman neck muscles or something?

"I trust you've learned the limits of your small powers," Thrawn said coldly, fingering his throat. But at least he didn't sound amused anymore. "A little trick the Emperor taught you?" ”

Incorrect. She never gets bombarded while blocking lightning. At least, not in any of the places you've described. The rockfall isn't mentioned at all when she's doing it. She obviously just didn't get hit when doing it, or why would C'baoth feel the need to redirect the rocks at her at all if she was already being hit by them? 😉

Someone does not need to do something in the text to be able to do it. Vitiates feats using TP are such that he can tear through mental barriers.

You're forgetting Revan and Malak again. They were dominated by Vitiate while still on their feet. Furthermore as students of Kreia, an accomplished telepath, its highly likely that they were familiar with mental powers, and since their forces were taught to resist mental powers its also likely there were familiar with those as well.

Frankly Vitiate doesn't need his TP to defeat her though since as you brought up, yes his TK and lightning are more than enough to overpower her.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, Luke pinned him and it shows his unparalleled abilities but it is hardly relevant, when considering fight between them where he did not demonstrate this kind of superiority with TK.

"Luke feigned a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave" - in order to Force blast Jacen he needed to catch him off guard. While Jacen did get hurled towards wall, he didn't get any crippling injuries. And at that point Luke had his ankle crippled, there was every reason for him to utilize that supposed superior TK.

Moreover Jacen successfully used TK on him as well:
“and flung a hand toward the ceiling.
"Dad, look — "
Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood. – As you see Luke couldn’t counter his TK in any way with all his superiority and it wasn’t unexpected as even Ben had time to warn him.

And yet he didn't even attempt it. Not couldn't counter it, thats retarded because Luke has already demonstrated his superiority in that aspect to Jacen, but rather he simply didn't counter it.

If you think that establishes that Jacen has awesome TK powers then think again. All he did was move a lamp. Color me unimpressed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Apart from that he pulled land speeder on Kyle that he didn't even have time to react.

This is my unimpressed face ---> 😐

Originally posted by Arhael
Look what his Force blast did to Jaina in final fight:
“ The invisible fist of a Force blast slammed Jaina in the chest and sent her flying back, her breath groaning from her lungs and her lightsaber hissing free of Caedus's stomach. From the fight on Nickel One, she had learned the dangers of letting her head snap back on impact. She tucked her chin, then fought to hold it there as she struck the durasteel wall on the far side of the corridor.

Jaina almost wished that she had been knocked unconscious. Stinging needle-thrusts of pain zippered down her spine as her vertebrae rocked beneath the impact, and the synthmesh supporting her half-healed ribs came apart in a single agonizing pop. She dropped to the floor, fighting to keep her pain from carrying her down into numb oblivion, gazing back to where she had surprised Caedus:where Caedus still stood in the doorway, his mouth gaping in surprise, with a thumb-sized scorch hole just below his ribs. But he was still standing.

Jaina's pain-clouded mind did not understand how he could take a lightsaber through the gut and do that. Why didn't Caedus just lie down and die like most people? Didn't he understand she was trying to do him a favor? ”
Unlike Vitiate that showed as much as pushing Revan a few meters away, Jacen showed actual offensive TK feats that couldn’t be countered even by Luke and made others fly way much farther.

Making a human body fly backwards is seriously unimpressive. You need to change your tune to hope of winning this argument.

Originally posted by Arhael
She resisted his TK, that's all that matters from the fight.

If you're not even going to read my points then why are you still talking to me? Mara needed Jacen crippled before she could take him. She specifically says that she needs to use tricks to even the odds. She is not his equal at all. Get your head out of your ass and accept that she can't replicate her fight with Jacen against Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
Or just push her a few meters away like he did it with Revan, you cannot be sure, you know?

For someone who uses the term 'low-balling' an awful lot, you sure as shit do it yourself plenty, don't you? Stop reposting Vitiates unimpressive feats and ignoring his impressive ones.

Originally posted by Arhael
Please, don’t get upset over my sarcasm.
His TK is potent enough to defeat Kyle, resist Luke’s Force blast and in retaliation slam him to the floor with a fixture.

He didn't defeat Kyle with TK, he distracted him long enough to stab him in the chest, and where did he resist Luke's Force Blast. The quote you posted had Luke hit him with that blast. Lastly, Luke didn't even attempt to block the fixture, and Luke gets hit alot more than he should by much worse opponents than Jacen anyway.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, you can’t prove that Jacen’s TK was weaker on Mara because of injuries.

The man was staggering instead of standing. He was seriously fvcked up, and despite what you may think, physical injuries do have an effect on Force use. Furthermore it describes Jacen as needing 'one last surge of power' to blow the rubble off of him and that it was an extraordinary feat for him. Frankly, that's pretty shit anyway. C'baoth was better than that. So yeah, not impressed by her deflecting his Force attacks.

Originally posted by Arhael
Desperate life and death situations drive characters beyond limits. Remember Plegious feats, when he had one of the hearts shut down.

I'm pretty sure he did well in spite of his injuries, not because of them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Remember Anakin Solo, when he had wound in his gut.

No actually. I've never touched anything with him in it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Remember Luke being wrapped by Abeloth and driving her stump into his throat.

Again, no.

Originally posted by Arhael
Remember Oppress being shot from all sides with blasters.

He was wearing armor and wasn't burnt from it at all from what I could see.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jacen proved on countless occasions that pain and injuries don’t weaken his Force abilities and proved that he shows greater feats as result of getting crippled or injured. When Mandalorian shot his ankle, he Force blasted a sealed hatch opened as well as jumped. On getting his hand chopped off he nearly killed Jaina with lightning. When Jaina pierced his gut with lightsaber, he Force blasted her and then attacked with lightning. He got his liver gashed by Luke, which is as painful as it could get and still fought Luke and even crippled him. And look again at example with Jaina above.

Yeah, Jacen can still fight while injured, but nothing says that he can still fight as well as he can when uninjured. In Sacrifice the text notes how bad he was in terms of shape. It was a struggle for him to even stand up after Mara's second ambush. It isn't all about pain, his body was just fvcked up and he was obviously affected by his injuries. If you believe that Mara is a match for an uninjured Jacen despite the fact that she clearly says that she isn't, 'Going after Jacen would never work. He could never be allowed to set the agenda. He could come after her,' then you are straight up stupid.

Originally posted by Arhael
C’baoth is insane the whole story. Also, sloppiness you talk about might occur in lightsaber combat. In C’baoth’s case madness was what made him so powerful, it’s a very strong emotion 😉

Insanity isn't an emotion.

And source for where it says that his insanity made him strong? Because it sure didn't make Anakin strong.

Originally posted by Arhael
On a Force user with Force barrier on? I don’t care about worms, they can’t resist lightning and he didn’t incinerate him instantly like Nyriss’ lightning anyway.

*Sigh* Yes, I forgot that something is only impressive against Force Users. Forgive me for my logic. facepalm2

The point is irrelevent since this isn't a Sidious thread. As you pointed out, Nyriss' lightning did tear through a Force barrier, and that is the feat we should be talking about.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nice one. So we agreed that Mara in her prime will block his lightning with no probs. 👆

Haha, fat chance!

Mara has never blocked lightning as powerful as Vitiates, even with a lightsaber. To say that she would be able to demads proof, which you do not have. She'll be utterly overwhelmed.

Also since when was someone in their prime at the age of 60?

Originally posted by Arhael
Lightning is one of the main aspects of darkside and his main advantage. Lightning strength depends on [b]power and Sidious’s power is canonically above all Sith. Nyriss’ lightning turned “instantly herself into ashes and she had Force barrier on. Sidious’ prolonged lightning didn’t even burn clothes on Windu, who had no Force barrier on. Clear and blatant Force portrayal difference, stop being ignorant. Either you accept that Sidious lightning is not even remotely close to Nyriss level or you agree with me.[/b]

It depends on power does it, that's news to me. Mind giving a source for that? Because I could swear all Force-use requires skill as well.

As for Windu, don't be thick. Sidious was merely not hitting him with his full-power. Simple. Stop trying to reshape continuity to fit into your warped little preferences. However much you deny it, Sidious has reduced beings to ash with his lightning. If you persist in this fallacy, then I'm not even going to bother to reply to you, as you are clearly beyond reason.

Originally posted by Arhael
You are the one trying to claim that Vitate’s lightning is far above Sidious.

A-bla-wha?

When did I ever say that? I said that Nyriss' lightning was one of the best in the mythos but that Vitiates was more powerful but that doesn't automatically mean its above Sidious'. For one thing, and I can't believe I'm the one saying this, but both Nyriss and Vitiate were on Force Nexus' at the time.

(Before you claim this invalidated Vitiates feat, note that Vitiate is in the exact same place he performed it in this thread, meaning he still
has a Force nexus to draw on here. How exactly is Mara winning this again?)

Originally posted by Arhael
And if it is true, the fact that Windu struggled more than JK makes him less impressive. I will never agree that Vitiate’s lightning is above Sidious because it would directly undermine Yoda and Windu and over hype Revan and JK.

Wow way to admit to bias there. So you'll never admit to something I havn't ever claimed because it would make characters you like to weak? Why am I still talking to you again?

Originally posted by Arhael
You say it’s impossible to block lightning without Force. Then tell me how is it possible to survive rocks that fall on you for very long time and then even fly into your face thrown by someone powerful enough to break ceiling to acquire those rocks? There was so many rocks that they were piling up around. While they were falling on Mara, she was cutting floor. How is that possible?

Force Users are naturally hardier than normal people I guess.

Originally posted by Arhael
If only you could prove that it was metal. 👆 His lightning didn’t even burn Windu’s clothes, forget about metal.

He didn't use lightning to destroy it. And what the **** else would it be made of, rock? If you had actually read the comic you'd know it was metal because its part of some heavy machinery that Leia rips off with the Force and tries to brain him with.

Originally posted by Arhael
First we see that object break into small pieces, that’s not exactly disintegration.

That's exactly what disintegration is. 😐

Originally posted by Arhael
Second we don’t know how strong that material was. So I am not impressed and prefer to rely on more substantial feats.

Oh but you're impressed by C'boath tearing up a catwalk. God, you're so two-faced its actually funny. 🙄

It was part of some machinery on a space age star ship. Chances are it was very strong.

Originally posted by Arhael
On Dathomir. Luke got Force handled by Teneiel Djo. Later one of the top nightsisters electrocuted her but, when she tried to electrocute Luke, he blocked and chopped her head off.

Show me please. Also explain to me how some random nightsister compares to anyone impressive whatsoever. The last nightsister I remember who used FLightning was so pathetic Maul just walked through it.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I am sure there are other examples prior to C’baoth. Speculate as much as you want about Luke’s training, he defeated Lumya, the one that was giving so much hard time to both him and Mara and he wrestled Kar Vastor, the one who gave so much trouble to Windu.

Again I don't see your goddamn point. How does any of that show that he has great training rather than that he's just strong in the Force. I knew that already thank you very much.

Originally posted by Arhael
“ Mara glared at him and lashed out again, this time with the Force. Thrawn frowned slightly, fingers moving across his neck as if trying to brush away an intangible cobweb. Mara leaned into her tenuous grip on his throat; and he brushed again at his neck before understanding came. "All right, that's enough," he said, his voice noticeably altered, his tone starting to get angry. "Stop it, or Rukh will have to hurt you."

Mara ignored the order, digging in as hard as she could. Thrawn gazed unblinkingly back at her, his throat muscles moving as he fought against the grip. Mara clenched her teeth, waiting for the order or hand movement that would signal permission for the Noghri to choke her, or for the stormtroopers to burn her down.

But Thrawn remained silent and unmoving : [b]and a minute later, gasping for breath, Mara had to concede defeat.

"I trust you've learned the limits of your small powers," Thrawn said coldly, fingering his throat. But at least he didn't sound amused anymore. "A little trick the Emperor taught you?" ”[/b]

😐

And this person can defeat Vitiate? Riiiiiiiiiiight........

Originally posted by Arhael
Rocks were falling at everyone in the chamber including Mara. She freed herself from boulders that piled up around her but she is not mentioned to stop rocks that kept falling on her. He started electrocuting her but she kept coming. Only then rocks stopped falling as he decides to do more concentrated effort to keep her away from him. There is also no mention that he stopped electrocuting her either. So what exactly I am incorrect about? As you said steak to what’s actually on the page.

I am sticking to whats on the page. Theres no mention of her simultaneously defending from rocks and lightning. Which would be impossible to do since she was blocking the rocks with her lightsaber and arms and is blocking the lightning with her lightsaber..... which she wields using her arms.

Also, are you perhaps foreign? I'd like to know before I start ridiculing your bad spelling. It's 'stick to' not 'steak to'. I've already had dinner thanks.

Originally posted by Arhael
In other words it is your opinion.

No, it is an evaluation based upon the facts. Something you've apparantly never done.

Originally posted by Arhael
Revan and Malak doesn’t prove much as we don’t get to see it. We don’t know what emotions they experienced and their general state of mind. We don’t know what that mental struggle was like. And we don’t know how long it took. Basically it is too vague to give accurate evaluation.

Why does it matter how long it took? Its not like if Vitiate takes hours to crack Mara's mind that someone will rush in and save her. As it is, once again you try and ignore evidence. Revan and Malak confronted the Emperor prepared to fight and he broke their minds. End of story.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ones again. She blocked lightning that could split metal catwalk in half. Lightning is not even supposed to do anything to metal, metal works as conduit and heats up at most. Imagine what lightning of such power would do to human flesh and she is capable to block it. Vitiate’s lightning is not better. We are both impressed by exaggerated and unrealistically hyperbolical feats, neither of us can prove who’s lightning is stronger.

Ha! Yourself just said that splitting a catwalk isn't something that lightning is capable to doing through power. Let me in on a secret, Force Lightning is different from real lightning. Force Lightning has actual impact to it, which is why merely splitting a catwalk isn't exactly that impressive. Those things aren't that sturdy.

And yet he didn't even attempt it. Not couldn't counter it, thats retarded because Luke has already demonstrated his superiority in that aspect to Jacen, but rather he simply didn't counter it.

Making a human body fly backwards is seriously unimpressive. You need to change your tune to hope of winning this argument.

The man was staggering instead of standing. He was seriously fvcked up, and despite what you may think, physical injuries do have an effect on Force use. Furthermore it describes Jacen as needing 'one last surge of power' to blow the rubble off of him and that it was an extraordinary feat for him.

Insanity isn't an emotion.

And source for where it says that his insanity made him strong? Because it sure didn't make Anakin strong.

Mara has never blocked lightning as powerful as Vitiates, even with a lightsaber. To say that she would be able to demads proof, which you do not have. She'll be utterly overwhelmed.

Also since when was someone in their prime at the age of 60?

It depends on power does it, that's news to me. Mind giving a source for that? Because I could swear all Force-use requires skill as well.

As for Windu, don't be thick. Sidious was merely not hitting him with his full-power.

A-bla-wha?

When did I ever say that? I said that Nyriss' lightning was one of the best in the mythos but that Vitiates was more powerful but that doesn't automatically mean its above Sidious'. For one thing, and I can't believe I'm the one saying this, but both Nyriss and Vitiate were on Force Nexus' at the time.

Why am I still talking to you again?

Force Users are naturally hardier than normal people I guess.

If you had actually read the comic you'd know it was metal because its part of some heavy machinery that Leia rips off with the Force and tries to brain him with.

Oh but you're impressed by C'boath tearing up a catwalk. God, you're so two-faced its actually funny.

Show me please. Also explain to me how some random nightsister compares to anyone impressive whatsoever. The last nightsister I remember who used FLightning was so pathetic Maul just walked through it.

Again I don't see your goddamn point. How does any of that show that he has great training rather than that he's just strong in the Force. I knew that already thank you very much.

And this person can defeat Vitiate? Riiiiiiiiiiight........

I am sticking to whats on the page. Theres no mention of her simultaneously defending from rocks and lightning. Which would be impossible to do since she was blocking the rocks with her lightsaber and arms and is blocking the lightning with her lightsaber..... which she wields using her arms.

Also, are you perhaps foreign? I'd like to know before I start ridiculing your bad spelling. It's 'stick to' not 'steak to'. I've already had dinner thanks.

And yes, I am a foreigner. I, also, post from my phone while at work and spellcheck is way too uncomfortable to be bothered. But I try as hard as I can to make less mistakes. 😄

No, it is an evaluation based upon the facts. Something you've apparantly never done.

Why does it matter how long it took? Its not like if Vitiate takes hours to crack Mara's mind that someone will rush in and save her. As it is, once again you try and ignore evidence. Revan and Malak confronted the Emperor prepared to fight and he broke their minds. End of story.

Force Lightning has actual impact to it, which is why merely splitting a catwalk isn't exactly that impressive. Those things aren't that sturdy.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke had crippled leg, which affected him a lot, while Jacen had all limbs in tact. Yet, he didn't try to subdue him with TK but contnued with sabers instead. Either he is retarded or he couldn't because in combat his TK is not as superior as you are trying to claim.

Or Luke just doesn't offensively assault his opponents with TK. Remember that he was the person Yoda was giving his big speech of 'the Fprce is used for knowledge and defense, never to attack' to.

Also, yes Luke is quite retarded and seemingly never brings to bare his full powers on enemies. You might as well say that since he didn't try and use TK on Lumiya that she's comparable to him in that regard. Despite the fact that Lumiya was getting outperformed in TK by a random Jedi Knight in Betrayal.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is fallacy in your logic. Revan was not described putting up any defence, when Vitiate pushed him. Vitiate wasn't affected much by Revan's super powerful backstaggering blast and he was "unprepared". This as many other sources show that even unprepared Force users have natural defence.

Ahaha, what? Um proof please? Thats a pretty goddamn big claim to make based on some inconsistency in showings. Its just inconsistency, or you could say that its implied that Revan partially blocked Vitiates Force Push. But to claim based off of it that all force users have natural defenses is silly.

Originally posted by Arhael
Same way Bane's bone shattering, flesh liquifying and temple topling Force blast doesn't do a thing to Kazim.

Um, because Kas'im blocked it with a shield, as stated in the text?

Originally posted by Arhael
Same way Ben experiences Oneness and unleashes that OMG power with Force blast but Abeloth only slightly wavers and she is not described using Force to defend. So yes, when we see powerful user flying away and nearly cracking spine, it is by all accounts impressive.

Huh, Ben experiences Oneness? That's interesting I guess. However I think in that case we can safely assume that she blocked the attack normally.

Originally posted by Arhael
That surge of power means that he was desperate at that point. He recovered and and didn't complain after. Assume that his TK wasn't as strong as it could be as much as you like, facts are on my side. He tolerates pain. He gets empowered by pain. And as I said there is plenty of examples, when characters with lethal injuries show the greatest feats in their life time. His physical performance was affected but it's irelevant as Vitiate doesn't do physical performance AT ALL.

But Jacen didn't show the greatest feats of his life did he? He struggled against someone he repeated expressed amazement that she was even keeping up with him, someone who admits that she can't take him in a straight fight. The text makes it clear that Jacen's performance was suffering by both his physical state and his inability to overwhelm someone who he should be far above in terms of capabilities.

Originally posted by Arhael
Insane people experience far stronger emotions, they are psycho. His rage was nothing like Palpatine' or Vader's, "complete loss of self-control".

No, they just have far less control over their emotions.

Originally posted by Arhael
Mara blocked lightning that could split metal. I say it is as impressive as blocking Vitiate's.

And I say it isn't. For one thing C'baoths feat does not compare to Vitiates in terms of sheer power. Sorry, but cracking a catwalk will never compare to utterly immolating someone. For another C'baoth was using lightning at the same time as using TK, so there's a good chance that his lightning was not nearly as powerful as it would be when he for using just lightning. As evidence, recall that Jade previously failed to block C'baoth's lightning, but when he was splitting his power between TK and lightning she was able to suddenly. Logically, it makes sense.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Luke in RotJ novel could even harmlessly deflect lightning with bare hands for some time. Since he got more powerful and experienced and still got overpowered by C'baoth's lightning (and you said that it is much easier with lightsaber). Clearly his lightning rivals Palpatine's and Vitiate's.

Which contradicts the movie and is thus non-canon. Plus, Sidious was using low level lightning on Luke anyway, wanting to torture him for rejecting him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't you start. Yoda couldn't even walk properly, yet, his combat and power was over the top. Luke in his sixties handled Abeloth. Palpatine was decaying from his own power, yet, look what he did to Marek.

Over the top, yes. But in his prime? These characters are all the strongest in the mythos, and as such they can comfortably boost themselves to make up for their physical weaknesses. Mara on the other hand would have a harder job of doing that.

Originally posted by Arhael
Are seriously saying that Sidious didn't have top skill in use of lightning? I am sure he had complete mastery over it. It reflect his power and he is the most powerful.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he doesn't necessarily have top skill in lightning. Sidious isn't the be-all end-all of every technique. Nihilus was his superior in terms of draining after all. And there are others who I would argue might eclipse him in duelling.

And as I have said repeatedly, Sidious still has some of the best lightning feats in the mythos.

Originally posted by Arhael
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
PROVE IT! I DARE YOU!!!!

Simple: Windu was not reduced to ash.

And since we know that Sidious can reduce flesh to ash with his lightning, the most simple and logical answer would be that he was not using his full-power, but preferred to torture Mace a bit before killing him, just like he did against Luke in RotJ.

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove that they got empowered by nexus! I am tired of your constant assumptions. JK blocked lightning, it's blockable, end of story.

My impression is that nexus' empower darksiders naturally. The darkside is simply naturally stronger on a nexus. Anyway, the nexus exists as an explanation for why their lightning was so powerful, if you want one as you've been asking me.

And I never claimed that it isn't blockable. Just that it isn't blockable by Mara Jade.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because you refuse to admit that there is no way to prove that Vitiate's lightning is any stronger than C'baoth's.

Vitiates lightning defeated 5 Jedi at once, including Tol Braga, one of the foremost champions of the order and Jedi Council member and the Hero of Tython, who even at that point had performed incredible feats of power. Furthermore his lightning was stated to be 'infinitely greater' than the lightning of Nyriss, whose own lightning was some of the most powerful in the mythos, capable of disintegration despite a Force Barrier. Unlike when Revan handled her lightning, Vitiates lightning overwhelmed him.

C'baoth's lightning split a catwalk.

Originally posted by Arhael
Very good guess. That's why they can't be disintegrated.

Not that much hardier. 😆

Originally posted by Arhael
On picture it suspeciously looks like rubbish bin. 😄

So you agree that its made of metal?

Originally posted by Arhael
He did not reap it, he split it with "exploading crack of metal" with lightning. And that's as infinitively unrealistic as Vitiate's lightning could be.

It's unrealistic, but not as impressive as Sidious or Vitiates lightning. To split a catwalk is not that much force comparatively for a powerful Sith.

Originally posted by Arhael
My point is that he is skilled and powerful enough to block and resist extremely potent lightning. If C'baorh's lightning wasn't strong, he would be able to deflect it with bare hands like Palpatine's.

Well then your point is false because he didn't deflect Palpatines lightning, and the only case you brought up of his defending against lightning was from a random nightsister, not who I would call 'extremely potent.'

Originally posted by Arhael
It happened in 8ABY. Fight with C'baoth - in 9ABY. She had some time for improvement. 😉 And even if C'baoth is not as powerful, she still has plenty of space for improvement.

Oh so now huge improvements are possible in short spans of time? Then you agree that the mere fact of Luke fighting C'baoth 2 years before DE isn't impressive for either?

She sure must have improved though, because that is seriously some of the weakest Force use I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fine! Lightning stopped, when he sent into her face. But still she blocked lightning and rocks were still falling from the top at that point. 😄

And yes, I am a foreigner. I, also, post from my phone while at work and spellcheck is way too uncomfortable to be bothered. But I try as hard as I can to make less mistakes. 😄

Concession accepted.

Then I apologise for my rudeness. I shouldn't have poked fun at you.

Originally posted by Arhael
What matters is that we don't know their state of mind at the time. Luke in one case loses fight and gets mind dominated, in another - breaks free, tanks Flightning and overpowers in combat. Emotons and thoughts are the most imortant part in determining ability to resist mind domination and combat effectivness in general. If Revan and Malak had fear, doubts, despair or any other emotion affecting them negatively, then they are easy prey to mind domination no matter how powerful they were.

I'm going to need proof that mental state is important in resisting domination. Surely it should be based on strength in the Force and skill in shielding techniques.

Originally posted by Arhael
Agree about lightning impact. But LOL at metal catwalk not being sturdy enough. 😄

Do you want to prove how sturdy it is? Remember, catwalks are not exactly that thick in terms of metal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Spite.

I'd be hesitant to back anyone beating a fully prepared Emperor.

I mean canonically the Jedi Knight did defeat his Voice after giving him time to prepare in the LS ending.

... Ok, except her. 😛

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or Luke just doesn't offensively assault his opponents with TK. Remember that he was the person Yoda was giving his big speech of 'the Fprce is used for knowledge and defense, never to attack' to.

Huh, Ben experiences Oneness? That's interesting I guess. However I think in that case we can safely assume that she blocked the attack normally.

But Jacen didn't show the greatest feats of his life did he? He struggled against someone he repeated expressed amazement that she was even keeping up with him, someone who admits that she can't take him in a straight fight.

No, they just have far less control over their emotions.

And I say it isn't. For one thing C'baoths feat does not compare to Vitiates in terms of sheer power. Sorry, but cracking a catwalk will never compare to utterly immolating someone

As evidence, recall that Jade previously failed to block C'baoth's lightning, but when he was splitting his power between TK and lightning she was able to suddenly. Logically, it makes sense.

Which contradicts the movie and is thus non-canon. Plus, Sidious was using low level lightning on Luke anyway, wanting to torture him for rejecting him.

Over the top, yes. But in his prime? These characters are all the strongest in the mythos, and as such they can comfortably boost themselves to make up for their physical weaknesses. Mara on the other hand would have a harder job of doing that.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he doesn't necessarily have top skill in lightning. Sidious isn't the be-all end-all of every technique. Nihilus was his superior in terms of draining after all. And there are others who I would argue might eclipse him in duelling.

And as I have said repeatedly, Sidious still has some of the best lightning feats in the mythos.

Lightning is a technique, which can be mastered and Sidious fully mastered it. It's strength depends on power and anger levels. Sidious is the most powerful, therefore, his lighrning is at least as powerful as Vitiate's or above. And even might conceed and agree that Vitiate's lightning is steonger but the difference will be minimal.

Simple: Windu was not reduced to ash.

And since we know that Sidious can reduce flesh to ash with his lightning, the most simple and logical answer would

My impression is that nexus' empower darksiders naturally. The darkside is simply naturally stronger on a nexus. Anyway, the nexus exists as an explanation for why their lightning was so powerful, if you want one as you've been asking me.

Vitiates lightning defeated 5 Jedi at once, including Tol Braga, one of the foremost champions of the order and Jedi Council member and the Hero of Tython, who even at that point had performed incredible feats of power.

It's unrealistic, but not as impressive as Sidious or Vitiates lightning. To split a catwalk is not that much force comparatively for a powerful Sith.

Well then your point is false because he didn't deflect Palpatines lightning, and the only case you brought up of his defending against lightning was from a random nightsister, not who I would call 'extremely potent.'

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful - the lightning rebounded from his touch harmlessly into the walls."

Oh so now huge improvements are possible in short spans of time? Then you agree that the mere fact of Luke fighting C'baoth 2 years before DE isn't impressive for either?

She sure must have improved though, because that is seriously some of the weakest Force use I've ever seen.

I'm going to need proof that mental state is important in resisting domination. Surely it should be based on strength in the Force and skill in shielding techniques.

Do you want to prove how sturdy it is? Remember, catwalks are not exactly that thick in terms of metal.

Arhael, Jacen/Caedus was nowhere near the level of Luke. Luke actually held back because he didn't want Ben seeing his "Master" killed. Luke actually wounded him in the head with his lightsaber blade. I have not been and never will ever be impressed by Jacen/Caedus

Originally posted by Arhael
So when Yoda pushed Sidious, he held back? You can't assume someone held back, when it suits you.

I'm assuming nothing. That's what happened. Tell me when Yoda has ever tried to kill someone with the Force and I might be inclined to admit I was wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lumya overpowered by TK?
"Nelani tried again, this time with the bust of the Bothan. It reached a halfway point between her and Lumiya, but the older woman reached out with her own free hand and the bust stopped in midair

She lost this TK contest only after prolong struggle as she got exhausted. It clearly showes that her TK is not weak but she has got smaller Force reserves. And it doesn't prove that she can't defend against a Force blast or be directly subdued, so your assumption doesn't count. When she fought Luke, she hid behind innocents, there was every right reason to subdue her with TK. Mara certainly didn't hold back and she didn't subdue her with TK either. With losing limbs she has less ways to utilize Force and gets exhausted faster but her Force strength equates to midichlorian count per cell.

Yes, overpowered. She tries to resist but eventually she gets overpowered by Nelani. It doesn't matter why she was overpowered, she was still overpowered.

As for Luke, as I've said he didn't want to use his powers in that way, plus it's entire possible he didn't want to risk the hostages.

And Mara? Maybe she's just not powerful enough to overpower Lumiya. 😉

Originally posted by Arhael
Force users anticipate things before they happen, don't they?

Not always. Nor can they always react to the things they anticipate.

Originally posted by Arhael
And even if Force users get caught off guard, they still don't get vaporized and don't die. As example Luke got Force pushed by Unu'Thul and Luke didn't put up any defence. During his flight he bounced off YVH droids and tried to slow down himself with TK as much as possible and still impact was so strong that his helmet split in half and on a wall was "a fist-deep depression where its impact had [b]dented the durasteel." Now imagine speed he flew with, it's like being hit by full speed car, if not faster.[/b]

Helmet? Am I to understand that Luke was wearing some manner of protection during that quote? If so, that explains it very nicely.

Originally posted by Arhael
Imagine what concussion of such blast alone would do to a non-Force sensitive. When Luke blasted Jacen, he was afraid that "rake would break". No way I will agree with assumption that Luke held back.

That's your own problem. I've explained to you why it makes sense for Luke to hold back. Luke never overpowers his opponents with his TK in combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
In other words in all cases you assume what suits your
cause. As I said Force defences are rarely portrayed.

Oh blah blah, look at how disapproving you are. I feel so bad.

Abeloth is a strange being. It's possible that she simply wasn't affected by TK normally, or that she was too heavy for him to push.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing wrong with her resisting his TK.

Yeah there is, as the text itself notes. Jacen wonders how he can't beat her despite his superior command of the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
Kazim fully resisted Bane's and by all accounts Bane is more powerful and his TK is superior to Kazim's. Welk fully resisted Luke's Force blast and there is no mention of him holding back on that attack, was Welk equally powerful then? In case if you don't know, inferior Force users can resist attacks of more powerful ones, otherwise Abeloth wouldn't have so much trouble with Luke.

Bane also spread out his attack over a wide area in order to break the temple roof. Kas'im only blocked a fraction of the actual attack. And Welk, as I've said repeatedly Luke never overpowers anyone with the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
When Anakin controls his emotions, Dooku has easy time. When Anakin gets enraged, Dooku dies.

Enraged isn't the same thing as insane, now is it?

Originally posted by Arhael
Metal is countless times more durable, than flesh.

Which would be impressive if C'baoth actually disintegrated metal rather than just broke it.

Also remember that Nyriss disintegrated a Force User. Weren't you just arguing that Force Users have natural defences that make them much harder to kill, like denting durasteel?

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, while JK and Braga were blocking lightning, other three helplessly stood reciving full impact. And, when Vitiate finished with all of them, for another 5-10 seconds lightning danced around JK's unconscious body. Moreover, non of them had absorb ability. As you see no one turned to ashes. So did Vitiate held back or simply lightning doesn't turn to ashes in TOR portrayal?

He held back obviously! He wanted to capture them, remember?

Originally posted by Arhael
Lol 😄 Whatever logic she just didn't have lightsaber on her. She got it from Leia, which came there in the middle of the fight.

..... er, yes I knew that.

The point still remains that theres no way his lightning was as potent as it was when he was only use=ing that rather than plitting his attention.

Originally posted by Arhael
If you say so, then Vitiate and Mara are non-canon and our argument is pointless. Novel is c-canon, it is as canon as Vitiate.

No no no no no, what I'm saying is that Luke didn't reflect any lightning in the movies, therefore the novel contradicts a higher form of canon and is invalid.

Originally posted by Arhael
Enough assumptions, at no point she complained and she didn't have any physical problems either.

Ahaha, ok dude, I was just making a point. Mara was pretty old. I would harder call her in her prime.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not the strongest in lightning, not the strongest in mind domination, not the strongest combatant, not the strongest TK (no feats comparable to Marek for example), not the strongest drain. Force storm doesn't demonstrate superior power as it's just a unique technique. What's left? The most powerful polititian? I am not saying he is stronger in everything and he isn't but such mainstream abilities as TK and lightning directly reflect his power.

Lightning is a technique, which can be mastered and Sidious fully mastered it. It's strength depends on power and anger levels. Sidious is the most powerful, therefore, his lighrning is at least as powerful as Vitiate's or above. And even might conceed and agree that Vitiate's lightning is steonger but the difference will be minimal.

Oh, wheres your proof that he 'fully mastered' it?

Anyway I'm glad that he agree. Vitiates lightning is among the very best the series has ever produced.

.... and what do you think that means for Mara's chances btw?

Originally posted by Arhael
No. Material comes from different authors. Each author understands Force and its effects differently just like you and me, there is no guidance by Lucas. As example Yoda was knocked unconscious by Sidious' lightning, so as you see his lightning doesn't even kill. And lightning was still dancing on Yoda's body as he lay on the floor and he didn't even have any burns. Sidious also held back? Or you will assume that Yoda was faking? Mara after two secs of lightning was conscious and, yet, had burns on her. See how different it is when comparing sources?

Yep! Thats exactly what I think! Sidious was clearly overconfident at the start, laughing his ass off and monologing at Yoda. It was only after Yoda demonstrated his power that he took him seriously.

Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn't reduce. And it doesn't kill as proved with Yoda. Also, there is no prove that his lightning incinirates.

Thats funny, I could have sworn I saw it do just that in the source I posted!

Originally posted by Arhael
On one picture you provided we see lightning on other three no lightning and his hands spread wide like he uses TK.

I suggest you go to this thread if you want the full picture. Page 12 seems not to work for me, but I assure you, its simply the large image I posted on the other page. Sidious gets swallowed, he uses lightning and then the Sith Worm disintegrates.

Originally posted by Arhael
I would appriciate, if you provided a single normal source from a novel, film or game, which gives answers instead of more questions.

Sidious66 gave you another source which you seem to be ignoring:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In Resurrection Palpatine also reduces three dark siders to charred bone, using only one hand.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anyway incinirating a worm [b]not instantly does not compare to reaping throigh Force barrier and incinirating a Force user instantly.[/b]

If you say so. In that case Nyriss' lightning is superior to Sidious'. I'll try not to lose any sleep over it.

Originally posted by Arhael
And your impression is right. It provides better emotional state to darksiders. And yes it gives power, it allowes using Force more without getting exhausted and to use Force on much wider scale but it doesn't increase focused attack strength. I know of a feat, where one user with nexus can rise stone storm that spans kilometers and, yet, cannot Force crush another user, who benefiting from the same nexus could just lift a few more stones than usually. I will reveil that feat much later as it relates to Mara. 😉

Wrong, why would a nexus be so specific as to increase a Sith's power but not direct attack power? That makes no sense.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case, if we assume that Nexus was empowering them so much that Sidious lightning doesn't compare even to Nyriss and that Nexus affects lightsiders negatively, then it puts Revan and JK God like far above any existing Jedi. Also, it makes Yoda's absorb look child's play. Sorry it doesn't work light that. Sidious lightning rivals Vitiate's and Yoda's absorb is better, than Revan's as demonstrated against Sidious.

Hence why I called the Hero of Tython one of the greatest Jedi ever. Defeating Vitiate as she did was ****ing incredible.

I'm confused as to why you find it so impossible that Revan was simply better at Force Absorb than Yoda was. You know that the quote that calls Yoda the greatest foe of darkness has long been rendered invalid right? He's not. Or well he might be. We just dunno.

Originally posted by Arhael
Three of them couldn't resist at all, so they didn't make it any harder for Vitiate. JK was still learning. And powerful Force users are not born that often to put Tol Braga any close to Windu and Yoda league. Kit Fisto was also one of the greatest swordsmen of his era, yet, he dies from first slash.

The fact that those 3 couldn't resist only speaks about the strength of Vitiates lightning. They were all Jedi Knights who had been chosen to be part of the Strike Team against the Sith Emperor, so obviously they would know how to deflect lightning. And Tol Braga is an incredibly powerful Jedi no matter what you think. He once fought a Dark Council Member for 12 days straight before converting him to the lightside. Dude is hardcore.

Originally posted by Arhael
That's your impression. My impression is different. C'baoth handled Luke who was already 9 years Jedi with plenty of feats in background and he didn't even put full effort on Luke alone.

Which doesn't mean that C'baoth is equal to Sidious. Don't assume so much.

Originally posted by Arhael
Random doesn't equate to weak and she was considered one of the strongest witches by others.
And Luke did deflect lightning:
"The young Jedi was at once confounded and in agony -he'd never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful - the lightning rebounded from his touch harmlessly into the walls."

Non-canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, huge improvements are possible over short time, when they just start learning and especially, when they restore connection like Mara. It's proven by Luke, Kyle Katarn, Desann, Corran Horn, Kyp Durron, Jedan Korr and many other characters. But this huge improvement happens only at beginning.

Anakin and Obi-Wan during the Clone Wars say hi.

Originally posted by Arhael
I will give solid prove later, just not ready to give out my joker yet as it relates to Mara as well. 😉
For now you can look at how Palpatine worked at Marek's mind in sidious vs Vitiate thread. He dominated his mind by exposing emotions. And after Marek was brougt back to his senses by Bale Organa's shout, he started thinking logically what is wrong and what is right.
Same with Luke. Leia brought him back to his senses by reaching towards him and then he realized all mistakes in his ways and cast off domination himself.
Same with Toll Braga. JK told him that there is always hope and that he needs to fight it, then Braga found strength to break free. Both JK and Braga were given inspiration and inspiration is an emotional thing.
It is indeed all about emotions and thinking. Strong will is not a matter of power, it's a matter of personality and state of mind. Jacen could mentally force even strong Force users to do what he wants, yet, a non-Force sensitive Mandalorian managed to resist him, although, she died as result.

But mental domination by definition is the manipulation of someones thinking and emotions. You'll notice that in all those cases, the person needed someone else to draw them out of their state. And Jacen has never sown that he can read someones mind (force sensitive or not), which is what he was failing to do against her. Him failing just proves that he isn't good at telepathy.

Originally posted by Arhael
Find any thin metal catwalk, strike it with biggest hammer you can find, look at impact. xD
And in SW lightning gives much weaker impact than TK, it's main power is burning.

Lets have a look at a catwalk shall we!

YouTube video

1.30 to 1.59. As we can see it appears that catwalks in SW are made of a thin wire mesh.

Clearly not solid as a rock, eh? 😉

As for Luke, as I've said he didn't want to use his powers in that way.

It was in that moment that Luke finally decided that the life of Raynar Thul would be spared. He intercepted the weapon and used the Force to pin Raynar's remaining arm against the wall along with the rest of his body"

Luke Force handled even those who he didn't want to kill. Your assumption that he held back against Jacen who he clearly tried to kill right from the first strike is clearly wrong.
Luke didn't subdue Jacen because in fight TK can be countered. When Lomi Plo was overpowering Luke with Force net, he threw a random object at her. When Marek got Force choked, he Force blasted Vader. When Jacen tried to Force snap Jaina's neck, she kicked him. When Abeloth Force choked Vestara, she used Force lightning (but it didn't help though). As you see if one tries to subdue with Force, another can counter it or simply prevent them from concenrating whole fight.

Helmet? Am I to understand that Luke was wearing some manner of protection during that quote? If so, that explains it very nicely.

Yeah there is, as the text itself notes. Jacen wonders how he can't beat her despite his superior command of the Force.

"They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side" - He doesn't think that his Force attacks are weaker than usually, he is surprised that she is able to counter them. Your assumption is unsupported, he was affected only physically.

And Welk, as I've said repeatedly Luke never overpowers anyone with the Force.

Enraged isn't the same thing as insane, now is it?

Which would be impressive if C'baoth actually disintegrated metal rather than just broke it.

Also remember that Nyriss disintegrated a Force User. Weren't you just arguing that Force Users have natural defences that make them much harder to kill, like denting durasteel?

He held back obviously! He wanted to capture them, remember?

..... er, yes I knew that.
The point still remains that theres no way his lightning was as potent as it was when he was only using that rather than plitting his attention.

No no no no no, what I'm saying is that Luke didn't reflect any lightning in the movies, therefore the novel contradicts a higher form of canon and is invalid.

Ahaha, ok dude, I was just making a point. Mara was pretty old. I would harder call her in her prime.

Oh, wheres your proof that he 'fully mastered' it?

Second, it is one of the easiest skills to learn. Jacen got angered and nearly killed Verger. Jaina got angered and killed Vong. Luke feared for Jacen life and killed Slayer. I can give more examples of less known characters. As you see the technique doesn't even need to be learned and its strength wholy depends on anger levels.

Now you prove your assumption, all facts support my view.

Yep! Thats exactly what I think! Sidious was clearly overconfident at the start, laughing his ass off and monologing at Yoda. It was only after Yoda demonstrated his power that he took him seriously.

Wrong, why would a nexus be so specific as to increase a Sith's power but not direct attack power? That makes no sense.

[quite]The fact that those 3 couldn't resist only speaks about the strength of Vitiates lightning. They were all Jedi Knights who had been chosen to be part of the Strike Team against the Sith Emperor, so obviously they would know how to deflect lightning. And Tol Braga is an incredibly powerful Jedi no matter what you think. He once fought a Dark Council Member for 12 days straight before converting him to the lightside. Dude is hardcore.[/quote]
Whatever you say 3 of them gave as much difference as Kit Fisto and Tol Braga in his prime resisted lightning less than inexperienced JK. They are anything but powerful.

But mental domination by definition is the manipulation of someones thinking and emotions. You'll notice that in all those cases, the person needed someone else to draw them out of their state. And Jacen has never sown that he can read someones mind (force sensitive or not), which is what he was failing to do against her. Him failing just proves that he isn't good at telepathy.

Ehh... you finally Forced me to use my joker.
As I said mind domination is all about state of mind: emotions, memories and thoughts. No matter how powerful character is, his WILL can still be very weak and no Force power will help him. So yes, even the most powerful Revan could be weak minded at the time he encountered Vitiate first time.
Proof:
"Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.

This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the times he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
"
And now tell me what good memories Revan had at that time apart from war. 😉
Also, JK had love interest, so he scores a point comparing to ALL other Jedi following famous no attachment rule.

Clearly not as a rock, eh? 😉

Imagine cat walk with thin wire from ROCK.
Also, lightsaber singed metal bulks and lightsaber >>>> whatever lightning, so C'baoth's lightning == lightsaber. 🤓

Originally posted by Arhael
Wrong. And Luckily I have loads of solid evidence to prove it.
Luke killing Slayer with lightning.

He had to create a lightside-variation of Force lightning in order to do that, and it was the only Force power that actually worked on the Vong.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke defeating two Jensarai with Force blast: "A quick parry with his lightsaber and then a push with the Force and two of them went down hard".

Going down doesn't mean dead. Otherwise I would have killed Nemebro like 5 times last night. 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke killing bags: "Luke [b]killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Force-slamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst"[/b]

Eh, they're just bugs. Plus thats the exception rather than the rule.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke subduing Thul:
"He used the Force to pin him there, waiting for an answer to his question, watching as the expression in his captive's pained eyes turned from astonishment to anger to calculation.

But when Raynar's free hand rose, it was not to summon the Force lightning that Luke had expected. It was to call his lightsaber back, to attempt to continue the battle that he obviously could no longer win.

It was in that moment that Luke finally decided that the life of Raynar Thul would be spared. He intercepted the weapon and used the Force to pin Raynar's remaining arm against the wall along with the rest of his body"

Raynor was going to continue the fight. Using the Force to subdue him was the only way to stop him non-lethally.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke Force handled even those who he didn't want to kill. Your assumption that he held back against Jacen who he clearly tried to kill right from the first strike is clearly wrong.

Luke didn't subdue Jacen because in fight TK can be countered.

When Lomi Plo was overpowering Luke with Force net, he threw a random object at her. When Marek got Force choked, he Force blasted Vader. When Jacen tried to Force snap Jaina's neck, she kicked him. When Abeloth Force choked Vestara, she used Force lightning (but it didn't help though). As you see if one tries to subdue with Force, another can counter it or simply prevent them from concenrating whole fight.

It can be countered, not it will be countered. Luke already used the Force to easily subdue Jacen even while Jacen was trying to counter him. If the Force is that easy to counter, how did he do that? This undeniably proves that Luke could have overpowered Jacen if he was so inclined. Truculent is right, Luke held back because he didn't want Ben seeing his "Master" killed.

Vitiate has been beating Sith Lords for over a thousand years with just the Force, without using a lightsaber. If the Force was that easy to counter do you think he'd still be in power? Hell, Vitiate killed his Sith Lord father with the Force as a child. If the Force was that easy to counter, how could he do that? Your argument is full of crap.

Originally posted by Arhael
He was wearing vac suit. If it is such a great protection, look at what Marek's Force wave did to storm troopers...
"Then the figure flicked one of his hands, and Luke found himself flying backward, bouncing off YVH droids and tumbling out of control. He reached out in the Force, grabbing at passing hatches, the ceiling, even Raynar himself" - my point is that such blast is way more than enough to kill.

That's non-canon since it only happened in a trailer.

What exactly is the point of this again? Weren't you suggesting that Force Users have a resistance to TK? Well that's bullshit because the TK isn't doing any damage to Luke, all its doing is throwing him backwards. Its the wall that would have killed him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Right after blasting avalance away he had long line of thoughts and she attacked.
"She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force" - as the result of that thinking he started using TK, he was thinking that BEFORE using TK on her directly, so your point is invalid.

Haha, wrong. Jacen was flummoxed that she could even get near him. Why do you think that is? What methods does Jacen have to insure that Mara can't get near him. TK. Jacen was just surprised that he'd been hurt enough that Mara could get close to him without him reacting and pushing her back with TK.

Originally posted by Arhael
"They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but [b]somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side" - He doesn't think that his Force attacks are weaker than usually, he is surprised that she is able to counter them. Your assumption is unsupported, he was affected only physically.[/b]

Thanks for supporting my argument. He was surprised because he should have been able to overpower her. Jacen knows what Mara can do, he's trained around her and known her his entire life. Hell, I think he even fought her in Betrayal. That he's surprised by her only says that he was suffering.

Originally posted by Arhael
C'baoth because of his insanity was getting enraged much more than others.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not a single source shows lightning disintegrating metal.

I never said there was. Now answer my other point.

Originally posted by Arhael
Overpowered with held back lightning? :cursing:

That's just how powerful Vitiate is.

Although there is the other possibility that they resisted enough to lessen the power of the lightning. But he still wanted to capture them, not kill them.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not, you tried to lowball her for inability to defend, when she didn't have lightsaber. Either you didn't know or just trolling. :chair:
As for split attention it is not a fact that lightning requires full effort. Dooku even against 3 nightsisters utilized lightning with TK. In DE comic Palpatine created Force Storm and used lightning.
Luke blocked C'baoth's lightning before and got overpowered by lightning, when attention was split. If C'baoth could unleash stronger lightning, he would do just that instead of throwing rocks at her.

I never said that it requires someones full attention, just that it would obviously be less effective if you had to focus on something else while doing it.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books lightning incinirates instantly while it is far from most powerful lightning,

Er, bullshit much? Drew has only used it twice, both times to signify that the character is incredibly powerful.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books characters can get Force exhausted from single Force blast or lightning barage, in film they can't.

No they can't. That's never happened.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books strongest TK exploads metal into million pieces, in film at most bends or breaks things.

It does that in other texts as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
In Drew's books old character becomes shell of what he ones been, in film old characters compensate their weakness
with Force with no problems. It all contradicts higher canon, therefore, it is invalid.

I'm pretty sure that never happened either. Bane wasn't as spry as he used to be maybe, but he still compensated and kicked major ass. If anything he was stronger. None of what you said were contradictions. None of it is invalid.

Originally posted by Arhael
First, there is huge difference between his and Dooku's and Dooku was master of its use himself.

I'm not seeing a source that states this.

Originally posted by Arhael
Second, it is one of the easiest skills to learn. Jacen got angered and nearly killed Verger. Jaina got angered and killed Vong. Luke feared for Jacen life and killed Slayer. I can give more examples of less known characters. As you see the technique doesn't even need to be learned and its strength wholy depends on anger levels.

Now you prove your assumption, all facts support my view.

What assumption? I just asked if Dooku was a master of Force Lightning. Just because it's seems easy to learn and use (Despite the fact that in Path of Destruction it's an advanced Sith Technique that requires multiple training sessions to learn) doesn't mean that its easy to master. None of those characters used it as effectively as Bane, Sidious or Vitiate did, where they could incinerate their opponents with it. They mastered it. Dooku and C'baoth didn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
And you know why you think it? Because you try to apply Drew's rules to things portrayed with Lucas rules, when it supposed to be other way around. Yoda clearly tried to absorb lightning, failed and suffered its impact. Palpatine clearly was giving Windu at least most of his power and his lightning sent Windu flying hell lot of a distance.
You assume that Palpatine held back on Luke but his lightning looked much more intensive and purplish than Dooku's at any time.
But you judge by Drew's portrayal making assumptions for every single case. And because of Drew's portrayal you assume that in every other source written by different author (that portrays Force complitly differently) every time, if lightning doesn't incinirates, it means that they are not as strong or hold back. The simple trurh is that every author tries to portray their characters as strongest in mythos. Both Vitiate and C'baoth are far above Palpatine from films. In fact only direct canon statements of Lucas prevent us from assuming those characters the most powerful.

I do know why I think that. Because it's right.

Yoda didn't try to absorb Sidious' lightning the first time Sidious hit him with it.

Sidious knocked him out of that window with TK, not lightning. Mace was being hit with the lightning for half a dozen seconds before the impact hit him through the window. It could only be from TK.

And has Dooku ever killed anyone with his lightning? For that matter, where did you get the idea that being purple makes the lightning more intense? Besides which, I think Lucas changed Sidious' lightning to blue in the latest edition.

True, Sidious seems unimpressive in the films because of technical difficulties. Novels and comics can make characters do more impressive things not limited by reality. However none of the feats from books or comics that I've used directly contradict the movies. And as such they are still 100% canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
Maybe because focused attack equals to their potential, which is always the same.

No it doesn't, where the hell are you getting that from? A nexus increases the power a Force user has and can use. Dooku was faster and more powerful on Vjun than he was off of it. Nexus' allow uses to perform feats that they couldn't anywhere else. Dathomir, a dark side nexus, was powerful enough that Talzin could create illusory armies there yet not do so on any other world without Dathomir's energies subsisting her powers. Yaving IV was a powerful enough dark side nexus that Exar Kun was capable of casually affecting the physical realm while a disembodied spirit, as he himself stated that his Temples granted him the power that he otherwise lacked on his own to do. Haruun Kal radiated a Force nexus enough that Mace Windu compared Kar Vastor's powers to Yoda or Anakin's, yet Kar was never shown as powerful anywhere else. The ruins of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, another Force nexus, made Lord Nyax so powerful he could effortlessly throw around capital ships. The Valley of the Jedi rendered non-Force sensitive people Force sensitive. The ambient Force energies of Korriban allowed several Sith spirits to manipulate or kill the living even after Korriban's inherent strength in the Force had largely dissipated after millennia.

Originally posted by Arhael
Look at Vitiate. Did he really change after consuming planet?

YES!

Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever you say 3 of them gave as much difference as Kit Fisto and Tol Braga in his prime resisted lightning less than inexperienced JK. They are anything but powerful.

Lol, Kit Fisto is still a powerful Jedi Council Member you loon. You're ignoring what I've said despite all the evidence to the contrary. These were the people the Jedi sent to take the Emperor down. Them not being powerful is impossible.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jacen mentally applied pressure at Ganner Rysode that he even started running away. When Aurora Sing tried to kill Alana, he mentally Forced her not to do that.

Ehh... you finally Forced me to use my joker.
As I said mind domination is all about state of mind: emotions, memories and thoughts. No matter how powerful character is, his WILL can still be very weak and no Force power will help him. So yes, even the most powerful Revan could be weak minded at the time he encountered Vitiate first time.
Proof:
"Then Nyax drove another thought into Luke's brain: Kill Tahiri.

This time, Luke was ready for it. He'd had a moment to center his thoughts and, [b]most important, emotions. He was ready with his memories of Tahiri, all the times he'd been delighted as she'd made another gain in her study of the Force, all the hopes he'd had for her future and happiness. He could hold up like a shield his memory of her love for his nephew Anakin Solo. All those memories blunted Nyax's attack, shattered its speartip.
"
And now tell me what good memories Revan had at that time apart from war. 😉[/b]

Very well, conceeded. However, that is not the only way to shield your thoughts, so it hardly matters. Mara herself used a method that didn't require that. Furthermore, Revan was a master of telepathy, as evidenced by him putting knowledge of his language into the minds of the Rakata. Vitiate defeating him using just Telepathy is still impressive.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, JK had love interest, so he scores a point comparing to ALL other Jedi following famous no attachment rule.

That hasn't been established yet. It's entirely possibly to not romance anyone in the game.

Originally posted by Arhael
Thin wire that can withhold FAR greater weight than human body, not to mention solid metal on sides. You are clearly trolling me but I can do that too. ;D

Yet Sidious and Nyriss lightning didn't just break a human body, it completely disintegrated it.

Also WRONG, the human bone is in fact 5 times harder than steel. And Nyriss' lightning ripped right through a Force Barrier and disintegrated Nyriss and her entire skeleton.

And Vitiates lightning is 'infinitely greater' than Nyriss'.

So to sum up: Mara only blocked C'baoth's lightning when he was splitting his attention between lightning and TK, so it wouldn't even have been as powerful as the catwalk splitting lightning he used earlier, which isn't as powerful as Nyriss' lightning let alone Vitiates lightning at all and is in fact far inferior. Therefore Mara has no hope of blocking Vitiates lightning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Imagine cat walk with thin wire from ROCK.
Also, lightsaber singed metal bulks and lightsaber >>>> whatever lightning, so C'baoth's lightning == lightsaber. 🤓

That doesn't make any sense.

Take it easy, boys. I've adopted certain philosophy that getting upset or angry over SW debates is stupid, so.

I agree with Neph, though.

This thread continues to be worthwhile only for the gifs that Neph posted. This otherwise pointless debate may proceed if we get some more of that action.