Mara Jade vs Sith Emperor

Lightning? Vitiates full-power lightning was stated to being 'infinately greater' than Nyris', whose lightning was some of the most powerful in the mythos, capable to tearing through her own barrier and disintegrating herself. Even with a lightsaber, Mara has no chance to defend against that.

Telekinesis? Vitiate with a wave of his hand disintegrated T3. Has Mara even faced such focused destructive power? I think not.

Yes, by the Hero of Tython. That doesn't mean that Mara can replicate that. The Hero is, by Vitiates words, 'immensely powerful'. I would even go as far as to say that the Hero of Tython is one of the greatest Jedi in the mythos. Mara sadly is not.

C'baoth is not similar to Vitiate. Show me C'baoth casually taking down 5 jedi at the same time. Show me C'baoth disintegrating someone with his FLightning. Show me C'baoth taking out almost the entire Dark Council at once. Show me C'baoth mind controlling a hundred Sith Lords at once.

Are you serious? Sidious is so powerful that even Galen Marek is 'ultimately no match' for him. And since when was being able to simulateously use TK and FLightning incredibly impressive? Dooku could do that. You know, the man who shat his cape when Sidious so much as raised him voice at him? Both Sidious and Vitiate have displayed the highest form of FLightning. Both Sidious and Vitiate have displayed the highest form of Telekinesis. C'baoth is nothing in comparison.

'A mere two years' is a long time. In a mere two years Anakin goes from losing an arm to Dooku to routinely fighting equally with him.

Telepathy? Vitiate is likely the most powerful telepath in the series. You yourself compared him to Sidious, and Mara has equally no chance to defend against Sidious.

He didn't need to break Revan and Malak's wills first.

This is example from Knight Errand:

Spoiler:
But with his feeble motion, his sister stood and raised her hand.

"You will kneel," Dromika said, facing Kerra.

Kerra stumbled. She'd fended off attempts to mesmerize her all day, but this was on another scale entirely. The younger girl's words stabbed into her brain, raking at her free will. Kerra's brow furrowed, her mental shields going up too late.

"You will kneel!" Dromika boomed, clenching her fists.

Kerra locked her knees together, fighting against the weight pushing down on her. It was more than simple suggestion. Dromika appeared to have mindlessly worked other forms of Force manipulation into her commands, acting out upon the physical world to force Kerra's muscles and bones to comply.

Still, the Jedi fought. "I... will..."

"YOU WILL KNEEL!"

Kerra's knees went out from under her. Hitting the floor with a painful thud, her hands struck the ground palm-first. Her weapon, extinguishing itself, clattered away.

Eyes tearing up, Kerra tried to crawl toward her lightsaber, just meters ahead of her. But immense pressure continued to bear down on her. The only way to keep from having the life crushed out of her...

...was to kneel.

"Regent-aspect," Dromika said, much quieter. From the side, the Krevaaki glided toward Kerra, his quartet of mini lightsabers raised.

Sweat pouring, Kerra looked up and tried to speak. Tried to move. Tried to do anything against the executioner now looming above her.

Why there is not a single similar display by Vitiate? Why it wasn't the way he handled Jedi strike team? Why JK, when alone didn't have similar struggle with Vitiate? The only reasonable explanation is that he couldn't do it against opponents with strong will, while they are confident and have their mental guard up.

Originally posted by Arhael
First, Nyriss got killed not by her lightning. Revan absorbed “it’s power” Same did Satele Shan, when absorbed power of lightsaber and she gave it back in form of TK. So what killed Nyriss was his lightning after he got empowered by her. Second, “infinitively” is a blatant hyperbole.

Er, yeah she did got killed by her lightning.

'Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.'

Revan did the exact same thing that Yoda did against Dooku. It specifically says he used 'the power of her own attack' and nothing more.

And even if its hyperbole it establishes that his lightning is more powerful than hers, which puts it in the top-tier displays in the mythos.

Originally posted by Arhael
Impressive. If only he could do the same to Force users. Luke didn’t disintegrate a single object and yet his opponents were flying away at much higher velocity than Vitiate’s.

Yes because somethings only impressive if you do it against a Force User. Thats why Starkiller forming an artificial hurricane is weaksauce. He only did it against some crappy droids, what a noob!

Launching someone away is nowhere near as impressive a disintegrating space age metal. If you think otherwise then you are straight up delusional.

Originally posted by Arhael
Seriously??? Mara is not? She nearly took down Jacen. She nearly took down Jacen and more or less resisted all his powers, and Jacen fought even Luke on equal terms and she is not one of the greatest? Ok……

Only because of very specific circumstances and because she was able to set up a trap and collapse a tunnel on him. Only after Jacen has been grievously wounded does she feel comfortable taking him on. She is not naturally in his weight-range. Even Zam admits that she only did as well as she did under very specific circumstances.

Originally posted by Arhael
He took down Luke, while focused on other things as well and that’s what matters.

To you maybe. Hadn't Luke just finished fighting his clone right before he confronted C'baoth? That seems the likely cause imo.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate’s lightning didn’t disintegrate anybody either, he was electrocuting with full power all 5 Jedi until the last one fell and no one got disintegrated or even died.

Vitiates FLightning is more powerful than Nyriss', which can disintegrate. Keep up. 😉

Originally posted by Arhael
We never get to see how he killed that Dark Council.

Granted.

Originally posted by Arhael
Quantity of mind domination does not prove quality, ones he dominated someone, he doesn’t need to make any effort to keep control on and we never get to see how he dominated them either.

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and guess that he used the Force. :I

We do see him attempt it on Revan, and it takes Revan pulling a bullshit enlightenment crap out of his ass to stop it, the implication being that nothing else would work.

Originally posted by Arhael
C’baoth’s mind completely reshaped mind of Luke’s clone and gave him amazing lightsaber skill, Vitiate’s mind domination didn’t do anything similar to any of his victims and could even be broken through convincing.

I'm guess you've never heard of the Emperor's Children. Because that sounds a bit like Syo Bakarn. Vitiate created an entirely separate personality inside his mind that he could activate whenever he wanted to lead the Emperor's Children as the First Son, without him knowing or seemingly ever even coming into contact with him. Vitiate also gifted this personality with the power to shield the other Emperor's Children from detection and to use the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, simultaneous TK and lightning is not impressive as even Dooku can do it. But creating “stone storm” and simultaneously use lightning of such power that it knocked Luke backward (who was able to defend against his lightning before on two occasions) is very impressive and unparalleled by anybody including Sidious and Vitiate.

(I'll just point out that 'stone storm' is a level 1 Force Power in TOR, so your worship of it is quite amusing to me from that perspective)

Either way, so what? So he's good at multitasking. Good for him. I'm not impressed. As you said, Luke already blocked his lightning twice before, so its likely that Luke just got taken off-guard or he was tired from his previous exertions.

As an aside, are you seriously arguing that C'boath is comparable to two of the most powerful Sith Lords in existance?

Originally posted by Arhael
Again C’baoth’s lightning split metal catwalk in half, how more potent it could get? (And it is not some hyperbole, it is what it actually did.)

Well it could be greater than Force Lightning capable of tearing through Force Barriers and still have enough power to utterly
immolate a human body, turning it to ash.

Yeah, I would say that would be better.

Originally posted by Arhael
And again on death he gave similarly powerful explosion, which is direct prove that he contained in himself similar power as Palpatine.

😐

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, did Palpatine’s lightning disintegrate anyone? Kota survived. Luke in RotJ survived. Vader died only because it broke his support system. Luke in DE didn’t give a f***. Empatojayos Brand who took Palpatine’s spirit with him was more machine than Vader and, also, survived his lightning. Sorry for lowballing but I don’t see that “disintegrating power”, not even in case with Windu.

Yes, in Sithisis he allows himself to be eaten by a Sith Worm only to disintegrate in from within without effort.

He also telekinetically disintegrates some metal thing Leia throws at him in Dark Empire.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok… First Luke in RotJ was powerful enough to overwhelm Vader’s defenses and resist Palpatine’s mind domination combined with Dun Moch.

When he went into a Force Rage. 😐

Originally posted by Arhael
A year later he encountered Cronal, who mind controlled his entire army. And again his mind domination was worse, than Vitiate’s as Cronal made others complete extension of his will, such mind domination couldn’t be broken through convincing like in case with Vitiate’s victims. On top of that one of the mind dominated victims was Kar Vastor and Luke fought him as well, ask Windu who is this guy. 😄 And at the end Luke resisted Cronal’s mind domination and overpowered Cronal with light and freed whole asteroid from his mind control.

On Dathomir he descended from the sky with his starfighter and Isolder like a feather. In comparison Aryn Leneer, who nearly killed Malgus barely managed to slow herself and her friend down on descend from sky and the fall was still very harsh.
So, was Luke really that far from full potential two years before DE?

Oh cool.

If only this was Luke vs Vitiate then. 😐

Again I'm struggling to see your point. Jade didn't defeat C'baoth by herself and she didn't defend against his mental domination. Why are you bringing this up as proof that she can take Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
Oh, yes, the sweetest part is left for the last.
In reality we [b]NEVER get to see his mental power in action. Nyriss and Revan's stories are too vague, we don’t have details of how it happened. Jedi Strike team gets electrocuted until all of them are on the floor. JK in final is not even shown to struggle against his mental power and to show mental struggle in game is not that hard. All we have is hype and no real evidence.

This is example from Knight Errand:

Spoiler:
But with his feeble motion, his sister stood and raised her hand.

"You will kneel," Dromika said, facing Kerra.

Kerra stumbled. She'd fended off attempts to mesmerize her all day, but this was on another scale entirely. The younger girl's words stabbed into her brain, raking at her free will. Kerra's brow furrowed, her mental shields going up too late.

"You will kneel!" Dromika boomed, clenching her fists.

Kerra locked her knees together, fighting against the weight pushing down on her. It was more than simple suggestion. Dromika appeared to have mindlessly worked other forms of Force manipulation into her commands, acting out upon the physical world to force Kerra's muscles and bones to comply.

Still, the Jedi fought. "I... will..."

"YOU WILL KNEEL!"

Kerra's knees went out from under her. Hitting the floor with a painful thud, her hands struck the ground palm-first. Her weapon, extinguishing itself, clattered away.

Eyes tearing up, Kerra tried to crawl toward her lightsaber, just meters ahead of her. But immense pressure continued to bear down on her. The only way to keep from having the life crushed out of her...

...was to kneel.

"Regent-aspect," Dromika said, much quieter. From the side, the Krevaaki glided toward Kerra, his quartet of mini lightsabers raised.

Sweat pouring, Kerra looked up and tried to speak. Tried to move. Tried to do anything against the executioner now looming above her.

Why there is not a single similar display by Vitiate? Why it wasn't the way he handled Jedi strike team? Why JK, when alone didn't have similar struggle with Vitiate? The only reasonable explanation is that he couldn't do it against opponents with strong will, while they are confident and have their mental guard up. [/B]

Oh man that sure was a long pointless rant. Vitiate doesn't do anything like that because he's a character who is intentionally kept vague, like Sidious. Vitiate spends the majority of his 1300 years of life secluded jacking off over how evil he is. He's only gotten into two or three actual fights so far and one of them occurs through gameplay. He didn't use telepathy on the strike team because he preferred to use Lightning. Nothing complicated about that. There's no need to jump to the conclusion that a strong will can resist him. In fact everything we know so far points to that being false. Revan needed to use his retarded Light/Dark Hadouken to stop his mental powers and even that just interrupted him. If you're going to claim that anyone can resist him then use some freaking proof.

Referee: One...two...three...four...

Announcer: It doesn't look like he's getting up from this one, folks!

LOL @ C'boath being as powerful as Sidious and Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
It was like nothing she'd ever experienced before; not from Vader, not from the Emperor himself. The utter, animal ferocity—the total loss of every shred of self-control—it was like standing alone in the middle of a sudden violent storm. [b]Wave after wave of fury swept over her, ripping through the mental barrier she'd created and battering her mind with a numbing combination of hatred and pain. Dimly, she saw Skywalker and Organa Solo staggering under the assault; heard Karrde's vornskrs' howling in pain of their own.[/i]"

This is second time he is described as worse than Palpatin and even her barrier couldn't hold against it. [/B]

Palpatine never tried to break through Mara's mental barrier. He didn't need to, the girl was completely subservient to his will so much that she considered him a good man in Allegiance. She seems to have only thought negative things about him after his death. So no, there is nothing to suggest she can block a mental intrusion from Sidious. Hell, Palpatine put Vader on his knees via a telepathic assault.

Boarding his shuttle, he ordered the pilot to lift off. A pity, my son, he thought. You could have joined me and together...we could have destroyed the Emperor and ruled the galaxy in his place. As he stared at the severed appendage in his hands, a sudden flash of insight struck the Dark Lord, realization dawning like the sunrise of Bespin. Perhaps, if you will not be turned, little Jedi, a suitable substitute may be arranged.
Suddenly, Vader was struck to his knees by the horribly powerful voice that rolled like fiery thunder through his brain. The pilots struggled vainly to ignore the Dark Lord's...discomfort. "Yes, my servant," the voice boomed in his mind, dripping raw evil. "Come to Mount Tantiss, immediately. I shall meet you there, and we will discuss my new trophy."
"Yes...my Master," Vader gasped, feeling an icy stab of dread in his soul, as the Emperor's mocking chuckle still echoed in his mind. His Master had detected his rebellious thoughts. This discussion would be most unpleasant. Most unpleasant indeed.

And it should be noted that Palpatine wasn't even near Vader.

Yes because somethings only impressive if you do it against a Force User. Thats why Starkiller forming an artificial hurricane is weaksauce. He only did it against some crappy droids, what a noob!

Launching someone away is nowhere near as impressive a disintegrating space age metal. If you think otherwise then you are straight up delusional.

Only because of very specific circumstances and because she was able to set up a trap and collapse a tunnel on him. Only after Jacen has been grievously wounded does she feel comfortable taking him on. She is not naturally in his weight-range. Even Zam admits that she only did as well as she did under very specific circumstances.

To you maybe. Hadn't Luke just finished fighting his clone right before he confronted C'baoth? That seems the likely cause imo.

Vitiates FLightning is more powerful than Nyriss', which can disintegrate. Keep up. 😉
Well it could be greater than Force Lightning capable of tearing through Force Barriers and still have enough power to utterly
immolate a human body, turning it to ash.

Yeah, I would say that would be better.

We do see him attempt it on Revan, and it takes Revan pulling a bullshit enlightenment crap out of his ass to stop it, the implication being that nothing else would work.

(I'll just point out that 'stone storm' is a level 1 Force Power in TOR, so your worship of it is quite amusing to me from that perspective)

Either way, so what? So he's good at multitasking. Good for him. I'm not impressed. As you said, Luke already blocked his lightning twice before, so its likely that Luke just got taken off-guard or he was tired from his previous exertions.

Indeed, Luke was caught off-guard. He anticipated attack but still got caught off-guard by it. Who wouldn't get caught off guard by such immense display of offensive TK?

"It began as a distant rumble, more felt than really heard. Luke looked around the room, senses tingling with a premonition of danger. But he could see nothing out of place."
"Too numerous and too small for him to get a grip on through the Force, they kept coming, pummeling against him with bruising impact."
“ And standing untouched by the destructive rock storms he'd unleashed, C'baoth lifted his hands high. "I am the Jedi Master C'baoth!" he shouted, his voice ringing through the throne room and the roar of the rockfalls. "The Empire—the universe—is mine."

Luke dropped his lightsaber back into defense position, senses again tingling with danger. But once again, the knowledge did him little good. C'baoth's lightning burst flashed against the lightsaber blade, the impact knocking Luke off balance and dropping him painfully onto his knees in the pile of stones around him. ” – in both cases Luke is prepared and anticipates attack but still fails to put up adequate defence.

As an aside, are you seriously arguing that C'boath is comparable to two of the most powerful Sith Lords in existence?

Yes, in Sithisis he allows himself to be eaten by a Sith Worm only to disintegrate in from within without effort.
He also telekinetically disintegrates some metal thing Leia throws at him in Dark Empire.

Oh cool.
If only this was Luke vs Vitiate then. 😐
Again I'm struggling to see your point. Jade didn't defeat C'baoth by herself and she didn't defend against his mental domination. Why are you bringing this up as proof that she can take Vitiate.

Oh man that sure was a long pointless rant. Vitiate doesn't do anything like that because he's a character who is intentionally kept vague, like Sidious. Vitiate spends the majority of his 1300 years of life secluded jacking off over how evil he is. He's only gotten into two or three actual fights so far and one of them occurs through gameplay. He didn't use telepathy on the strike team because he preferred to use Lightning. Nothing complicated about that. There's no need to jump to the conclusion that a strong will can resist him. In fact everything we know so far points to that being false. Revan needed to use his retarded Light/Dark Hadouken to stop his mental powers and even that just interrupted him. If you're going to claim that anyone can resist him then use some freaking proof.

In Resurrection Palpatine also reduces three dark siders to charred bone, using only one hand.

Originally posted by Arhael
My implication was that, if other characters like Luke don't display moving star destroyers, it doesn't mean they are much weaker.
Mara tanked all Jacen's "direct" TK attacks, when he was empowered by pain. Her TK resistance is satisfactory to fight Vitiate.

It means that they have not displayed as much skill in a particular aspect of the Force as others. That doesn't make them weaker necessarily, but it does have an effect on how we perceive their chances here in the SWVF.

Jacen's TK doesn't compare to Vitiates btw and she only resisted after he was crippled.

Originally posted by Arhael
First, that "collapsed tunnel" didn't give him any crippling damage, all his limbs worked fine and at no point he complained.

O RYL?

'His right knee exploded with blinding pain as Mara cannoned out horizontally, Force-assisted, from a side conduit and caught his leg on the joint with her boots, ripping the tendons. As he lost his footing in the narrow passage, screaming, he found himself wedged for a second and groping for support.'

'He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation.'

'He scrambled to his feet, staggering more than standing, and suddenly understood.'

'But he was hurt, and badly.'

Oh yeah he perfectly fine. 🙂

Originally posted by Arhael
Second, that damage from "collapsed tunnel" made him feel pain. He gets stronger from pain, not weaker.

His body also gets damaged. 🙂

Originally posted by Arhael
Third, Mara thought he was finished and got completely off guard by his TK attack, which smashed her against stones and injured her as well. So both of them got caught off guard and both were bruised as result. She is not in his weight-range, yet, we see her giving adequate resistance against his TK attacks and other powers, when he was empowered by pain.

All that the text notes is that her forehead was cut. 😐

Somehow I think she was in better shape than him. Jacen had the tendons in one leg torn even before being crushed and was struggling to stand up. It explicitly says that he was hurt badly. It also notes that he's blew the rubble off himself with a last surge of the Force and that it was an extraordinary display of strength brought about by extreme stress, so he was also drained and crippled in the Force as well.

Also there is no quotes stating that he was empowered by his pain.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is no quotes stating that he is Force fatigued or badly injured.

If Luke was able to deflect C'baoth's lightning before but couldn't in that one scene then there must be a reason. That he had just fought a battle before hand gives us a reason.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lightning can instantly disintegrate only in Drew's books. Never happened in any other source whatsoever, therefore it is simply different Force portrayal.

Bullshit. 😐

Are you seriously trying to just ignore what happens right there on the page? It happens, they disintegrate things with their lightning. It isn't a 'different Force portrayal', its Canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
With same success I can start lowballing Sidious’ lightning because it didn’t even disintegrate Windu without Force barrier and defences on. But then what would be the point of him being the most powerful Sith in mythos, if his lightning is so much weaker, than some random Sith Council member? Vitiate’s lightning is blockable as displayed by JK. So I don’t see why Mara wouldn’t be able to block his lightning the same way, when she already did that long before her prime against extremely powerful Force user.

As I've said, there are other ways to be powerful and there are some instances in which one person is extremely skilled in one aspect. Also Nyriss had to charge up her lightning to do that, much like Bane had to charge up to destroy the temple on Lehon.

Simply because it's been blocked doesn't mean that it can be blocked by anyone. Mara doesn't compare to the Hero of Tython, so saying that she can do it because the Hero can is stupid.

Originally posted by Arhael
Or Revan simply didn't believe in his will and decided not to take any chances.

As I recall, Revan had to specifically create the technique to counter the Emperor's TP.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lol 😄 level 1 power that gets torn from ceiling and spreads on entire chamber all the while lightning that can overpower Skywalker can be utilized?

Indeed, Luke was caught off-guard. He anticipated attack but still got caught off-guard by it. Who wouldn't get caught off guard by such immense display of offensive TK?

"It began as a distant rumble, more felt than really heard. Luke looked around the room, senses tingling with a premonition of danger. But he could see nothing out of place."
"Too numerous and too small for him to get a grip on through the Force, they kept coming, pummeling against him with bruising impact."
“ And standing untouched by the destructive rock storms he'd unleashed, C'baoth lifted his hands high. "I am the Jedi Master C'baoth!" he shouted, his voice ringing through the throne room and the roar of the rockfalls. "The Empire—the universe—is mine."

Luke dropped his lightsaber back into defense position, senses again tingling with danger. But once again, the knowledge did him little good. C'baoth's lightning burst flashed against the lightsaber blade, the impact knocking Luke off balance and dropping him painfully onto his knees in the pile of stones around him. ” – in both cases Luke is prepared and anticipates attack but still fails to put up adequate defence.

Mara also fails to put up an adequate defense, so this point is meaningless. All she does is slash with her lightsaber and protect her face with her arms. If she tries that against Vitiate then he'll just disintegrate her arms.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yep. And in the book on many occasions he is described as worse than Palpatine. Toying Luke. Splitting metal catwalk in half with lightning. On death giving explosion that melted all around and created craters and a hole in a wall. Seems pretty rivalling to Palpatine.

Originally posted by Arhael
First statement I honestly didn’t get what you talk about.

Oh well then I guess we'll just ignore it th- you wish!

Lightning disintegration happens only in Karpyshans books huh? 😉

Originally posted by Arhael
As for second - Wohoo! At last Palpatine disintegrates something. Mind pointing out in which scene and in comic or in audio book Leia threw that object? So I could find it. 

I'll do you one better:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4094/de13o.jpg

Oh no, but throwing some rocks is completely comparable to disintegrating matter. C'baoth is so awesome.

Originally posted by Arhael
I brought Luke’s pre-DE feats to demonstrate that he is not far behind from potential displayed in DE. And C’baoth still overpowered him and displayed far more extreme use of the Force.

My point is simple. Mara has less potential than Luke, had much less practise with the Force and is not in her prime. Yet, she displayed ability to block extremely potent lightning while bombarded by stones from Force user who’s powers rivalled Palpatine and Vitiate. And that she has got technique from Palpatine himself that puts up mental barrier, which likely will make her immune to mind domination. Don’t get why you are struggling to see my point, it’s clear and simple.

Mara was also better trained than Luke and was better versed in the technique used to block lightning. And she doesn't block the stones at all, but instead cuts a hole in the floor. When he starts pelting her again she stops and only 'blocks' the stones with her ****ing elbow. You also conveniently didn't post the part where she blocks the stones and his lightning at the same time. Perhaps because it doesn't exist?

The technique she displayed failed to protect her from C'baoth, so it hasn't exactly got very good feats behind it, does it? I see absolutely no reason why she would be able to blocking Vitiate's TP at all, no matter what you find 'likely'.

Originally posted by Arhael
Did I claim that anyone can resist him? Jedi Strike team displayed that confidence and strong will, they are not "anyone", that's why he used lightning in both cases against strike team and JK later. Mara is not "anyone". And unlike those Jedi and Revan she knows how to shield her mind from invasion and this is my "freaking proof".

You are simply speculating here. The only times the Emperor's TP has been resisted was in the case of Revan and the Hero of Tython, the former of which only occured after years and great distances and the latter of which required the intervention of Ordus Din's Force Ghost.

It means that they have not displayed as much skill in a particular aspect of the Force as others. That doesn't make them weaker necessarily, but it does have an effect on how we perceive their chances here in the SWVF.
Jacen's TK doesn't compare to Vitiates btw and she only resisted after he was crippled.

O RYL?
'His right knee exploded with blinding pain as Mara cannoned out horizontally, Force-assisted, from a side conduit and caught his leg on the joint with her boots, ripping the tendons. As he lost his footing in the narrow passage, screaming, he found himself wedged for a second and groping for support.'
'He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation.'
'He scrambled to his feet, staggering more than standing, and suddenly understood.'
'But he was hurt, and badly.'
Oh yeah he perfectly fine. 🙂
His body also gets damaged. 🙂
All that the text notes is that her forehead was cut. 😐

so he was also drained and crippled in the Force as well.

Also there is no quotes stating that he was empowered by his pain.

If Luke was able to deflect C'baoth's lightning before but couldn't in that one scene then there must be a reason. That he had just fought a battle before hand gives us a reason.

Bullshit. 😐
Are you seriously trying to just ignore what happens right there on the page? It happens, they disintegrate things with their lightning. It isn't a 'different Force portrayal', its Canon.

As I've said, there are other ways to be powerful and there are some instances in which one person is extremely skilled in one aspect. Also Nyriss had to charge up her lightning to do that, much like Bane had to charge up to destroy the temple on Lehon.

Simply because it's been blocked doesn't mean that it can be blocked by anyone. Mara doesn't compare to the Hero of Tython, so saying that she can do it because the Hero can is stupid.

Mara also fails to put up an adequate defence, so this point is meaningless. All she does is slash with her lightsaber and protect her face with her arms. If she tries that against Vitiate then he'll just disintegrate her arms.

Oh well then I guess we'll just ignore it th- you wish!

Lightning disintegration happens only in Karpyshans books huh? 😉

Oh no, but throwing some rocks is completely comparable to disintegrating matter. C'baoth is so awesome.

Mara was also better trained than Luke and was better versed in the technique used to block lightning. And she doesn't block the stones at all, but instead cuts a hole in the floor. When he starts pelting her again she stops and only 'blocks' the stones with her ****ing elbow. You also conveniently didn't post the part where she blocks the stones and his lightning at the same time. Perhaps because it doesn't exist?

The technique she displayed failed to protect her from C'baoth, so it hasn't exactly got very good feats behind it, does it? I see absolutely no reason why she would be able to blocking Vitiate's TP at all, no matter what you find 'likely'.

You are simply speculating here. The only times the Emperor's TP has been resisted was in the case of Revan and the Hero of Tython, the former of which only occured after years and great distances and the latter of which required the intervention of Ordus Din's Force Ghost.

I'm confused here. Reducing people to ash is bull shit as it, supposedly, only happens in Karpashyn's books. But shattering metal is fine?

Edit: Vitiate wins.

Again: "Devoid of Reality" is so very apt.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm confused here. Reducing people to ash is bull shit as it, supposedly, only happens in Karpashyn's books. But shattering metal is fine?

Again: "Devoid of Reality" is so very apt.

Just wanted to post up your own statement from another thread as to how powerful you believe Vitiate's lightning to be:

Originally posted by Arhael
SW_Legion made me think about it.
How can her lightning be extremely potent?
If it was so potent Revan would have hard time absorbing it. Considering that Vitiate's lightning was described as "infinitively more powerful" means that her lightning was nowhere near to extrememly potent.

Also, lets not forget that lightning that killed her came from Revan who didn't mind using darkside, so we can assume that he added his own power as well. Other theory could be that he gave it out in a single burst instead of prolonged lightning, so it's voltage was much higher.

The only thing that makes it look so potent is that she put up Force barrier and still turned into ashes. But look at next observation. Nephtys, you said that Windu doesn't have the ability to absorb, also, we know that Nyriss put up defense barrier, while Windu didn't. Yet, Sidoius' lightning didn't turn Windu to ashes.

When I asked SW_legion to prove that Vitiate's lightning is stronger than Sidious', the best hilarious argument he came up with is that Vitiate's lightning had "dozen bolts", while Sidious in movie picture had only three. "The more bolts, the harder to counter." However, he failed to notice that Nyriss' lightning was, also described as "dozen bolts".
A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s [b]hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.

So, do we draw a conclusion that Nyriss' lightning from one hand was stronger than Sidious' from both hands because it had much more bolts and turned powerful Force user with defenses up into ashes, while his didn't turn to ashes even a defensless opponent? Such logic is fvcked up.

Also, I don't believe Dooku's lightning is any weaker, than her. It was obviously much weaker, than Sidious but so was Nyriss' comparing to Vitiate. [/B]

I believe that Vitiate's lightning is as powerful as Palpatine's. And it is very unbiased opinion considering that Palpatine is canonically the most powerful Sith with complete mastery of the darkside and his lightning is described as "Full power of the Darkside".

This is getting kind of embarrassing now.

Originally posted by Arhael
Oh really? Did not display? Luke in DE killing 2-3 Sith by throwing Vader statue doesn’t compare? Luke defending from millions killik Force attack doesn't compare? Luke Force pushing Jacen that he went flying across all chamber and "hit with so much cracking and crushing that Luke worried the rack had broken" doesn't compare? Revan flying a few meters from Vitiate's Force push is way cooler than what Luke did to Jacen? Revan who’s light/dark outburst did almost nothing on Vitiate who got caught off guard while concentrating on mental attacks is also cooler than what Luke did? There is simply no way to prove that Vitiate’s TK is any cooler, than Jacen’s.

You are quite correct in saying that Luke is actually one of the top tiers in terms of TK.

Now Jacen? **** no. When has he done anything impressive with telekinesis? I'll remind you that Jacen was so far behind Luke in that department that Luke effortlessly pinned him to his chair without moving a finger, despite Jacen struggling to resist.

Also I'm not sure if you're being facetious by using the word cool or you're just really that lame.

Originally posted by Arhael
After she struck his knee: “Jacen swore and made himself run after her, willing endrophins to numb his leg” – he was still running. In comparison Luke’s leg in fight with Jacen was “buckling” and he even fell over at some point. In any case ability to fight with lightsaber is absolutely irrelevant, since Vitiate has no combat and fights with Force alone.

Whoopdi doo! She tore the tendons in his leg. That's badly hurt and thats before she collapses a tunnel on top of him.

And it isn't irrelevant because you're arguing that Mara putting up a good fight against Jacen proves that she can beat the Emperor. I'm informing you that she was only able to do that by ambushing and crippling him twice.

Originally posted by Arhael
As for TK:
“He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body [b]like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.” – Bomb blast is exact TK power that would reap a droid in pieces. Also, Vitiate stares at droid for some time gathering whatever power he needed but Jacen did it instantly.[/b]

It says 'like a bomb blast'. Its a simile you dolt. It doesn't mean that it was actually as powerful as a bomb blast.

Also false on Vitiate needing a moment to gather power:

'Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid.

T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.'

Nowhere in that does it state that he's gathering power.

Originally posted by Arhael
“ He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her [i]crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him [/i]” – chamber with Vitiate is much bigger, she will not get crushed against anything, she would be at most pushed back like Revan and keep coming.

He doesn't need to push her into anything, he can just disintegrate her like he did to T3.

Originally posted by Arhael
“ They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, [b]trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand ” – She blocked his direct TK attack as well as bricks thrown at her and nearly pulled his lightsaber out of his hand. That’s freaking impressive TK display.[/b]

No it isn't. For a start when has Jacen shown himself to be a potent user of TK? Secondly, he was really ****ing badly injured at that point and his abilities were affected.

Originally posted by Arhael
Force drained before he even started fighting with her? Seriously? Those stones must have been the same ones Dark Reaper was made from, if they Force drained him.

You're an idiot.

I meant drained as in he was exhausted and not fighting at his full potential.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, no quotes about him being empowered by pain but there are entire book and countless prior and post fight examples showing that he is getting empowered by pain. Where did that TK power described as “detonation” came from then?

The book says; it was pure desperation brought about by the fear of death.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, one of the reasons was that he got enraged because they killed Luke’s clone. Should I remind how strong enraged characters become?

He also went insane. Do I have to remind you how sloppy insane characters become?

Originally posted by Arhael
And it’s canon that her lightning was casually absorbed by Revan.

Which doesn't diminish it at all and only serves to elevate Revan. BTW, when Revan tried the same thing on Vitiate, he was completely unable to absorb it and got put on his ass.

Originally posted by Arhael
And it’s canon that lightning of Plapatine (the most powerful Sith) did not disintegrate and yet it was absorbed with huge effort by Yoda (the greatest foe the darkside ever faced).

I've already provided you with him doing just that. See below for more details.

Originally posted by Arhael
It’s, also, canon that JK blocking Vitiate’s lightning struggled less, than Windu – Palpatine’s.

With a lightsaber, which is much easier to perform that absorbing it with your bare hands, which is described in one sourcebook (I forget which) as 'almost impossible' to actually do.

Originally posted by Arhael
Assumption that Nyriss lightning is much stronger, than Palpatines, while infinitively less powerful than Vitiate’s is just ridiculous, illogical and plain stupid. Her lightning does not compare to Sidious even remotely whatever Drew was thinking, when righting his silly book.

Don't be stupid. Simply because Sidious is the supposed 'most powerful Sith Lord ever' doesn't mean that he is the pinnacle in every aspect of the Dark Side. Though I wouldn't say that Nyriss' Force Lightning is necessarily more powerful than Sidious', but that's an argument for another time.

Originally posted by Arhael
And both Nyriss and Bane are from Drew’s books. “Charge up” concept does not exist outside drew’s books, lightning cannot be charged up in any other source. Clearly it is different Force portrayal.
Palpatine mastered every single known and unknown power, lightning and mind domination included and he is the most powerful Sith. Lightning strength directly depends on power and anger levels, he had over the top of both.

Incorrect. Focusing power for a big attack exists in many other parts of the mythos such as Kinetite in The Force Unleashed and Vitiate himself clearly focuses his power briefly in TOR before unleashing it on the Jedi Strike team.

Either way you are talking out of your ass. There is no way you can write off parts of canon that you don't like by stating 'different Force portrayal'. Canonicity says that unless overruled by a higher form of canon, any canon showing exists inside on continuity as shown.

Originally posted by Arhael
Tol Braga could block it for some time as well. Sorry but blocking his lightning is at most as impressive as Windu blocking Sidious lightning and Windu wasn’t as powerful as Yoda. No need for farther hype.

What the **** are you smoking that Windu blocking Sidious' lightning isn't impressive to you? 3 paragraphs ago you were arguing that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos!!

Do you even read what you write?!

Originally posted by Arhael
Nice try. But unfortunately it doesn’t prove that she didn’t use any Force effort to defend against those boulders. Authors do not always put every single detail. Let me bring a few examples:
“ Again the lightning flashed, throwing coronal fire all through the stone pile and sending wave after wave of agony through him. ” – Luke is not described resisting C’baoth’s lightning with any Force effort. His lightning is powerful enough to split metal catwalk in half but cannot do anything to a much softer and vulnerable human body and Luke doesn’t even get unconscious. Why? Because he resisted it with the Force. Same way he is tanking Abeloth’s lightning, which is supposed to be the most powerful in mythos and not a single mention that he used Force to resist it, it’s out of context.
“ Throwing every last bit of strength into the effort, he caught Mara in a solid Force grip, pulling her back away from that burst of energy as fast as he could. He felt the wave-front slam into him; felt the slight easing of stress as Leia's strength joined his effort.” – Luke is described pulling Mara but is not described to use Force to defend against the wave her or himself. Yet, he feels “easing of stress” as Leia joined effort. The fact that he shielded himself from the Force is out of context.
Back to Mara. When she was blocking lightning, stones were still bombarding her. Here is prove: “ Abruptly, the rockfall over her head ceased. ” – Then he started throwing rocks directly at her - focused TK attack. Force resistance is taken out of context because it is Luke’s narration. So all your lowballing of this feat is void.

Nothing you just posted indicates that she was blocking him with the Force. Luke blocking the lightning is inferrred because its impossibly to do that without using the Force iirc. But Mara just put her arms up. Theres nothing implying Force use there. Kindly leave your speculation at the door and argue with whats actually on the page.

Originally posted by Arhael
I don’t see any lightning on the picture. It looks like TK, he even spread his hands sideways like he is reaping it apart. And tearing into pieces flesh will NEVER be as impressive as shattering stone/metal, which C’baoth did both with TK and lightning.

Here is the previous page:

And yeah it is. He's not tearing it to pieces, his lightning is just so intense that it completely incinerates the monster, turning it to ash. That's a level of sheer power beyond merely shattering some stone. Although even then Sidious' lightning nearly overpowered Mace Windu, the man who can punch holes in super battle droids, so its still more powerful.

I notice that you didn't respond to me proving Sidious can disintegrate metal. A simple concession will do. 😉

Originally posted by Arhael
Those pieces weren’t laying around, he tore them from ceiling. So Force blasting a single object is more impressive than creating stone storm that covers entire chamber? Give me a break. And ones again Luke couldn’t counter those rocks in any way, no need to lowball it.

Um, yes. Disintegration is a far superior feat than breaking up a roof.

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove that she was more skilled, than him in ANYTHING at that point.

Mara recieved actual Force training. Luke didn't. Where would he learn to block lightning anyway? Last time he faced it he threw his lightsaber away like a dumbass and got a face full of bolts. 😆

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, in second book of the same trilogy Thrawn was resisting her Force choke until she got exhausted and gave up. You assume that by the time of next book she was in her prime?

How the hell did a non-Force sensitive resist a Force Choke. Does Thrawn secretly have superhuman neck muscles or something?

Originally posted by Arhael
She was bombarded by rocks, while blocking lightning. This quote comes after she was blocking his lightning for some time: “ Abruptly, the rockfall over her head ceased. ”. It is novel, not science book. Things never gonna be described explicitly, get over it.

Incorrect. She never gets bombarded while blocking lightning. At least, not in any of the places you've described. The rockfall isn't mentioned at all when she's doing it. She obviously just didn't get hit when doing it, or why would C'baoth feel the need to redirect the rocks at her at all if she was already being hit by them? 😉

Originally posted by Arhael
Vitiate has no feats of reaping through any barriers like C’baoth. And characters that confronted him have no feats of any techniques to resist mental attacks. And her barrier has a lot of space for improvement as she is not in her prime.

Someone does not need to do something in the text to be able to do it. Vitiates feats using TP are such that he can tear through mental barriers.

Originally posted by Arhael
By your own admittance Vitiate defeated Jedi strike team with lightning. They didn’t have chance to resist mind domination as they were unconscious. And the fact stays, there is no single display of Vitiate successfully mind dominating someone, while they are still on their feet. I assume Mara getting dominated only, if he manages to overpower her with lightning or TK.

You're forgetting Revan and Malak again. They were dominated by Vitiate while still on their feet. Furthermore as students of Kreia, an accomplished telepath, its highly likely that they were familiar with mental powers, and since their forces were taught to resist mental powers its also likely there were familiar with those as well.

Frankly Vitiate doesn't need his TP to defeat her though since as you brought up, yes his TK and lightning are more than enough to overpower her.

Goddammit.

Does this one work?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Goddammit.

Does this one work?

The worm isn't made of metal though, so that's irrelevant. 💃

D'oh! I forgot that, and he also didn't use it on a Force user. Its completely useless!