TFU Vader and TFU Marek vs. Sidious

Originally posted by Rookwood
Doy.

Wait? You think WIndu is superior to Yoda?! lol

Originally posted by Rookwood
Idiot - he let up because if Windu had continued to deflect his own searing Lightning back into his face, he would have died.

That's why he was screwed either way - it didn't matter that Mace was having a difficult time holding back his Lightning - Sidious's Lightning was returning back into it's source anyway, and Sidious was the only one in danger of dying of it at that point in time.

Any longer and Sidious would have fried to death, and he knew it. So he had no choice but to stop. Mace had him beaten, either way.

If you are going to insult someone for being wrong... Make sure you are correct.

From the novel:

'"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..."

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

"Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.'

Oh, look at that. Mace Windu was unable to hold the lightning back any longer.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Yah, he really is. - Gotta give credit where it's due.

Nah, his logic is shit as anyone with a sane view will see. Sure, Mace may be superior to Starkiller. But the way he argued it is wrong.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What's that from?

You mean from Galen's crazy hallucinations in that hut?

How is that acceptable evidence for anything, it isn't real.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean from Galen's crazy hallucinations in that hut?

How is that acceptable evidence for anything, it isn't real.

Originally posted by ares834
Wait? You think WIndu is superior to Yoda?! lol

Uh, dur, dur, dur.. I don't know dumbshit, what do you think?

Who would have killed Sidious? Mace.

I'd call being able to murder the Dark Lord of the Sith pretty decent evidence of being superior. But call me crazy.

Originally posted by ares834

If you are going to insult someone for being wrong... Make sure you are correct.

From the novel:

'"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..."

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

"Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.'

Oh, look at that. Mace Windu was unable to hold the lightning back any longer.

- I was being descriptive - you're a fvcking idiot - I was going by the film, which holds higher Canon than the novel, and the novel - in addition to the retarded bullshit you just added to unintentionally embarrass yourself, also contained:

- Anakin, hovering outside the Chancellor's Office window, and witnessing the battle between Sidious and the four Jedi Masters.

- Anakin, rushing to the Chancellor's Office but instead of just walking in like the movie - he is bared by Shaak Ti from entering.

- Anakin walking in to witness the duel between Sidious and Windu (Instead of just walking in after Sidious has been disarmed and knocked down as in the film)

- And then instead of kicking Sidious in the jaw as he did in the film, Mace instead slices Sidious's lightsaber in two.

And those were just the differences between the movie and novelization in that part of the story - with the rest of the book containing contradicting material between both mediums as well.

So what other non-Canon bullshit are you going to reference now, you fvcking retard?

The movie holds a higher Canon over the novel - and the movie doesn't have any of the bullshit lines from Mace that you stupidly listed above.

Now in the movie - which is the higher Canon - the lines are listed:

(From the actual Film)

~

(Anakin walks in after Sidious has been defeated)

Palpatine: "Anakin, I told you it would come to this. I was right. The Jedi are taking over."

Mace: "The oppression of the Sith, will never return! You have lost!"

Palpatine: "No..no..you will die!"

(Palpatine unleashes streams of Lightning at Mace, who brings his lightsaber up and begins reflecting them)

Palpatine: "Traitor!"

Mace: "He is the traitor!"

(Mace stands strong and reflects bolts back into Palpatine, who looks up at Anakin, speaking weakly)

Sidious: "I have the power to save the one you love.."

Sidious: "You must choose.."

Mace: "Don't listen to him, Anakin!"

(Mace pushes the lightning back into Sidious hard, causing Sidious's eyes to close momentarily and his face to contort in weakness)

Sidious: "Don't let him kill me..

Sidious: "I can't hold it any longer..I..I..I..I..I can't..too weak.."

Sidious: "Anakin.. help me..help me."

(Mace finishes reflecting the Lightning back into Sidious, as Sidious stops and lays his hands down, his head resting back on the ledge)

Sidious: (Weakly) "Ahh..I.I.I.I..can't hold him any longer.."

Mace: "I am going to end this, once and for all!"

~

Okay - that's the higher Canon Movie - line for line - verbatim.

Gee, I don't see any dumb bullshit about Mace not being able to hold Sidious in there, did you?

Seemed like it was 100% the opposite. Idiot.

I don't know whether your mother's umbilical cord strangled you while you were in the womb, and happened to cut off some blood flow to your brain, but I'd be willing to bet that probably did happen.

- So in the future, if you're going to assume someone is being insulting towards you - even though they're just being descriptive of how fvcking stupid you actually are - I would make sure to be right about what you type - Retard.

Now go back to your crib and eat some more baby food there.

Originally posted by ares834

Nah, his logic is shit as anyone with a sane view will see. Sure, Mace may be superior to Starkiller. But the way he argued it is wrong.

- No, yeah, he's wrong about things sometimes - but he was right this time, and he deserves kudos for that.

I give credit where it's due, just like I give discredit where it's due.

Originally posted by Rookwood
Uh, dur, dur, dur.. I don't know dumbshit, what do you think?

Who would have killed Sidious? Mace.

I'd call being able to murder the Dark Lord of the Sith pretty decent evidence of being superior. But call me crazy.

Then you fail to take into consideration multiple circumstances such as Mace Windu using Vaapad to defeat Sidious.

You're relying on the common ABC argument which is flawed when it comes to character battles.

Originally posted by Rookwood - I was being descriptive - you're a fvcking idiot - I was going by the film, which holds higher Canon than the novel, and the novel - in addition to the retarded bullshit you just added to unintentionally embarrass yourself, also contained:

- Anakin, hovering outside the Chancellor's Office window, and witnessing the battle between Sidious and the four Jedi Masters.

- Anakin, rushing to the Chancellor's Office but instead of just walking in like the movie - he is bared by Shaak Ti from entering.

- Anakin walking in to witness the duel between Sidious and Windu (Instead of just walking in after Sidious has been disarmed and knocked down as in the film)

- And then instead of kicking Sidious in the jaw as he did in the film, Mace instead slices Sidious's lightsaber in two.

And those were just the differences between the movie and novelization in that part of the story - with the rest of the book containing contradicting material between both mediums as well.

So what other non-Canon bullshit are you going to reference now, you fvcking retard?

Seriously, what the **** is you're god damn problem? Why the hell do you get so gad damned aggressive? Please, at least attempt at keeping some sense of civility.

And, yes, the film does at times contradicts the novel. But where there are no contradictions the novel is considered canon.

Originally posted by Rookwood
The movie holds a higher Canon over the novel - and the movie doesn't have any of the bullshit lines from Mace that you stupidly listed above.

Now in the movie - which is the higher Canon - the lines are listed:
...
Gee, I don't see any dumb bullshit about Mace not being able to hold Sidious in there, did you?

Cool. Mace Windu's lines are contradicted, I wasn't relying on those as evidence, but rather the following:

"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

"Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Yeah, don't see that being contradicted by the film at all. Do you? Or are you somehow able to perfectly assess a character's thoughts during a film?

Originally posted by Rookwood
Seemed like it was 100% the opposite. Idiot.

I don't know whether your mother's umbilical cord strangled you while you were in the womb, and happened to cut off some blood flow to your brain, but I'd be willing to bet that probably did happen.

- So in the future, if you're going to assume someone is being insulting towards you - even though they're just being descriptive of how fvcking stupid you actually are - I would make sure to be right about what you type - Retard.

Now go back to your crib and eat some more baby food there.

😂

Ad hominems abound! I guess if you can't win a debate by being civil, trolling the opposition is the best way to have the opposition give up.

I understand you're still butthurt from the AotC Yoda vs Zonakin thread, but acting like an ass isn't going to work.

Originally posted by ares834
Then you fail to take into consideration multiple circumstances such as Mace Windu using Vaapad to defeat Sidious.

You're relying on the common ABC argument which is flawed when it comes to character battles.

Seriously, what the **** is you're god damn problem? Why the hell do you get so gad damned aggressive? Please, at least attempt at keeping some sense of civility.

And, yes, the film does at times contradicts the novel. But where there are no contradictions the novel is considered canon.

Cool. Mace Windu's lines are contradicted, I wasn't relying on those as evidence, but rather the following:

"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

"Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Yeah, don't see that being contradicted by the film at all. Do you? Or are you somehow able to perfectly assess a character's thoughts during a film?

😂

Ad hominems abound! I guess if you can't win a debate by being civil, trolling the opposition is the best way to have the opposition give up.

I understand you're still butthurt from the AotC Yoda vs Zonakin thread, but acting like an ass isn't going to work.

Originally posted by ares834
Then you fail to take into consideration multiple circumstances such as Mace Windu using Vaapad to defeat Sidious.

You're relying on the common ABC argument which is flawed when it comes to character battles.

Seriously, what the **** is you're god damn problem? Why the hell do you get so gad damned aggressive? Please, at least attempt at keeping some sense of civility.

And, yes, the film does at times contradicts the novel. But where there are no contradictions the novel is considered canon.

Cool. Mace Windu's lines are contradicted, I wasn't relying on those as evidence, but rather the following:

"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

"Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

I know I was totally in error about my last post, but I'm going to go ahead and fish for any kind of excuse I can, and just pretend I wasn't wrong about anything.

And you're still proving yourself to be an Idiot.

Yeah, go up again genius and read the verbatim lines from the film, again - and watch the movie - Mace didn't have the type of trouble the lesser Canon novelization weakly implied.

The only person out of strength was Sidious - as he kept stating, over and over.

Mace didn't state anything, except assertively redirecting Sidious's Lightning back into Sidious, until Sidious was incapacitated, moaning about how weak he was.

Mace was showed no weakness whatsoever - but for Sidious it was the opposite - as his moans would attest to.

In that way, and in the way of dialogue, the novel clearly contradicts the Canon of the film - which is what is correct here.

Now pull your head out of your ass.

Originally posted by ares834

I understand you're still butthurt from the AotC Yoda vs Zonakin thread

I actually forgot about that thread, due to other activities requesting my attention outside of this place, but I'll attend to it soon.

Originally posted by Rookwood
And you're still proving yourself to be an Idiot.

Yeah, go up again genius and read the verbatim lines from the film, again - and watch the movie - Mace didn't have the type of trouble the lesser Canon novelization weakly implied.

We see Mace struggling, we see him grimacing. So, no, it's not contradicted.

Originally posted by Rookwood
The only person out of strength was Sidious - as he kept stating, over and over.

Mace didn't state anything, except assertively redirecting Sidious's Lightning back into Sidious, until Sidious was incapacitated, moaning about how weak he was.

Mace was showed no weakness whatsoever - but for Sidious it was the opposite - as his moans would attest to.

You know Palpatine is faking there, right? As soon as Anakin cuts off Windu's arm Palpatine quits moaning, shouts in triumph, and once again begins his lightning. In fact, Lucas says Palaptine "pretends to lose his powers and be weak".

Originally posted by Arhael
Not true.
Something like this could happen, if he continued:

"When he paused, the apprentice sent a surge of Sith lightning under his guard.

The Jedi was caught in the flickering storm. His face twisted into a pained grimace. Then he brought his right arm down and placed the blade of his lightsaber directly in the lightning's path. The energy was absorbed by the blade, then bent back upon itself in a superconducting loop, striking its source with more energy than it had originally possessed. The apprentice stiffened as pain coursed up his hands and arms. The agony was unbearable-but hear it he did. His skin melted and warped all over his body, and he gagged on the stink of his own burning flesh. The pain and revulsion only fed the dark side, so the faster the lightning came back to him, the harder and stronger it flowed from him.

[b]The loop couldn't last forever. With a blinding blue flash he and the Jedi were blown far apart, crashing with arms out stretched into the walls of the hut and dropping to the floor. Then lightsabers skittered away in opposite directions, dead.

Flat on his back, the apprentice wheezed through his mask like an asthmatic Gand, only gradually regaining sensation in his arms and legs. His muscles twitched spastically when he tried to move. Acrid steam poured from his mask's narrow eye slits. Fearing that his Jedi opponent might be on his feet before him, he called on all the power of the Force to lift himself bodily into the air. Hanging suspended like a doll, with his feet some centimeters off the ground, he blinked his searing eyes until he could see again.

The Jedi was faring no better. He, too, was upright, but only just. He, too, had lost his lightsaber and not yet managed to claim it. The apprentice leered behind his mask. He had several other lightsabers to choose from, belonging to all the Jedi Knights he had killed. All he had to do was select one at random and strike

Instead he reached out with his left hand and, as his dark Master had done to the first Jedi killed on this spot, long ago, gripped his opponent about the throat with the Force. Still smoking from the lightning attack, the young man jerked abruptly into the air.

They faced each other across the ruined hut, neither touching the ground." [/B]

Wow. Well spotted!

And does it really say "superconducting loop"?? Interesting..

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean from Galen's crazy hallucinations in that hut?

How is that acceptable evidence for anything, it isn't real.

It's what would have happened if Galen chose to kill Vader and the darkside ending of TFUI took place.

Originally posted by ares834
Bull shit.

Yoda also failed to defeat Sidious. Does that make Windu superior?

Yeah I was exaggerating a bit there. But he should be sufficiently above them in Sabers at least Imho.

I guess it is possible Vader or Marek could Force Choke Mace, but if Sidious didn't do it, I'm not sure what the chances are that Vader or Marek will.

And Mace did defeat Sidious. I really don't see Vader(being 80% of Sidious) doing that unless he takes him from behind.(No pun intended).

Oh and Yoda only lost to environmental disadvantages. According to the script he beat Sidious quite comfortably in the Saber match. And we saw how he almost defeated him in the Force match as well.

Originally posted by ares834

"This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade."

"Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Yeah, don't see that being contradicted by the film at all. Do you? Or are you somehow able to perfectly assess a character's thoughts during a film?

Looked like he was fighting against his own blade just fine (He pushes it further towards Sidious' face):

YouTube video

Yeah, I'd say there's a slight contradiction there, rendering that part of the novel obsolete.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah I was exaggerating a bit there. But he should be sufficiently above them in Sabers at least Imho.

I'd agree with this.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and Yoda only lost to environmental disadvantages. According to the script he beat Sidious quite comfortably in the Saber match. And we saw how he almost defeated him in the Force match as well.

Yoda and Sidious came off as near equals in the film IMO. Sure, Yoda lost due to the environment but I don't think it Yoda outclasses Palps at all.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Looked like he was fighting against his own blade just fine (He pushes it further towards Sidious' face):

Yeah, I'd say there's a slight contradiction there, rendering that part of the novel obsolete.

I've had this argument before. I'm assuming you are talking about 3:12? Mace WIndu pushes forward there as Palps is letting up his attack. Also the editing there is bad and it seems Mace windu pushes his blade forward twice. Right there and at 3:18.

Well it could easily be mentioned in a sourcebook. I'm not sure if it has been, but I've not heard anything. Vader could also point it out, He does praise his abilities sometimes.

But I'm not sure why we should just assume he's completely mastered Juyo unless that's confirmed for us somewhere.

Also, info in books is subject to author's interpretation and opinion. For example, complete encyclopaedia states that Marek "ultimately was no match for Palpatine's power", however, that's not what happened in the book.

According to the script he battered Sidious in the Saber match. And at least matched him in their Force contest.

As for power Yoda failed to absorb his lightning at beginning. On platforms Sidious was throwing multiple platforms, while Yoda mostly dodged. Imho Yoda used Force more wisely conserving energy, which allowed him to stalemate Sidious at the end.

Vader on the other hand has been canonically confirmed by Lucas to be 80% as powerful as Sidious. Lucas also states in the ESB Audio commentary that Vader has "lost a lot of power in the force," comparing ESB Vader to pre-injury Anakin.

"The Force is the energy of the living. You interact with it, its eddies and flows, with your own living body. It's all right to have a mechanical part or two-an implant, a replacement foot. But for true Mastery in the Force, light side or dark side, you have to be mostly organic. I'm not, and so the greatest, the most significant powers, I can never learn."

Limiya stated that greatest powers cannot be learned, however, she never said that her regular powers got weaker.

"Nelani tried again, this time with the bust of the Bothan. It reached a halfway point between her and Lumiya, but the older woman reached out with her own free hand and the bust stopped in midair. Now it strained forward toward her; a moment later, it crept back through the air toward Nelani. It was a piece in a game of push-of-war between the women, and neither was winning.
The strain showed in Lumiya's voice, causing it to hoarsen.
...
Lumiya cast a sideways glance at the bust hovering between her and Nelani. It was beginning to creep back toward her, and the strain of keeping it at bay was showing on her face.
...
Lumiya closed her eyes and strained, but the bust still moved toward her.
...
Her last words were little more than a gasp, and her control slipped at that point."

Her Force struggle demonstrates that she is not weak in the Force, however, she gets exhausted faster than normal Force users. She was still capable to fight Mara and Luke on even terms. Even angered Luke only drove her back instead of outright stomping.

I think the way Lucas portrayed the Force is that greater power gives greater Force reserves, not stronger Force attacks. And I can support this idea with loads and loads of evidence.
Most notable one is Kenobi stalemating Anakin's Force push.
Yoda was more powerful than Dooku, however, he couldn't simply disarm him like in case with Ventress.
Yoda stalemated Sidious but them having perfect equal Force potential would be way too big coincedence. They had equal Force mastery but Sidious as more powerful had larger Force reserves.

I, also, can give many examples of prime Luke struggling against inferior Force users as well as stalemating far more powerful ones to support this idea.

Characters like Yoda, Windu, Dooku and especially Kenobi demonstrated that it is possible to stalemate far more powerful users both in combat and Force.

Back to Vader. Even in TFU II the clone was nearly getting overwhelmed by Vader's TK but after some struggle was overpowering him. It supports the idea that Vader's TK is as strong as prior to losing body parts as he still has got the same medichlorian count. However, on entering a Force contest he gets exhausted very fast and loses control.

According to Tempest a recent issue of Insider also claimed Yoda may be most skilled Saber duelist in the history of the Jedi.

If he was really Zonakin, Windu, Sidious level in Sabers, we really should have seen a few Saber Stomps Imho.

Also, I will refer to interpretation above that even with suprerior power he still needs to outskill other inferior characters that also achieved mastery in Force and combat or at least fight them until they get exhausted.

Actually yes it did look like he was trying to overwhelm Kenobi. The proof is the second Obi-Wan put his guard down he cut him down.

This fight might be an utter curbstomp in Sidious's favor depending on how much stock you put in the reliability of dark side endings.

In the dark side ending Galen had recently fought though the Death Star and then Vader twice in a row, while Sidious was well-rested. I doubt Sidious could treat him that casually if he's at 100%.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the dark side ending Galen had recently fought though the Death Star and then Vader twice in a row, while Sidious was well-rested. I doubt Sidious could treat him that casually if he's at 100%.

Marek showed no signs of exhaustion (nor do I recall any of them from the novel, which I admittedly don't have on-hand), in addition to the fact that we know Force users (Dooku) can replenish their energies pretty easily in even the most dire of circumstances.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This fight might be an utter curbstomp in Sidious's favor depending on how much stock you put in the reliability of dark side endings.

Considering in the DS ending Marek duels and "kills" a force ghost... none.

Originally posted by ares834
Considering in the DS ending Marek duels and "kills" a force ghost... none.

I believe you're referring to the DLC expansion, not the game itself.

Which is an extension of the dark side ending.