Women vs Team Hulk

Originally posted by Stoic
Of course not, there is always context to him ever going outside of the bounds that writers deem safe in order to keep his battles competitive. There are as you know other things and powers in fiction that confound strength alone. If you banned the Hulk from threads, you would also need to ban the Flash, Amazo, the Fury, and other deus ex types. Superman may fall into this power band as well when he decides to be argued against after a lengthy sun dip.

Superman would definitely be up there, considering his dynamic strength and stuff like the Infinite Book, as ridiculous as it is.

So are you saying then, that we shouldn't ban him, and only use his actual feats in battles? Which would be what I'm actually striving for.

Originally posted by -Pr-
But that's what it leads to. If people are really going to argue that Hulk auto-wins every physical battle because he has an infinite ability to get stronger, then he becomes pretty much unusable on the forum.

Should I just ban Hulk threads as there would be no point to them?

Abstracts are routinely stated to have or have access to or be able to tap infinite power. We also have Marvel demonstrating that to their thinking, there are orders of infinite.

So, if you do hypothetically have a weight-lifting contest between Hulk and Galactus, it would go on until Hulk gave up, because Galactus has access to all the energy in 616, plus whatever energies fuel Hulk (Galactus has already consumed the infinite energies of Hyperstorm and he has more than once shown the ability to consume other forms of energy - Mephisto's realm for example).

If it was instead a tug-of-war, with a time limit, then Galactus would win every single time as he operates at a vastly greater level than Hulk does.

Also, Hulk's feats must be indicative of a certain level, destroying the dark dimension is a legitimate skyfather-y feat, you can extrapolate from that feat that he can - and would - one-shot kill heralds, because that was demonstrated with low to mid heralds at the very least.

Whether he has the power to affect Abstracts ... that requires a higher order feat to provide some basis for such argument.

This is one of the reasons why the "unstoppable" "classic" Juggernaut should never be facing off against sky fathers, he simply doesn't have anything to back-up that 'argument'.

Originally posted by janus77
Actually no, it doesn't.

Abstracts are routinely stated to have or have access to or be able to tap infinite power. We also have Marvel demonstrating that to their thinking, there are orders of infinite.

So, if you do hypothetically have a weight-lifting contest between Hulk and Galactus, it would go on until Hulk gave up, because Galactus has access to all the energy in 616, plus whatever energies fuel Hulk (Galactus has already consumed the infinite energies of Hyperstorm and he has more than once shown the ability to consume other forms of energy - Mephisto's realm for example).

If it was instead a tug-of-war, with a time limit, then Galactus would win every single time as he operates at a vastly greater level than Hulk does.

Also, Hulk's feats must be indicative of a certain level, destroying the dark dimension is a legitimate skyfather-y feat, you can extrapolate from that feat that he can - and would - one-shot kill heralds, because that was demonstrated with low to mid heralds at the very least.

Whether he has the power to affect Abstracts ... that requires a higher order feat to provide some basis for such argument.

This is one of the reasons why the "unstoppable" "classic" Juggernaut should never be facing off against sky fathers, he simply doesn't have anything to back-up that 'argument'.

So you agree, then, that we should stick to feats?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman would definitely be up there, considering his dynamic strength and stuff like the Infinite Book, as ridiculous as it is.

So are you saying then, that we shouldn't ban him, and only use his actual feats in battles? Which would be what I'm actually striving for.

Well his feats alone would ignore his power set. To ignore this would be unfair. Should we ignore the idea that the Flash could be in 4000 different places at once when tapping deeper into the Speed Force? No of course not. Not unlike the Flash, the Hulk taps into an extra dimensional force, which is written in his bio, which is where he gets the extra mass and strength from. if it's good enough for one character, then it has to be good enough for another.

Originally posted by -Pr-
So you agree, then, that we should stick to feats?

your idea that he should be given a cap on how strong he can grow, is simply and categorically rejected by Marvel. That's the nub of it really.

Originally posted by Stoic
Thor can teleport as well, but he was caught in it like a fly in a web. They won't escape, and if they do the others will be trapped, and WB Hulk, and Thanos will destroy Barda, and Maxi.

Thor is CIS incarnate. That means nothing.

Originally posted by janus77
you are biased, see your desire to plead a special case when it comes to Hulk.

I can't believe you have the gall to call someone on this site biased.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Thor is CIS incarnate. That means nothing.

Or that the tech from Thanos simply has the ability to imprison even those that can teleport. Call it CIS, or PIS if you'd like, but it is canon. Besides it's not like they really need to trap those two in cubes, they could just lay them out. Are you saying that they would be a match for Thanos and the Hulk? I mean what is your point? If I were them I would think it safer to remain trapped, because the alternative would be far worse.

Originally posted by Stoic
Well his feats alone would ignore his power set. To ignore this would be unfair. Should we ignore the idea that the Flash could be in 4000 different places at once when tapping deeper into the Speed Force? No of course not. Not unlike the Flash, the Hulk taps into an extra dimensional force, which is written in his bio, which is where he gets the extra mass and strength from. if it's good enough for one character, then it has to be good enough for another.

Then what do you suggest we do?

Originally posted by janus77
that's a silly response from you, isn't it?
my whole point has been to acknowledge the feat, rather than ignore it or underplay it or try to find ways of diminishing it so that you can "make a fight of it".

your idea that he should be given a cap on how strong he can grow, is simply and categorically rejected by Marvel. That's the nub of it really.

What are you even talking about?

Not once did I say we should disregard that (or any) feat. Where the hell did you get that from?

I never said he should be given a cap. Everyone and their mother knows that the madder he gets, the stronger he gets. What I'm talking about, is keeping Hulk, like we do with every other character on this forum, bound by the feats they have performed in comics, as we can't define potential and how large it will grow.

Otherwise it's just a guessing game.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I can't believe you have the gall to call someone on this site biased.

This manifests in an extreme 'sensitivity' to Hulk's performances in threads, using everything from mocking and baiting to pure ad hominem (Carver being the usual recipient of such bullying - even from certain mods).

It's the irrationality of the group-mind that really has made me pay attention, and at times prod/poke it with some calculated posts.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Then what do you suggest we do?

What are you even talking about?

Not once did I say we should disregard that (or any) feat. Where the hell did you get that from?

I never said he should be given a cap. Everyone and their mother knows that the madder he gets, the stronger he gets. What I'm talking about, is keeping Hulk, like we do with every other character on this forum, bound by the feats they have performed in comics, as we can't define potential and how large it will grow.

Otherwise it's just a guessing game.

Well, I guess we just keep it moving. The Hulk's character will never allow him to go world breaker in a populace, but in some hellish who gives a fig about dimension... you see where I'm going? My guess is to keep it in character. Look at the Flash, he is at norm a High Herald due to his impossible speed, but he can go beyond those constraints. I mean who would be able to beat a guy that hit them with 1000 earth weights per second? Speed does equal mass. Crazy right?

Originally posted by Stoic
Or that the tech from Thanos simply has the ability to imprison even those that can teleport. Call it CIS, or PIS if you'd like, but it is canon. Besides it's not like they really need to trap those two in cubes, they could just lay them out. Are you saying that they would be a match for Thanos and the Hulk? I mean what is your point? If I were them I would think it safer to remain trapped, because the alternative would be far worse.

You could be right. But my point is that Thor not doing something that he could do is hardly evidence of anything. The guy barely even remembers to use lightning half the time.

Originally posted by janus77
you call it gall, I just call it stating the obvious.
KMC is pretty much a Thor and Thanos crowd, with the rabidness of the latter most obvious.

This manifests in an extreme 'sensitivity' to Hulk's performances in threads, using everything from mocking and baiting to pure ad hominem (Carver being the usual recipient of such bullying - even from certain mods).

It's the irrationality of the group-mind that really has made me pay attention, and at times prod/poke it with some calculated posts.

You think the SS could beat Superman in a H2H fight 6-7 times, whereas most unbiased people would say SS is lucky to get ONE win. Everyone on this site is biased to some degree, hell, I'm guilty of it too, but you're one of the worst.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
You think the SS could beat Superman in a H2H fight 6-7 times, whereas most unbiased people would say SS is lucky to get ONE win. Everyone on this site is biased to some degree, hell, I'm guilty of it too, but you're one of the worst.

I'm not even bothering with his ridiculously high-end feats here, just with his more or less average showings.

Originally posted by janus77
"most unbiased"? I doubt that. Surfer has the feats to give him an average that would put him in Superman's range, on top of that he has no stamina problems and his durability is insane (from day one he has shown the capacity to no-sell Savage Hulk, Abomination etc). So why wouldn't it be a reasonable position to take?

I'm not even bothering with his ridiculously high-end feats here, just with his more or less average showings.

So you doubt you're the most unbiased? I meant "most biased" obviously... Anyway, SS's durability is his major weak point in my opinion. I've always thought the big three heralds in terms of overall power were Superman, SS and Thor, and in terms of strength and durability, Supes blows both of the other two away (although Thor has been steadily declining). Luckily for the SS he has a lot of other powers to make up for it, which makes them pretty much equal IMO.

Marvel's always depicted Surfer as being very powerful, physically. From his prolonged fight with Lunatik (a Lobo rip-off) to his many fights with Hulk, he has never lacked for strength.

imo Surfer is >= Superman, in physical stats when strength and durability are considered together and, when you add in stamina Surfer decisively wins it.

Surfer has high-end feats of physical strength and durability that make him more than a match for most of the non-PreC Superman stuff. On top of that, you also have Surfer's ability to amp his stats further with all types of energy.

Originally posted by janus77
Marvel's always depicted Surfer as being very powerful, physically. From his prolonged fight with Lunatik (a Lobo rip-off) to his many fights with Hulk, he has never lacked for strength.

imo Surfer is >= Superman, in physical stats when strength and durability are considered together and, when you add in stamina Surfer decisively wins it.

Surfer has high-end feats of physical strength and durability that make him more than a match for most of the non-PreC Superman stuff. On top of that, you also have Surfer's ability to amp his stats further with all types of energy.

Marvel's ALWAYS written SS physically very powerful? Really?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
Marvel's ALWAYS written SS physically very powerful? Really?

What is the SS's best strength feat? Superman's is lifting infinite weight.

What's the SS's best durability feat? Superman's is surviving an explosion equal to 52 supernovas while weakened.

Travel speed is a wash.

Combat speed is a huge advantage to Superman, to the point where it's ridiculous to compare them.

Originally posted by janus77
If you want to point to BP's armbar you're more than welcome to, but I didn't think I was going to have to include jobbing instances too.

I'm not even counting that (That's clearly PIS). The SS has consistently been written with a glass jaw though. Physically he's a match for Thor, who himself is nowhere close to Superman physically.