Mara Jade vs Sith Emperor

Originally posted by Arhael
And you still can't prove that his Force abilities were affected. He was affected only physically. So Mara's feat is not void. In contrary there are plenty proves that he gets stronger from pain or at least ignores prior to fight with her. Evidence is on my side, like it or not.

And being affected physically would affect his Force powers. It slows down his reactions and makes it harder for him to react to thing. It makes it harder for him to focus his power and use his power. When Luke was physically emaciated in a recent novel his abilities were affected. When Bane was dying from poison he needed to slaughter a family just to get enough Force energy to continue moving. You yourself have posted proof that physical age can cripple a Force user.

And if his abilities weren't affected and his best effort in TK really is struggling to push some rubble off himself and being unable to beat Mara Jade with his TK then this discussion doesn't even have a point because he'd be pathetic in TK anyway.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, he overpowered Scourge, which is laughable. As I said only in Drew's book.
And yes, not everyone is Yoda or Kenobi, or Strinn - Luke's oldest student, not everyone.
Age doesn't reduce Force reserves in other material, only in Drew's books.
Non-practising reduces reserves but not age.

Drews books are canon no matter what you think. Cry me a river if you think its so bad.

Lucas himself said that Kenobi was affected by his age btw. So theres a G-canon precident.

Originally posted by Arhael
I guess Kenobi was so much beyond Bane that he fought such a long fight with Anakin, had TK contest and fought even longer after.

No not really. We can't know how long Bane and Kas'im actually fought since its ambiguous in the text and Kenobi never exerted himself in the Force as much as Bane did. Bane put everything he had into that attack.

Originally posted by Arhael
In other material characters get exhausted by channeling Force, not by giving it all out in an instant blast or 2 sec of lightning.

Then I guess that Sith guy must be non-canon.

You're ridiculous. 🙄

Originally posted by Arhael
No, I want you to consider differences and stop assuming that Vitiate is infinitively more powerful than everyone simply because author makes it look like that.

I never said that he was infinitely more powerful than everyone. I said that he was infinitely more powerful than Nyriss, who herself would beat the everloving shit out of Mara.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which will never be as good as dominating a Sith Lord and taking over planet's control in childhood, dominating hundreds Sith Lords and consuming planet, live over thousand years and defeating five "powerful" Jedi simultaniously without lightsaber.

Only a foolish fool such as yourself would think that by foolishly providing arguments for the opposition that it would make their own foolish arguments seem less foolish.

Fine, Vitiates the most powerful Sith Lord in history. I hope you're happy about it.

Originally posted by Arhael
And your best argument was that Sidious held back in the movie eveytime. Your opinion is clearly influenced by other authors, specifically Drew.

I'm sorry that my arguments don't live up to your lofty standards.

Originally posted by Arhael
Force wound didn't make her equally powerful or him equally weakened.

You've clearly not played the actual game or you would know that he was weakened by trying to drain the Exile. And then again by Visas. And he was starving at the time.

Originally posted by Arhael
As you see ones Force users learn a technique, its strength utterly depends on their power.

.... no it doesn't. 😬

Force mastery is just as important as power, if not more important. For all his power Anakin was repeatedly kicked around by Dooku because he simply didn't have an ounce of the latter's mastery of the Force. One of the Sourcebooks flat out says that 'Only intense training, meditation, and study grants one a notable command of the Force.'

Power isn't all-important.

Originally posted by Arhael
So Sidious and Vitiate had strongest lightning not because they mastered it but because they had far greater power than others.

Nonononononononnnoononononnononnnnononnnonnnono........

Originally posted by Arhael
😆

Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn't contradict at that point. If we don't take it into account, then Vaapad and everything else goes into garbage as well. In any case I will value opinion of legitimate author above yours.

In any case Lightning gives impact. It knocked backward Anakin in II and Yoda in III.
Your assumption is unsupported entirely.

Yes I know it gives impact, I was the one that said that in the first place.

However it makes no sense for lightning to only have impact 5 seconds after its already hit something.

Just as it makes no sense for lightning to pick Anakin up and smash him sideways into a wall. That was Dooku using TK as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
Either you admit that Mara is far above Kyle or that darkside nexuses don't make much difference. You can't have both.

Or I can say that Katarns abilities were obviously damaged from whatever it is that made him turn to the darkside. I'm guessing mind control.

Originally posted by Arhael
And he still couldn't overpower with Force or outskill.

Because Yoda is just that much better than him.

Originally posted by Arhael
That army was Force sensitive. Valley gave them fast way to reach full potential. Same did Kyle, so instead of months it took him days to fully restore connection.

Were they? I don't recall that ever being said in the game. All it says is that Tavion is empowering her army. Unless she somehow collected an army of Force Sensitives without anyone noticing then I somehow doubt that thats what they were.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nyax's mental power is far beyond your Vitiate. He briefly mind dominated even prime Luke, who broke free from Palpatine's domination. And Mara showed equally strong resistance in that struggle. So I say she IS immune to domination of Vitiate level.

And Luke broke from his domination as well fool, so I don't see how that matters.

Vitiate mentally dominated 100's of Sith Lords. Nigga got game sucka!

Originally posted by Arhael
Thin catwalk with solid and thick metal on sides along the catwalk.

And did the text specify that he broke the thick metal or did it just say 'split the catwalk' without going into any detail?

Oh, I bet it was that last one!

Originally posted by Arhael
Thank you for pointing out my and author's lack of physics knowledge.

:Franziska bow no11191:

Originally posted by Arhael
Me smoking?
Luke struggles against lightning, then Hidden One makes it harder for him with wind, it even says that Luke as responce "rooted himself" and "Then, against the might of both wind and lightning, he took another step forward". It clearly shows that he had to struggle more. Hidden One did not utilize lightning combined with wind for fun sake.

No it didn't. He blocked the lightning then started moving forward, so the Hidden One started using wind against him and Luke just rooted himself and kept moving forward. Theres nothing indicating he struggles more against the combined wind and lightning at all. Just because it says 'ZOMG the might of both wind and lightning' doesn't suggest that he struggled, it just specified that he was resisting both.

Foolish fool spouting foolishly foolish things, as I expected from a foolish fool such as you. It's a lightside variation of Force Lightning, as was discovered by Plo Koon shortly before he froze his 6th creek that week. Like a fool.

Luke opened his fingers and released Welk.
" - As you see it's not only emotions that determine. lightside/darkside power, it is intention.
Anyway, nice butthurt, no offence taken.

That's funny I have it on good authority from the Magnificent Gideon that Gavar is pretty ****ing powerful. As I recall the man was able to resist Abeloth at one point like a boss, so him resisting Luke is hardly a shitty feat for Luke.

What a foolish thing to say, you fool. First, Jacen has goddamn precognition (the ability to see the future) that should have allowed him to foresee Lukes attack unless Luke blocked it. Secondly, he wasn't scared until after Luke had already pwned him. Thirdly the point is that Luke had beaten him and pinned him to a chair and was continuing to hold him down without any effort whatsoever. Furthermore, the fact that Jacen did try to stand up shows that he would have tried to throw off the hold at one point.

As I recall at one point Luke begins to dismantle Jacen's StealthX with the Force while Jacen is inside it, while flying himself, with Jacen unable to stop it, after Luke had already made Jacen look like a moron with illusions. Luke kicks Jacen's ass with the Force so many times and so easily in that series it becomes funny.

Futhermore, Luke could have just killed him, he didn't need to subdue him.

That isn't the beginning of the fight, you fool.

Furthermore as I pointed out Luke had the opportunity to pwn Jacen with the Force and he didn't do it.

I recognise that there will be certain differences between authors. But if you think that I'm going to let you try to handwave away feats by claiming that its just artistic differences you have another ****ing thing coming fool.

Other than the fact that he couldn't even overpower Mara Jade.

You still haven't established why that would be an impressive feat btw. You utterly failed to show me Jacen do anything impressive with TK thet would make me think that Mara resisting him makes it conceivable that she could resist Vitiate.

Anakin subdued them because he drew on the power of Mortis, which was the center of the Force or something. he can't reach that level simply out of concern. He's saved those he loves multiple times without going Super Saiyan on everythings asses.

Say whatever you want, Jacen should be able to know how powerful someone is who he's known for his entire life.

When did Jacen think he was superior to Luke? I don't recall that ever happening. I think you just made that up.

"I'm already a few steps ahead of him. Trust me."

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]And being affected physically would affect his Force powers. It slows down his reactions and makes it harder for him to react to thing. It makes it harder for him to focus his power and use his power. When Luke was physically emaciated in a recent novel his abilities were affected. When Bane was dying from poison he needed to slaughter a family just to get enough Force energy to continue moving.

if his abilities weren't affected and his best effort in TK really is struggling to push some rubble off himself and being unable to beat Mara Jade with his TK then this discussion doesn't even have a point because he'd be pathetic in TK anyway.

You are ridiculous.

Only a foolish fool such as yourself would think that by foolishly providing arguments for the opposition that it would make their own foolish arguments seem less foolish.

You've clearly not played the actual game or you would know that he was weakened by trying to drain the Exile. And then again by Visas. And he was starving at the time.

Force mastery is just as important as power, if not more important. For all his power Anakin was repeatedly kicked around by Dooku because he simply didn't have an ounce of the latter's mastery of the Force. One of the Sourcebooks flat out says that 'Only intense training, meditation, and study grants one a notable command of the Force.'

Power isn't all-important.

However it makes no sense for lightning to only have impact 5 seconds after its already hit something.

Or I can say that Katarns abilities were obviously damaged from whatever it is that made him turn to the darkside. I'm guessing mind control.

Because Yoda is just that much better than him.

Were they? I don't recall that ever being said in the game. All it says is that Tavion is empowering her army. Unless she somehow collected an army of Force Sensitives without anyone noticing then I somehow doubt that thats what they were.

And Luke broke from his domination as well fool, so I don't see how that matters.

Vitiate mentally dominated 100's of Sith Lords. Nigga got game sucka!

And did the text specify that he broke the thick metal or did it just say 'split the catwalk' without going into any detail?

No it didn't. He blocked the lightning then started moving forward, so the Hidden One started using wind against him and Luke just rooted himself and kept moving forward. Theres nothing indicating he struggles more against the combined wind and lightning at all. Just because it says 'ZOMG the might of both wind and lightning' doesn't suggest that he struggled, it just specified that he was resisting both.

I think I'll use a good guy this time.

Originally posted by Arhael
Plo Kun's lightning didn't kill, it stunned. Jacen's electric judgement didn't kill, it was only stunning and Jacen himself stated that he didn't want to use version of lightning on vong that kills. Luke himself stated that killing with Force directly is the worth abuse of the Force that leads to personality degradation but sadly I can't remember in which book.

Objection! That doesn't mean that they're not the same technique! Only that Luke used it better and more powerfully than those two did. Nothing else.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case open Kotor and you will find that not a single lightside power can kill, the only offensive power can destroy only droids.

Yes and we all know that Kotor is the foremost authority on the Force.

Originally posted by Arhael
"Luke reached out in the Force, bringing his thumb and forefinger together.

Welk's lipless mouth fell open. Dire gurgling sounds began to rise from his throat-and then Luke remembered Alema's sacrifice of the membrosia giver. Had he grown that casual about killing? So accustomed to the power he wielded that he would use it to kill when he had other means to defend himself?

Luke opened his fingers and released Welk.
" - As you see it's not only emotions that determine. lightside/darkside power, it is intention.
Anyway, nice butthurt, no offence taken.

What, Force Choke? Yeah, Force Choke really needs bad intentions behind it in order for it to be considered a darkside power.

Originally posted by Arhael
As I showed he did not resist Luke, he threw an object in him to distract his concentration, same can be done by any Force user, when pinned.

Objection! What exactly does that have to do with this fight? Vitiate is a darksider. He isn't going to pin Mara, he's going to kill her.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ones again Jacen DID NOT want to fight. He had leverage over Order, it was in his benefit to resolve it without fight.
He tried to stand up but he didn't try to break Luke's concentration. The only way to get freed would be to attack Luke with TK, which he didn't and preferred to talk it out instead.

No, that wasn't the only way to free hmself. He could have resisted Luke's TK with his own TK, like when he blew the rubble off of himself, only more controlled.

Originally posted by Arhael
Let me refresh your memory. Luke never tried to dismantle his stealth X with the Force, it was another stealthX attacking with grappling hooks and Jacen assumed that it was Force:
"he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.
"

Did you just... lie to me? You must have because literally 2 lines above what you quoted is this:

'Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest.'

I think this is a pretty clear indication that Luke far outstrips Jacen in the Force and TK in general. Jacen tries to block Luke and all that happens is that Luke breaks his ****ing ribs.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anyway I showed you evidence that Luke tried to kill Jacen right from the beginning with lightsaber and explained why Luke doesn't Force pin during the fight and even brought you example with Gavar Khai. If you still want to ignore it, fine.

And I've given you plenty of evidence showing that Luke could have pinned him if he had wanted to. The above quote neatly destroys your argument. Luke is above Jacen in TK. Alot. So you can't try and act as if Jacen was powerful in TK just because he once fought Luke and survived. Now it's up to you to prove that Jacen is powerful in TK in his own right, which is the only thing that will establish that Mara blocking him proves that she can block Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
And right at the beginning it says that "He didn't give him any chance to surrender" and struck him in kidney to "to disable in the most painful way possible" but luckily Jacen blocked. Then he got hit in ribs and then tried to cut his head off. Luke tried to kill, what other prove you need?

I've actually forgotten the point of this discussion. It has no baring on this thread. You yourself have indicated why Luke didn't disable Jacen with the Force and you yourself said that it isn't because Jacen is Luke's equal or close to equal in the Force. I have also given reasons and shown that Jacen is not actually close to Luke in TK, which is why Mara blocking him is not impressive and does not mean she can block Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
And he used that opportunity, he Force blasted Jacen into the wall.

Thank you for providing yet more evidence for why Jacen is nowhere near Luke in terms of TK.

Originally posted by Arhael
If you recognize then stop expecting every character to blow up droids in million pieces. Even Abeloth doesn't have much impressive feats.

Abeloth melted a ****ing city just by getting angry. 😐

Originally posted by Arhael
Which only shows how strong she is and doesn't put him in a bad way. Remember you saying same thing about Revan, when I said that Nyriss causally got handle by him. 😉
Anyway, funny how you know lowball his TK after arguing so much that his Force abilities were affected. 😆

Which would apply were it not for Mara's thoughts indicating that she can't take Jacen in a straight fight. Only after she's wounded him does she feel confident enough to attack him head on.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sorry, other authors don't portray feats as impressive as Drew. Can't remember any comparably impressive TK feats by Caedus, Luke or any other characters from over 70 novels with Luke and Solo's. The only Luke's impressive feat comes from DE but again what isn't impressive there?

You clearly need to read more about Luke.

In The Joiner King he telekinetically roots himself in the Force so powerfully that 'not even the black hole at the center of the universe could move him.'

He once dismantled Darth Vaders fortress brick by brick using TK. And then put it back together again.

He once walked across lava, something that would have disintegrated a normal human were he not protecting himself with a Force Shield.

He manipulated artificial black holes (Although I'm fuzzy on how he did that).

He did this.

He did this (The ship was inert, he did it entirely using the Force):

'Lando: "A ship with lightspeed engines that’ll take you from here to Tatooine in a nanosecond. But it drops through the atmosphere like a stray meteor. I’m telling you, this face of mine should be smashed as flat as a Hutt in heavy gravity."

Han: "So what happened?"

Lando: "It was Luke! He guided that ship down like it was an Ewok’s hang glider. Used the deflector shields to cushion our fall."

Han: "That’s great, but-"

Lando: "But, it was more than that, no one should have been able to land that ship. But after seeing what he did to that Imperial Walker, well he must have used the Force to help him. He’s growing strong, Han. Really strong. I haven’t seen anything like that since, since Vader."

Luke is a Force God.

Originally posted by Arhael
Evidence, please. Assumption = 0. If he used nexus, he would use it again. And it wasn't simple concern.

Obi-Wan specifically tells him to draw on the power of Mortis. C'mon son, at least watch the episode.

Originally posted by Arhael
Not exactly superior. He had plenty of visions killing Luke in first book of the series. And he expressed his confidence to Lumya:
"Think laterally," Lumiya said gently. "Luke can still take you in a lightsaber fight."

"I'm already a few steps ahead of him. Trust me."

Visions don't count.

Wow, once again I must fall back on: Jacen is friggin' crazy.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke and Bane didn't go through Verger's training to embrace pain, so it pointless to bring their examples. In fight with Nyax Luke struggled against pain but Tahiri stood up ignoring it. Jacen on getting his hand chopped electrocuted Jaina nearly to death, doesn' look like it affects him at all.

Did I once mention pain? I'm talking about their physical injuries. As far as I know Luke wasn't in any pain and Bane would later be in constant agony for 10 years without it affecting his abilities or concentration, yet when his body was crippled by poison he can't use the Force properly. Pain is not the problem, its Jacen's injuries that would have affected him.

Jacen can continue because losing a hand wouldn't hinder him very much. However, in Sacrifice his whole body was crushed and he struggled to even stand up afterwards. He was in a crippled condition.

Originally posted by Arhael
He didn't just pushed, he blasted it, it was even compared to detonation.
Look at Yoda's best TK feat, when he is holding that pillar in AotC. Not as impressive as moving Star Destroyer or exploding droids in million pieces. Even Luke in books never displayed any impressive TK apart from directly handling others.

Actually Yoda's best feat would be this:

BfNwkqmAfXc&feature=relmfu

1.10 to 1.55

And I've already proven you wrong about Luke.

Originally posted by Arhael
Very nice. 👆

Thanks.

Originally posted by Arhael
I've seen him suffering from trying to drain her. But suffering does not equate to being weakened. And, yes, then he was weakened by losing connection with Visas. Whole fight is subject to interpretation. But it doesn't matter, we are still left with Sion and Traya...

No it isn't, he was weakened. At the start of the fight he flat out defeats the party with the Force. Only after being weakened can they break his hold and actually fight him without just instantly being defeated. And he was still too powerful, and Visas explicitly says 'He's still too strong!' Only when she weakens him a further time can they defeat him.

And yes, theres still them, but they aren't nearly as powerful as Nihilus was so your list doesn't matter as much. It goes Sion<Traya<Exile<Nyriss<Revan<Vitiate. Not nearly as ludicrous, nor does it establish that Vitiate is the most powerful Sith Lord by itself.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin like Kenobi didn't use Force offensively. You even provided Jedi code for that. 👆

Objection! Why would he need to use the Force offensively?! He could have defended himself against Dooku, using defensive powers like Force Barrier or Force Absorb. If all it takes is power, then Dooku shouldn't have been able to touch Anakin because Anakin is probably the most powerful being in Star Wars excepting maybe Abeloth, so his defensive capabilities should have been through the roof. But that isn't the case, because Anakin was not a master at using the Force. His skill was inadequate.

Originally posted by Arhael
I gave you evidence of two characters learning a technique on small scale and later utilizing on beyond any limits.
Now you provide your prove. With TK I agree, they need skill as it can be utilized in all sorts of ways. But if considering single technique like Force push, it will depend utterly on Force attunment. With lightning perhaps they can learn to shoot more precisely but it's intensity depends on their power. And as prove both Luke's and Jaina's first experience killed Vongs.

I did give you proof. The Complete Encyclopedia, page 285, concludes thus:

“The Jedi Knights discovered that the Force was accessible to all living beings through the presence of midichlorians in their cells. The more midichlorians inhabiting a being’s cells, the more the being was able to connect to the Force. However, a high concentration of midichlorians did not guarantee a being control of the Force. Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.”

This states flat out that they only way to become better at using the Force is through training and skill.

Originally posted by Arhael
Switch of your logic and stick to what is in canon:
"This gave Palpatine the opportunity to blast Windu with Force lightning, sending him out a window to his death." - Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

That.... is really ****ing stupid.

Originally posted by Arhael
Whatever opinion suits you, I don't really care anymore.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Arhael
Read about Hetrir. At least from wookieepedia.

Can't you just tell me? I'm not seeing anything relevent on his Wookie page.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke got dominated and was even beakoning Mara to join. And if she wasn't there, he would not break. You value quantity above quality. Vitiate is quantity, Nyax - quality.

Quantity has a quality of its own. Vitiate mentally dominated hundreds of trained Sith Lords. That is the most impressive telepathic feat in Star Wars. The only contenders imo would be Luke contacting Jedi across the entire galaxy and Sidious mentally dominating billions on Coruscant.

S

Originally posted by Arhael
ame I could ask about bones as author didn't go in details either.

Double Objection!!!! He did:

'The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.'

As I recall I only said that Bone did not melt, bone is quite capable of being reduced to ash, which is what happened.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nice thinking. By your logic Hidden one was increasing his effort for nothing. 👆

No, he probably thought the task of having to both block lightning and root himself against the wind would be too great to do at the same time. That doesn't mean that Luke struggled more though.

On closer examination it would seem that I misinterpreted your post about Luke dismantling Jacen's StealthX. I can see why you'd think it was the other StealthX's with the grapple arms, but that wouldn't explain why Jacen heard noises inside his ship. Nor would they have ripped his seat out of its runners without doing anything to the rest of the ship. Its pretty obvious that it was Luke using the Force on him, and that is what the text says.

But I can see now that you weren't lying so I withdraw my accusation.

It does seem to be Luke ripping apart his ship though as Jacen thinks that he (Luke) is ripping apart the ship. Plus he attempts to block Luke but utterly fails.

Thats my impression. Heres the whole thing:

'Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing. Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, al-most blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.

They'd tried to cripple the StealthX and grab him, air-frame and all, right in the middle of the fleet. Brazen; in-credible. He'd never allow anyone but his own apprentice to fly a StealthX again, not even an ordinary pilot. Luke was still close behind, feeling as if he were actually leaning on his shoulder; Caedus switched to raw instinct. He looped around, weaving between cruisers spaced at regular intervals-someone must have picked him up on visual by now, surely? - and then maneuvered to line up the auxiliaries with the Anakin Solo, accelerating. He'd either hit it right or he'd crash, but if the other StealthX tried to take him at this velocity from a head-on intercept it'd rip them both apart.'

The other StealthX was coming at him, not gripping him already. It was all Luke.

Oh, yeah that defiantly indicates Luke was ripping apart the ship.

I rest my case.

Edit: Also reading the section before that is hilarious for how swelled Caedus' head is. He keeps thinking that no-one could possibly be tricking him with an illusion (which is exactly whats happening) because he 'had complete mastery of the Force.' What a loser.

Objection! That doesn't mean that they're not the same technique! Only that Luke used it better and more powerfully than those two did. Nothing else.

What, Force Choke?

Force choke is TK applied on throat. Which is considered darkside power because it makes others suffer or kills. Same way electric judgement makes others suffer or kills.

You called me foolish, yet, I gave my reasoning and canon examples. Now either you give your evidence that it is lightside power or apologize for being unreasonably rude.

No, that wasn't the only way to free hmself. He could have resisted Luke's TK with his own TK, like when he blew the rubble off of himself, only more controlled.

But let me show how strong Luke can be with offensive TK:
"Luke extended himself toward the glow, slamming his Force presence into Welk. It was like trying to push Qoribu out of orbit. Welk continued to come bringing his blade around in a brazen full-reach attack." - Not very impressive, is it? 😉

And I've given you plenty of evidence showing that Luke could have pinned him if he had wanted to. The above quote neatly destroys your argument.

Thank you for providing yet more evidence for why Jacen is nowhere near Luke in terms of TK.

Jacen went flying" - As you see it doesn't prove that Luke's TK is superior. Luke had to feint a move to catch him by surprice. In other words Luke skillfuly caught him off guard. However, Jacen utilized TK on Luke without fainting any moves. And Luke still failed to counter it in any way and slammed facefirst to the floor. But yes, it was just a fixture, nothing impressive as you said...

Abeloth melted a ****ing city just by getting angry. 😐

Which would apply were it not for Mara's thoughts indicating that she can't take Jacen in a straight fight. Only after she's wounded him does she feel confident enough to attack him head on.

You clearly need to read more about Luke.

Luke is a Force God.

Yes, Luke walked through lava and again Jacen has comparable feat of making immensely srong Force barrier, which he demonstrated by blocking orbital lazer bombardment:
"Zekk took a cannon blast full on his blade and was driven to his knees. Jaina spun to his side and tapped two more bolts away, only to find herself badly out of position as a third dropped toward her head.

Zekk's lightsaber swept up just centimeters from her face, catching the bolt on the blade tip and sending it zipping across the dune.
...
Jacen holding his hand above their heads, cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before."

Also, Jacen at one point empowered Leia same way as Luke - Jaina.

Indeed, Luke is Force god. But he is not far above others. As I showed Jacen is comparable to Luke in some cases and their fight was nearly equal, both got battered very badly. Mara fought against Nyax as good as Luke both mentally and with lightsaber, it puts her not far behind him.

You mentioned best Luke's feats but look at these ones:

"Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.

But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh.

Luke smiled at the man" - Luke compared him to Kyle and was clearly above him but still fails to outperform him and the Sith manages to run away. Clearly not as impressive as Jacen tooling Kyle and 3 other Jedi, while safely observing surroundings and Kyle doesn't get his leg chopped off only because of coordination with battle-meld.

And this:
" One of the two rearmost Witches diverted her lightning to Vestara. The Sith girl caught it on her blade and was forced backward, taking slow steps and skidding slightly as the energy compelled her into unwilling retreat.
Pushing, summoning his willpower and technique in the Force, he walked toward his Witch at the same rate Vestara retreated before hers.
He felt the new attack in the Force before he detected its direct effects. There was a pulse of energy from all along the tree line. Then wind howled out of the forest and rushed against him, battering him, adding its strength to that of the lightning.

He couldn't advance against it, so he rooted himself in place." - Sounds good and impressive but only until next quote from same book:
"A glowing, twisting, crackling arc of purple-blue erupted from her hand and slammed into Dresdema's chest.

She felt her body convulse, felt and saw her hair stand on end. It was lightning, far more concentrated than that which the Nightsisters knew how to hurl. Dresdema jerked and spasmed, her body racked with pain. It did not deprive her of her senses, but she could not weave her spell, could not pick up her spear. She stumbled, fell to one knee" - So. Luke summons his will power and only slowly walks against weak lightning of a witch incomparable to a random Sith and completely stops, when wind added. Moreover, Sith lightning while is described much stronger, doesn't incinirate her and can't even kill. And in comparison Nyriss lightning reaps barrier and instantly turns into pile of ash. And Vitiate's lightning is much more powerful than hers. So do we conclude that Luke has no chance even against Nyriss? This is the reason why I talk about Force portrayal. Drew makes their characters so strong, that they would beat anyone from older era no sweat. And with such tremendous portrayal difference adequate comparisons are impossible. It's like comparing Harry Potter to Gandalf.

Obi-Wan specifically tells him to draw on the power of Mortis. C'mon son, at least watch the episode.

Wow, once again I must fall back on: Jacen is friggin' crazy.

Objection! Why would he need to use the Force offensively?! He could have defended himself against Dooku, using defensive powers like Force Barrier or Force Absorb. If all it takes is power, then Dooku shouldn't have been able to touch Anakin because Anakin is probably the most powerful being in Star Wars excepting maybe Abeloth, so his defensive capabilities should have been through the roof. But that isn't the case, because Anakin was not a master at using the Force. His skill was inadequate.

But I talk about separate techniques. Unskilled use of lightning is just pouring full power into single target. Skilled - is when Dooku catches his opponents off guard like Anakin two times, when he utilizes lightning with TK simultaniously or when using against more than one foe like Ventress with two witches.

This states flat out that they only way to become better at using the Force is through training and skill.

And again same way Luke learned mnemoterapy and utilized it on limits of his power against Abeloth.

And again I remind you about Luke's and Jaina's lightning as it was immensely powerful from beginning, while Dooku's even years later didn't compare.

That.... is really ****ing stupid.

Concession accepted.

Can't you just tell me? I'm not seeing anything relevent on his Wookie page.

Quantity has a quality of its own. Vitiate mentally dominated hundreds of trained Sith Lords. That is the most impressive telepathic feat in Star Wars. The only contenders imo would be Luke contacting Jedi across the entire galaxy and Sidious mentally dominating billions on Coruscant.

There was, however, a new priority. He was to switch off his lightsaber and then go attack the Yuuzhan Vong. He leapt to his feet and turned his weapon off. He could see Mara and Tahiri doing the same" - His mind domination works instantly, Luke didn't even have chance to prepare.
All you have is lots of hype from a story and one failed attempt with Revan. I have real evidence with far more effective mind domination that works even on prime Luke.

'The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.'

That doesn't mean that Luke struggled more though.

Originally posted by Arhael
Maybe that's why Luke never used it again. Also, electric judgment wasn't light side power either, Plo Koon refered to it as Force lightning and Order never said it is lightside power either and told him to meditate on it.

Force choke is TK applied on throat. Which is considered darkside power because it makes others suffer or kills. Same way electric judgement makes others suffer or kills.

You called me foolish, yet, I gave my reasoning and canon examples. Now either you give your evidence that it is lightside power or apologize for being unreasonably rude.

Lets begin with a fresh cup of coffee.

Plo Zoon said that he felt no anger or hate while using it and was calm and in control of his emotions, indicating that its a lightside power. Normally Force Lightning is powered by those negative emotions. Because of this as well as the obvious color difference, it is clearly different from Force Lightning, and the lack of negative emotions would indicate that it is a lightside power.

When the Jedi Order used their combined Wall of Light (a lightside power) on Exar Kun's forces it created a firestorm than burned Yavin, killing many. Just because a move kills does not stop it from being lightside.

The foolishness was simply a joke, as was every other time I called you a fool in my post. It's a quirk of the character whose gifs I was using at the time.

Originally posted by Arhael
You just trapped yourself. Jacen tried to stand up but he didn't try to enter Force contest, he didn't try to use TK [b]AT ALL and if not you, I wouldn't even realize that. Thank you. So in fact there was no Force contest to determine by how far Luke is superior.

In other words your "Luke could easily snap his neck" is only theory.[/b]

Only just figured that out did you? You're even more foolish than I thought.

While it is true that the text doesn't directly point out that he resisted using the Force, Jacen himself notes that he was taken by surprise. He didn't even know that Luke was pinning him until he tried to move. That was my point. Luke caught him by surprise and defeated him using the Force before Jacen could react. Luke could have killed him easily by snapping his neck when he caught him by surprise rather than throwing him across the room and pinning him to his chair. Just like he could have killed him easily later when he surprised Jacen yet again in Inferno.

Furthermore, it isn't a theory. As I showed you above there is an example of Jacen attempting to resist Luke's TK and Luke easily overpowers him. Even if Jacen had tried to resist Jacen he wouldn't have been able to.

Hmmm, smells like victory.

Originally posted by Arhael
But let me show how strong Luke can be with offensive TK:
"Luke extended himself toward the glow, slamming his Force presence into Welk. It was like trying to push Qoribu out of orbit. Welk continued to come bringing his blade around in a brazen full-reach attack." - Not very impressive, is it? 😉

Welk's powers were boosted by being connected to the Kilik Hive Mind.

Originally posted by Arhael
And you just confirmed that Jacen didn't try to resist with TK, when Luke pinned him. So that feat is invalid and proves nothing apart from the fact that Jacen was scared to confront him and didn't try to use TK as it would provoke Luke.

It's lucky I have another example of Luke clearly overpowering Jacen then, isn't it?

Originally posted by Arhael
"Luke [b]feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying" - As you see it doesn't prove that Luke's TK is superior. Luke had to feint a move to catch him by surprise. In other words Luke skillfully caught him off guard. However, Jacen utilized TK on Luke without fainting any moves. And Luke still failed to counter it in any way and slammed facefirst to the floor. But yes, it was just a fixture, nothing impressive as you said...[/b]

It just shows that Luke is superior at using his powers, even in the middle of combat, than Jacen.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ye, it's a good one. But I talk about combat situations. Her TK didn't kill anyone in combat, at most stunned. Her lightning didn't vaporize anyone either, although, the only ones she electrocuted were Corran Horn with absorb like Satele Shan's and Luke.

The fact that she wasn't able to kill anyone with her TK in combat only makes them out to be impressive fighters. Although I admit to my lack of knowledge on the matter as to whether she tried and failed since I didn't read the newest series.

But anyway this proves you wrong. Other characters than Vitiate have impressive feats.

Originally posted by Arhael
Because in combat he rivals Luke as he proved. Jaina with her equal potential was getting pawned hard in final combat, while Jacen had only one working arm. Kyle was getting tooled, while having 3 Jedi with him. It's not just his superior power, it is his combat skill combined with that power she feared.

Jacen might rival Luke purely in lightsaber combat. In terms of the Force however Luke continually establishes his dominance over Jacen. And it is the Force that is important here, nothing else.

Originally posted by Arhael
I know all of that. But Jacen has a few comparable feats as well.
Yes, Luke dismantled Fortress. But it was channeing effort. Jacen in comparison toppled sealing on Vongs burying them alive:
"and he remembered bubbling laughter exploding with malice into a shout of victory as he had reached up his hand and brought down the building around them."

Objection! As I recall that was a result of a one-time boost of anger. It's similar to when Luke became enraged and defeated Vader. That isn't is usual ability.

Besides, it seems like he channeled something to do that 'Frustration had compounded Jacen's fury; he had thrown himself outward seeking power to do these creatures harm...

And the storm above the crater had answered.'

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, Luke walked through lava and again Jacen has comparable feat of making immensely srong Force barrier, which he demonstrated by blocking orbital lazer bombardment:
"Zekk took a cannon blast full on his blade and was driven to his knees. Jaina spun to his side and tapped two more bolts away, only to find herself badly out of position as a third dropped toward her head.

Zekk's lightsaber swept up just centimeters from her face, catching the bolt on the blade tip and sending it zipping across the dune.
...
Jacen holding his hand above their heads, [b]cannon fire ricocheting away as though he held a deflector shield in his palm. That was something Jaina and Zekk had never seen before."[/b]

Objection again! That wasn't orbital bombardment it was a Drop Ship

'Jaina waved her hand, using the Force to clear a hole in the dust cloud. A black plume of entry smoke was blossoming against the yellow sky, descending from the dark sliver of the Chiss assault cruiser that was raining fire down on them.

"Drop ship!" Jaina shouted. "Be ready!"

"Iesei, take cover!" Zekk added.'

And as you provided in that quote, Jaina and Zekk deflect the blasts with their lightsabers, so they blasts weren't exactly that powerful.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, Luke is Force god. But he is not far above others. As I showed Jacen is comparable to Luke in some cases and their fight was nearly equal, both got battered very badly. Mara fought against Nyax as good as Luke both mentally and with lightsaber, it puts her not far behind him.

Your cases were wrong. Jacen does not compare to Luke in any aspect of the Force that makes him an impressive opponent for Mara. As I have shown therefore, Mara does not have the feats required to stand against Vitiate's TK or Force Lightning feats. She will be defeated. And rather easily at that.

Originally posted by Arhael
You mentioned best Luke's feats but look at these ones:

"Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.

But Luke, despite recent exertions, had had time to recover. He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lord's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh.

Luke smiled at the man" - Luke compared him to Kyle and was clearly above him but still fails to outperform him and the Sith manages to run away. Clearly not as impressive as Jacen tooling Kyle and 3 other Jedi, while safely observing surroundings and Kyle doesn't get his leg chopped off only because of coordination with battle-meld.

Careful, if you make Luke look unimpressive, all you do is make Jacen and Mara look unimpressive as well.

Anyway, Luke was clearly outperforming the man, and was still recovering. Just because it said he was recovered does not mean that he was fully recovered.

Besides which this is irrelevent to the thread. Mara was only able to match blades with Jacen when he was crippled. It's not like she was actually anywhere near him.

Originally posted by Arhael
And this:

Unfortunately I had to remove this to stay in the word limit.

Oh man what shitty ABC logic.

All it says is that it's more 'concentrated'. Did concentrated get changed in the dictionary while I wasn't looking so it means stronger now? No, it just means more concentrated. Concentrating an attack has nothing to do with power.

Besides which thats clearly PIS since the same damn thing happens in the case of the Hidden One and Luke is able to keep moving.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fine but it is still unique feat as he couldn't replicate it.

Exactly.

And it had nothing to do with his concern.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I agree with that. But what upsets me is that you accused me of making stuff up despite the fact that I back up nearly all my opinions with quotes from novels.

Cry me a river.

Originally posted by Arhael
First, Anakin did not reach his full potential. Second you talk about skillful Force utilization. Anakin might have been able to lift haviest objects or create strongest Force barriers. But he is still not skilled enough to anticipate Force attacks like some others. His Force use might still not be as instinctive comparing to others. He can still be not skilled enough to keep concentration on, when distracted. And he still can't multitask like some others.

But I talk about separate techniques. Unskilled use of lightning is just pouring full power into single target. Skilled - is when Dooku catches his opponents off guard like Anakin two times, when he utilizes lightning with TK simultaniously or when using against more than one foe like Ventress with two witches.

But Anakin couldn't lift the heaviest objects or create the strongest barriers. The heaviest thing he's lifted is a fricking statue. In his fight with Obi-Wan he visibly strains to defend himself against Obi-Wan using the Force against him, and Obi-Wan isn't nearly as powerful as Dooku is. For all Anakin's power as the Chosen One, and according to George Lucas he would have gone on to be twice as powerful as Sidious, he does not have the skill to use his power.

Originally posted by Arhael
We are not talking about whole Force but only single technique.
With training power grows and new techniques learned. On learning a technique it's strength depends on power and then they learn to utilize that technique effectively.
I can bring another example to support my opinion. Corran Horn tried to lift an object but, instead, unintentionally he produced illusion of lifting that object and it was so powerful that tricked everyone including even Luke. As you see his new technique reflected his power from beginning, all he needed is to learn to utilize it effectively.

And again same way Luke learned mnemoterapy and utilized it on limits of his power against Abeloth.

And again I remind you about Luke's and Jaina's lightning as it was immensely powerful from beginning, while Dooku's even years later didn't compare.

Just concede. I'm just going to repost the direct quote that says that "Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.”

It's canon. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Hetrir was kidnapping and training Force sensitive children. Desann took grown ones and let them absorb the valley. He, also, infused specific crystals with Valley power, then he picked a squad of skilled non-sencitive storm troopers, clad them into black armor and placed those crystals into their chests. Remember black troopers from game? Those were the only non-sencitives. And Luke discuss it with Kyle in the game.

Irrelevent and also irrelevent. Those are two different cases from this one. In Jedi Academy Tavion had access to the Staff of Ragnos which allows her to drain and requisition force energy. Never is it mentioned that Tavion is kidnapping force sensitive men and women and she doesn't have access to that many force sensitive ones under her command either.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is just a story. Vitiate failed to show a single example of mind domination. Sidious couldn't mind dominate Luke without corrupting him.
When Vitiate tried to mind dominate, Revan felt it and Force pushed him. But Nyax' mental attack was instant and it worked on prime Luke:
" Then he made a thought and drove it into their heads.
[b]It hit Luke like a razorbug fired straight through his forehead. Luke staggered under the pain. His back hit the irregular floor. He waved his lightsaber up and in front of him, a defensive form, but there was no follow-up blow for him to counter.

There was, however, a new priority. He was to switch off his lightsaber and then go attack the Yuuzhan Vong. He leapt to his feet and turned his weapon off. He could see Mara and Tahiri doing the same" - His mind domination works instantly, Luke didn't even have chance to prepare.
All you have is lots of hype from a story and one failed attempt with Revan. I have real evidence with far more effective mind domination that works even on prime Luke.[/b]

Objection! It isn't just as story. They confirm that it happened later in the book.

Who cares how fast it is? That doesn't make it superior to Vitiates or harder to resist. Hell, they did resist it remember? No-one has resisted Vitiates mind-control except with help from others. Vitiate's is immensely more powerful than Nyax's. Sure, maybe Nyas' is faster, but Vitiates is far more powerful and hasn't been resisted as easily as Nyax's was.

Also Revan didn't Force Push Vitiate. He needed to perform a fricking Light/Dark Superattack to stop him.

Originally posted by Arhael
It makes no sence. Lightning gives strong impact, ashes were ment to be blasted all over the place instead of forming a pile.

She was instantly disintegrated before the impact could hit her.

Originally posted by Arhael
It does, it's just you refuse to accept it. Above I gave you quote, where Luke was walking towards lightning but was forced to root himself in one place as it made him struggle more. He rooted himself in this case as well, hence, struggled more.

And yet against the Hidden One he did keep moving. Its just PIS, nothing more.

Plo Zoon said that he felt no anger or hate while using it and was calm and in control of his emotions, indicating that its a lightside power...

Jacen's emerald lightning:
"Jacen felt rage building in him, a red fury that was his response to his own despair. The blaster hummed empty and he threw it at the warrior. And then he remembered the power he could call upon, the power fueled by the kind of despair and anger he felt now and had felt before, and he hurled it at the warrior, the brilliant emerald fire that lanced from his fingertips The Force lightning threw the first rank of Yuuzhan Vong back into their comrades, and in the confusion Jacen launched another blaze of fire. He hadn't killed them-the murderous form of lightning was a dark side weapon-but they wouldn't be waking for a long time." - As you see Jacen's rage produced emerald lightnig but still he didn't consider it darkside power as he didn't kill with it.

Yet, lightside, also, can produce lightning. Leia's stomach zapped Palpatine. 😄
Anakin during Oneness had "miniature forks of lightning dancing off his arms and legs". Jacen used lightning on Onimi during his Oneness.
Overally, lightning is a technique, which is neither light nor darkside power, how it is used is determined by intentions.
So I amend myself about saying that Luke used darkside power, his main intention was to save Jacen. Moreover, in book it doesn't say that Slayer got killed by it, I guess "instant kill" is another bullshit from wookieepedia.

Also, wall of light is not a killing power. I believe that fire storm was side effect from struggle between light and dark like explosion caused by Yoda and Palpatine. I checked two sources, it says that Kun survived by draining all remaining Massasi but no mention about Wall of Light, will check other sources at home.

Only just figured that out did you? You're even more foolish than I thought.

Luke could have killed him easily by snapping his neck when he caught him by surprise rather than throwing him across the room and pinning him to his chair. Just like he could have killed him easily later when he surprised Jacen yet again in Inferno.

Furthermore, it isn't a theory. As I showed you above there is an example of Jacen attempting to resist Luke's TK and Luke easily overpowers him. Even if Jacen had tried to resist Jacen he wouldn't have been able to.

Something clipped him from underneath the fuselage this time, shaking his teeth" - He neither felt Luke nor any Force exertion. And after he discovered about other Jedi and ship with, he stopped those assumptions. Jacen just got fooled like with illusions.

It's lucky I have another example of Luke clearly overpowering Jacen then, isn't it?

It just shows that Luke is superior at using his powers, even in the middle of combat, than Jacen.

The fact that she wasn't able to kill anyone with her TK in combat only makes them out to be impressive fighters.

But anyway this proves you wrong. Other characters than Vitiate have impressive feats.

I talk about actual combat.
Bane's Force blast is described as "would have done this and that" and Kaz'im puts up barrier but temple still topples. We can safely say that attack was super powerful and Kas'im's resistance is as good.
Abeloth makes Force wave and everyone gets stunned. We are left to assume how strong that attack was and what resistance other characters put up.

Revan casualy absorbs lightning that instantly incinirates and Vitiate's lightning is infinitively more powerful. We safely conclude that Revan's absorb and Vitiate's lightning are rediculously super potent.
Abeloth electrocuts Luke and Coran. We are left to assume how potent was her lightning, Luke's resistance and Corran's Force absorb.

With Tahiri first thing Abeloth tries is mind domination and Tahiri barely counters it by withdrawing from the Force and on seeing her she easily pulls her with TK to her grasp. She takes under her mind control nearly every one around, moves blastboats with TK and as you said melts City.
But we never see her trying to overpower Luke with either TK or mind domination. We are left to assume that she is either retarder or Luke is just so strong.

Jacen might rival Luke purely in lightsaber combat. In terms of the Force however Luke continually establishes his dominance over Jacen. And it is the Force that is important here, nothing else.

Objection! As I recall that was a result of a one-time boost of anger. It's similar to when Luke became enraged and defeated Vader. That isn't is usual ability.

[quite]Objection again! That wasn't orbital bombardment it was a Drop Ship

And as you provided in that quote, Jaina and Zekk deflect the blasts with their lightsabers, so they blasts weren't exactly that powerful.[/quote]
How da hell it matters? I didn't say it was Star Destroyer, I didn't even check who was shooting.

What you mean weren't that powerful? It put Zekk on his knees and nearly killed Jaina. It was THAT powerful.

Your cases were wrong.

Careful, if you make Luke look unimpressive, all you do is make Jacen and Mara look unimpressive as well.

Anyway, Luke was clearly outperforming the man, and was still recovering. Just because it said he was recovered does not mean that he was fully recovered.

And your assumption about "still recovering" has no basis. But it's fine. Who would believe that Luke would have longer than 5 sec fight with a random Sith...

Did concentrated get changed in the dictionary while I wasn't looking so it means stronger now?

Exactly.

And it had nothing to do with his concern.

Just concede. I'm just going to repost the direct quote that says that "Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.&#8221;

It's canon. Deal with it.

Luke learned mnemoterapy within day or two and he utilized it to immense extend by reaping Kallista essence out of Abeloth, which is far beyond than what any master of this ability could ever do.

Jaina's first lightning had been extremely potent.

Corran's first ever illusion worked even on Luke. Corran could absorb at most a few blaster bolts but later absorbed multiple detonations in one go and used that power to produce the strongest illusion he could ever do.

All of them could do it because they already were proficient in harnessing power of the Force.

What to concede??? I gave you multiple proves that after learning new abilities their strength wholly depends on power and emotions. Now you provide a single prove that lightning needs to be mastered to be stronger.

Irrelevent and also irrelevent.

"The Dark Jedi brought his band of Empire Youth students with him to absorb the Valley's power, forming an army of dark warriors called the Reborn. He also took with him a small portion of his stormtroopers, and they became shadowtroopers, Force-sensitive soldiers armed with lightsabers and encased in cortosis armor enhanced by Artusian crystals."

Objection! It isn't just as story. They confirm that it happened later in the book.

Who cares how fast it is? That doesn't make it superior to Vitiates or harder to resist. Hell, they did resist it remember? No-one has resisted Vitiates mind-control except with help from others. Vitiate's is immensely more powerful than Nyax's. Sure, maybe Nyas' is faster, but Vitiates is far more powerful and hasn't been resisted as easily as Nyax's was.

Again, Vitiate DID NOT demonstrate his mind domination a single time. He needed to render Jedi team unconscious to mind dominate them. I am not impressed. This is my face --> 😐

Also Revan didn't Force Push Vitiate. He needed to perform a fricking Light/Dark Superattack to stop him.

She was instantly disintegrated before the impact could hit her.

You provided yourself video, where Yoda like a Force God collapsed two star ships together, while in film had to put full effort to lift a pillar. Our argument is pointless because of significant portrayal difference. Drew wins, I give up.

And yet against the Hidden One he did keep moving. Its just PIS, nothing more.

Originally posted by Arhael
Drew wins, I give up

As in seriously give up?

Originally posted by Nephthys
As in seriously give up?

So you want me to reply, or have you admitted that Vitiate would kick Mara's ass?

Originally posted by Nephthys
So you want me to reply, or have you admitted that Vitiate would kick Mara's ass?

To be honest all we could say we did. The rest is lowballing, over hyping, assuming, believing and theorizing. And as I said portrayal is too different for adequate comparison. Like that cartoon Yoda comparing to film Yoda.